I've read a great number of threads here and still have a question or two about DCS wiring - sorry if it's been answered previously. I have rewired my layout using 14 gauge wire in the star pattern per Barry's rules (running from a modern ZW to MTH 12 Post Terminal Block then out to the track). The "DCS loop" is 19ft x 15ft with a long siding (15ft). The Loop has four drops/lock-ons - one in each corner. The siding has two (2) drops/lock-ons. The siding is NOT blocked so power is consistently on on the siding as it is on the outer loop.

Here's the question(s). Because the loop is fairly large do I need to break that loop into four (4) blocks - one block per power feed or can I leave it as one large loop and siding with the feeds as described? Would you suggest adding more drops/lock-ons?
My signal strength is running between 5 and 9 - no 10 anywhere. Radio Shack doesn't have 18VAC bulbs - just 14VAC so I do not have that in place yet. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
John

John,

Your layout will work fine with a 5-9 signal level. You might get occasional double commands due to the center rail receiving signals from multiple paths. I, personally, would not worry about it.

Earl

Hi Earl - Do you think adding an additional lock-on to the center of the loop on each side would help or hinder the wiring? One thread I read indicated that you can actually have too many drops. I've never heard that before, but I'm coming over from the TMCC side (still run it by the way - just wanted to get the wiring optimized for DCS) so I'm new to the DCS wiring. Seems to me it's a lot more finicky/demanding than wiring for TMCC.

You could split the loop in half, and use a TIU channel for each half, This way you get 2 signal generators working for you instead of 1.Don't insulate the outside rails just the center rail . I would think your just about maxed out signal wise for 1 channel. Just my opinion. You can use the same power supply for both channels.EX- Fixed 1 IN jumpered over to Fixed 2 in .The only thing you might need is an extra terminal block but with only 2 feeds you can probably do away with it.

Don't forget the light bulbs, they actually do work.

quote:

Originally posted by John Newberger:
Hi Earl - Do you think adding an additional lock-on to the center of the loop on each side would help or hinder the wiring? One thread I read indicated that you can actually have too many drops. I've never heard that before, but I'm coming over from the TMCC side (still run it by the way - just wanted to get the wiring optimized for DCS) so I'm new to the DCS wiring. Seems to me it's a lot more finicky/demanding than wiring for TMCC.

John,

If you are having trouble with engines slowing down due to power drops, then add the lock-ons. If there are no significant power drops, I would not add the lock-ons.

Good Luck...
Earl

I would try the easiest solutions first and then graduate to more complex wiring schemes. I'm running on the carpet about 8' x 12', nine switches with a Z4000 and about 8 or 9 power drops and not a single block anywhere except for one siding I've put an electrical switch on to cut power to a siding full of lit passenger cars. I've run up to four engines at one time, two PS2 and two TMCC, and the only time I ever have signal problems is if I haven't kept the track or engine rollers & wheels clean.

Gregg's suggestion is a good one. Ideally you'd insulate the center rail between each lock-on to create blocks, one feed per. The Radio Shack bulb #1447 is really an 18v bulb. For some reason they label it 14v.

Hi Earl - I guess my biggest issue is with jerky motion on the DCS units vs. Lionel and Atlas units on the same track. I'm told that DCS/MTH trains require significantly more care when wiring because of the way the signal gets transmitted but that their slow speed operation is excellent when all the details are in place. So I am trying to do EVERYTHING right short of soldering connections (its a dedicated floor layout). I do use 14 gauge stranded wire as I said and crimp on all connections - there is no wire buttonhooks under screws here. I had to send an AC4400 back to MTH - would not run under 6-7 SMPH - now I have a UP Heritage SD-70 and it will run at about 4 smph reliably with minimal jerks. By comparison though, the MTH will eventually lap any other TMCC equipped locos running at their lowest speed - no jerking/stuttering from those units. Am I asking too much out of the MTH diesels or is my wiring still in need of shoring up?

quote:

Jamesh1083

I run my DCS engine with the DCS Handheld and the TMCC with the TMCC handheld CAB-1. I never joined the TIU and the TMCC Base unit with the MTH cable because I was told in doing so - when using a ZW, it would render the TMCC handheld useless. I can run four (4) trains without issue under the current power feeds (one MTH - 2 ATLAS and 1 LIONEL), but as I was explaining to Earl, the MTH units do not run as smoothly at slow speeds. I was thinking this was a power issue. Now I don't know - do the diesel units run slower than 4 SMPH? I read on the forum that guys are running at 2 SMPH hauling freight. I'm not seeing that. Not with the diesels anyway.

I'm going back to Radio Shack (thanks Gary) and get the bulb - any other thoughts?

quote:

I read on the forum that guys are running at 2 SMPH hauling freight

Most of mine will do 2 SMPH, all will do 3 SMPH. I usually run with 18 volts on the track. How many miles do you have on them?? Several of my friends do an initial lube, run two hours in each direction and then lube again. It seems all of their engines do a good job at 2SMPH.

Gary - that's what I hear. I've also heard they need about 400 miles on the O.D. to break them in properly. The new Heritage has about 150 miles on it. Did your units start running at 3 SMPH right out of the box or was this after break in?

If I split the track in two halves using two (2) distinct TIU channels and one power supply, how exactly does that work in terms of wiring it up. Is there a diagram somewhere that you are aware of? Thanks in advance.

Hi John, You may find this interesting , A proto-2 engines carries on with the last command given until a new command is issued. I wouldn't get my hopes up expecting a better dcs signal will improve slow speed operation. Once a engine is issued a speed command , say 3 MPH, the engine will carry on at that speed no matter what the dcs signal is, even if there's no dcs signal at all.

Of course we want a good dcs signal for issuing commands.

It's not like TMCC when a engine loses the TMCC signal, it's suppose to stop, (or take off a full speed).

There's no reason why you can't run TMCC with the dcs remote & also the cab-1.

John

As noted above just remove the center track pin in one location to stop the signal provication and your signal will improve.

The jerky motion at slow speeds is normal if you go 3 SMPH or less 5 on steam. Oil the engine and run them for a while and they will improve I can get some to go 2 SMPH.

I have 20'X 20' loops and two breaks on the loop. If you blow fuses then I would consider adding another block and a second TIU output.

Jamie

Jamie - For some reason, I liked your answer! Thank you. I'll put a 1.750" piece of insulated track in the middle of the large loop (using Fastrack) and see what happens to the signal. Not blowing any fuses - told I do not need them with the Modern ZW by an MTH rep at York.

quote:

Originally posted by John Newberger:

quote:

Jamesh1083

I run my DCS engine with the DCS Handheld and the TMCC with the TMCC handheld CAB-1. I never joined the TIU and the TMCC Base unit with the MTH cable because I was told in doing so - when using a ZW, it would render the TMCC handheld useless. I can run four (4) trains without issue under the current power feeds (one MTH - 2 ATLAS and 1 LIONEL), but as I was explaining to Earl, the MTH units do not run as smoothly at slow speeds. I was thinking this was a power issue. Now I don't know - do the diesel units run slower than 4 SMPH? I read on the forum that guys are running at 2 SMPH hauling freight. I'm not seeing that. Not with the diesels anyway.

I'm going back to Radio Shack (thanks Gary) and get the bulb - any other thoughts?

John,

Your wiring will have no effect on very slow speed operation. MTH does not guarantee slow speed operation below 4 SMPH. I have one engine that runs very smoothly, even at 0.5 SMPH (yes, 1/2 SMPH). I have others that require 3-4 SMPH to operate smoothly.

You can try lubricating your engine, cleaning the wheels, rollers, and track. You can also increase the break-in time to improve slow speed operation.

Good Luck...
Earl

Earl - I essentially tore the layout down over the course of a weekend and the following rebuilt with 0-72 curves to accommodate larger engines. I spent a whole day cleaning track and rewiring using Barry's guidelines. Last night after removing a center pin per Jamie's suggestion the signal strength was actually worse so I recreated the larger loop by reinserting the pin. I think I'm going to add two (2) additional power feeds to dead center on each side of the loop and it will be what it is. I'll still pursue the light bulb however to see if this has any impact because it is a simple - low cost fix. I guess it boils down to me trying to fix a problem that is not a function of the track signal.

Thank you for your help and insight on this.

You may want to read this thread, I can almost guarantee a dcs signal of 10 on the whole layout. We're using 16 channels on a signal track layout. You have 3 spare other channels , Why not put one of them to work. Just my 2 cents.


http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/93360682/m/9921069274

Thanks Greg - I'm going to try experimenting I guess. I split the loop in half last night and the signal worsened. In this situation I'll try splitting things up into two channels. To do this I would just take half of the loop and split the center rail in two locations to create two (2) halves. Run the left side of the loop from TUI CHANNEL 1 (Fixed) and the right side from TUI CHANNEL 2 (Fixed).
The TUI is connected to one (1) post of four (4) posts on a modern ZW - that can remain unchanged (uses a 180W Brick) correct? Then both sides will function with a single handheld? Thanks for walking me through this!

quote:

The TUI is connected to one (1) post of four (4) posts on a modern ZW - that can remain unchanged (uses a 180W Brick) correct? Then both sides will function with a single handheld? Thanks for walking me through this!

Yep. You can also run conventional with one handle of the ZW for the post war stuff.

John

Something doesn't sound right if the signal got worse. Do you have a loose conncetion somewhere generating noise? When you cut the loop into two blocks try each side one at a time. That should have worked. Make sure you don't crose the TIU outputs. Can you leave a break in the layout into halfs and test the signal before you put the track back together.

I had a loop of track that gave me a fit for over a year and final found a loose conection on one of the outside rails, or it was a result of me cutting the outside rails when I installed MTH signals and needed the blocks.

You maybe farly close by to me. Your name rings a bell.

Are your lock ons lighted I thought you are using Real tracks which have the built in lamps. If so adding lamps may not help. 14v lamps will work briefly until the 18v burns them out.

Jamie

Hey Jamie - These connections are pretty tight. The crimped spades were treated with surgery like precision. The MTH 12 POST terminal block looks good. I'm going to get the 18 VAC bulb added and then try splitting it into two (2) TIU channels. I'm using Fastrack - most of it is fairly new or at least has not been broken down and reset up more than 5-6 times so the pins are tight. The stuff shines from cleaning before assembly. No lighted lock-ons anywhere - everything is connected to the underside of the track with the spades. I've gotta be honest - compared to Lionel TMCC this DCS will bust your chops. I mean getting it set up and running was a snap - but man the wiring to get a reasonably constant signal... wow. Bless you guys for hanging in there with me.

By the way - what do you mean by "cross the TIU inputs"? Do you mean get a drop from one track block on the wrong terminal strip? Or is there some other way I can screw this up?

John

Add the lamps even 14 volt will help alot. I misread and thought you had Real Tracks and had the lamps. You have to have the lamps to calm the signal. Try the lamps before you add the second channel. I have single loops 150' long with no problems.

If you cross two TIU outputs it will cancel out DCS and you will have nothing. It won't trip if there off the same transformer output. You'll never know except dcs won't work at all.

Try being the first person to use DCS we had a blast trying to figure it out a few years ago. I think we had contests to see who could throw there remote the farthest. Ernie found out about the light bulb real quick and that saved them.

Jamie

John,

Forget the terminal block for now. Disconnect all the wires from it. Run a pair of wires from Fxd 1 Out to one half of the loop and another pair of wires from Fxd 2 Out to the other half. Put power to both Fxd 1 In and Fxd 2 In. See if you don't have 9-10 everywhere. I think you're making it too complicated.

quote:

Originally posted by CSX FAN:
If you cross two TIU outputs it will cancel out DCS and you will have nothing. It won't trip if there off the same transformer output. You'll never know except dcs won't work at all.

If you cross the TIU outputs, won't you have a short circuit and trip the breakers?

Earl

Not if your on the same output on the transformer. I jump from input to input on my layout. IE fixed one to Var one from the same Z-4000 output. I don't draw that much power so they can share.

Reversing polarity or crowwing outputs on DCS cancels out the signal and you get nothing as a result.

As used in this case.

Jamie

Gary - with a single drop on each half of the loop - that won't be enough power to feed the loop. I had a diesel on the track as I was running wire. As I added feeds, I would power up the track to make sure everything worked. It takes at least three. What do you think?