I have a 8 x 12 layout and run 3 trains off a z1000 brick with DCS. My L.H.S. is trying to get me to buy a z4000. I do want to make the layout a few feet bigger maybe with another loop or 2. Isnt it cheaper in the longrun to just buy bricks as needed? Ive read some of Barrys book and just dont see the advantage of a z4000 for my size layout. What do ya think? Oh I forgot to say Ive been using 1 TIU and getting 1 AIU. T.Y.

quote:

Originally posted by sarge rmb:
I have a 8 x 12 layout; Isnt it cheaper in the longrun to just buy bricks as needed?

Sarge --

Ab-so-fruit-tooting-lutely. Look, Z1k bricks reliably deliver 6+ amps of sine wave, DCS-friendly, power with great over-load protection, dynamic headroom and low internal resistance (which means higher voltage under load delivered to yer engines).

You can easily run four trains with two Z1ks; wire another Z1k brick onto a second TIU channel and allocate yer blocks so one channel handles one loop and another the second and/or third smaller loops. 2.5 amps is a good conservative, upper bound, rule per engine / consist. So four or even five on two Z1ks is fine.

Personally, at $60/brick i'd get a third to run the accs and TIU on a separate brick.

Bottom line: for another ~$120 you can get all the power a 96 sq ft DCS layout ever needs. No cool "handles" for conventional or meters though.

-- gary ray

PS Ask me about the measurements i took tonight of my 180 power brick vs Z1k. Very interesting.

Gearbox thanks for the reply. One more ? Do I need to run aux power to feed the TIU? I know I can power TIU if I need it to download from the computer but do I need to add aux power while hooked up to Terminal 1? What real advantage is there to have supplimental power to the TIU? If there is a derailment the brick shorts so I still whould have to reset the TIU to get started again right? I just dont get why some have AUX power to TIU. Maybe Im confused.... T.Y.

quote:

What real advantage is there to have supplimental power to the TIU?

Since you purchased it, read pages 81-82 of The DCS O Gauge Companion and decide for yourself.

This and a whole lot more is all in "The DCS O Gauge Companion", available for purchase as an eBook from MTH's web store site!

Yep just read them Barry thanks Great Book! Question is.. dont I still need to restart TIU and remote after the brick blows, to reset TIU and engines? Aux power or not?

quote:

dont I still need to restart TIU and remote after the brick blows, to reset TIU and engines? Aux power or not?

Not if the TIU itself never lost power.

Thanks Barry I wasnt clear on that. Have a good one!

I also vote "yes" for the Z4K. In addition to being very powerful, it has a telephone jack in the back to plug in a transmitter so you can operate conventional trains from your handheld thru the TIU. Also EZ to program Protosounds locos. When I got back into O Gauge, I asked Jim Barrett for his recommendations and have been completely satisfied. In fact, if more beginners would seek advice from those who are experienced, (like Barry, Jim, etc) this forum wouldn't have a lot of the seemingly foolish and repetitive questions.
JMHO, Dave G.

quote:

Originally posted by sarge rmb:
What real advantage is there to have supplimental power to the TIU?

Sarge --

In addition to the compelling points that Barry makes about TIU power, i like a supply for the accs independent of track power. UCS tracks, in particular, suck amps and cause significant voltage drops and i'd prefer to have the track independent of those drops. It is not just the uncoupling tracks either: the "vibra-motor" accs (i have a horse corral) take a lot of current too.

As you noted, having the TIU independent of track shorts -- with their accompanying line spikes -- is another benefit.

I made a simple Y cable splitter so my TIU gets the full 18+ volts and run the other side to a spare Z "controller" so i can vary the acc voltage (as opposed to using the 14 volt tap on the brick).

If yer running dual-motored 50 year-old PW open frame motors pulling a long string of draggy, illuminated, PW passenger cars under conventional, by all means go Z4k. For just about anything else, the 6+ amp Z1ks do great and absolutely work extremely well on small to medium layouts under DCS. Cheap, scalable, reliable: what's not to like?

-- gary ray

Thanks Gear thats what I was wanting to hear.

Be careful, Sarge.

A long (12-15 car) lighted passenger train with a four motored diesel locomotive with two operating smoke units will draw in the neighborhood of 10 amps, way more than your Z1k bricks can provide.

In my experience, the need for power increases as we go along. Providing what seems like lots of excess power, soon becomes just enough.

Sarge --

Pat is absolutely right . . . and if that is your operational envelope, go for power bricks or Z4Ks.

But . . . fitting a 21 ft consist onto a loop that is at most 40 ft (about the most you can fit in your 96 sq ft layout) is probably not something that you are all that concerned about.

And that is, of course, my point. Z1ks work great in small to medium layouts precisely because the layouts themselves can not accommadate the kinds of trains that Pat cites. On that same 40 ft loop, though, you could easily run two or even three shorter consists on 6 amps.

Multi-unit lashups, smoke, grades, long strings of lighted cars (actually, about 1/3 amp/car), taken together will put you over the Z1k's capabilities though.

-- gary

All pretty interesting esp to one who uses the MTH brick with the handheld IR controller.
Actually two of them, one for main yard other for mainline.

Coming from the old days of HO, when electronics were just creeping into their power supply controls etc, I had built a momentum throttle for my modular switching layout.
Easily built, EZ tocontrol, etc. Adjustable momentum. All for DC of course......

SO

Has/is anyone built a momentum controller for our O AC powered locos?
Or know of a source for such a build it yourself unit?? And no, no 20 car trains...

TIA

Lars

quote:

A long (12-15 car) lighted passenger train with a four motored diesel locomotive with two operating smoke units will draw in the neighborhood of 10 amps,

Pat, I am running 19 cars and three MTH NOrtherns (Rdg, NW, and GN) without any issues on a Lionel 180 brick. While I have two Z4000s, a MRC Pure Dual Power, dual PW ZWs (for lights). I have added 5 180 bricks incrementally as I needed more power. I probably should have purchased an additional Z4K; however, the incremental addition was easier on my wallet.

Another thing to give thought to is that the Z4000 has the voltage and amp meters. The amp meter is very helpful when trying to diagnose a short circuit or determine what the problem is if you have a high current draw. If you have an engine that is starting to draw a high current due to a bind in the drive train or something it will shoe up on the Z4000 as a high current draw. You will not see this right away with the Z1000 until the engine starts slowing down or causes permanent damage. Another example would be you have an engine that is not smoking. Turn the smoke unit on there should be a little over amp increase in current. If there is no increase or an extremely high increase you would know there is a problem with the smoke unit circuit as opposed to maybe just too much fluid or a burnt wick. I bought my Z4000 primarily for trouble shooting.

A Z1000 is like a '63 Red Corvair Convertible Spider and a Z4000 is like a Sting Ray Split window.

Both get you there its a matter of glamor and style.

The Z1000 has al the power yet none of the pizazz!