Aren't these exactly like the R27's just a differant color and line???

When I was a kid and first saw these in service I distinctly remember that the red paint was glossy, not matte or flat, and that there was a nice round Transit Authority logo on them with a train kind of coming out at you. Anyone else remember those things? They're not on the picture of the new set.

I think the pictures speak for themselves West Side Joe...

R30 Subway

quote:

Originally posted by ranger4918:
Aren't these exactly like the R27's just a differant color and line???

Yup! and you even get to pay $100 more!

Already ranted in the other thread but...

The print is small - but at least it doesn't look like they referred to that thing as a Redbird - since it clearly is not. Looks like I just saved $700 I avoided the aggravation of the first problematic R27, and now I get to avoid it again.

I think it's time for MTH to release a real Redbird. Logos or not - if they get the paint right, we can make our own logos, although how great would it be if MTH figured out a way to get the license back and produce another logo'd set before Lionel ever does! That would be awesome!!! How about a Redbird R36WF?

same overpriced train, same stupid assed drawbars, same defunct route sign. probably same retarded and problematic electronics. all adjusted for inflation. Jerry Calabrese and the rest at Lionel sure have a lot of balls. I'll be waiting to see how this turns out....

with hope,it will blow up in their face.

Can't wait !

ughh why does this company do things like this??

Yup, I posted a rant awhile ago about this expensive R27 knockoff. What I can't figure out is since some of these trains didn't have the MTA logos on them when they were in service, why doesn't MTH produce them?

Hey Mike Wolf, time to come to the rescue (HINT HINT!!) seriously, we now live in an age where logos can easily be reproduced, and added on their own.They are nice looking trains, but I cant get over the **** drawbars, and they are gonna cost more than the Zephyr I want. 800 for a 4 car train? thats 200 a car!! WTF?

what is the main cause for all the animosity towards the Lionel subways? Is it just the price or are there other reasons. I do agree the price is very high, like you said 200 a car is ridiculous. Even the ggd passenger cars which are amazing are no where near as high. I would never buy one of these at these prices but are they worth it in a secondary market?

Stevin,

There are a few reasons. First, so many of us wrote to Lionel and requested them to make subways over the years, and they always scoffed and snubbed their noses at us. They always said they had no interest in making subways and that there was no market for such a thing. It was too "regional" and there wouldn't be enough people that would want them. Guess they failed to realize that NYC alone has around 8 million people, not to mention the millions of transplanted New Yorkers all over the country.

MTH came to our rescue, and it wasn't until MTH had been highly successful with over 13 models did Lionel start to consider making a subway. Then unfortunately MTH made a big mistake by marketing a graffiti subway against the MTA's wishes which put their licensing agreement in jeopardy. Also note that during this time MTH had started a great Christmas Layout display in the New York Transit Museum Annex in Grand Central Terminal. It was a brilliant idea and really helped promote the hobby. Well, Lionel sensed this weakness and the MTA's displeasure in the graffiti sets and jumped in. They managed to convince some weak-minded execs at the MTA to grant big L an exclusive license. So, MTH was no longer allowed to use logos on their products, and Lionel took over the GCT holiday display and we sat through 3 years of that display with no subways.

Now Lionel finally produced a subway, but they chose an original kale green scheme which didn't even make use of the precious logo they had succesfully blocked MTH from using. (Just look how Mike and MTH fought Union Pacific and won the rights for all companies to continue to use UP logos on their models). The kale green subway was actually probably a good move becuase all the "collectors" would buy the first Lionel subway regardless of color, scheme, logo etc. So out came their over-priced, problematic R27 with some neat features no doubt. Exec's grumble and moan and claim they will never produce another subway. Now they do decide to make another one, but of course they again choose a paint scheme that does not make use of the cherished logo. Now, you knock off all the "collectors" that had to have the first Lionel subway set, add the economic woes of many that might buy the set, raise the price $100, and produce another logoless set that knocks the rest of us out - and we'll see how many of these if any ever get made. Where's the silver and blue stripe MTA colors with M logo set? Or a true Redbird that would capture the imaginations of many New Yorkers as being so recognizable as the train they rode during the past 20 years which would also include the M logo.

Guess you can say the resentment runs a little deeper than just the price on one set.

yeah, that sums it up. But just to add the number of quality complaints that have come up. The M7 sets could have been made to a more realistic length, for example. Too much of their stuff seems toylike as well. The trestles for Fastrack are ridiculous, but the track is too wide to use the somewhat more realistic MTH ones. It seems to me that for what they charge they should at least be able to do a better job on some of this stuff, instead of coasting on the legacy of their name.

quote:

Originally posted by ranger4918:
I think the pictures speak for themselves West Side Joe...

R30 Subway

Yes, indeed, they do.

Anyway, I was thinking of a different car, the R29. This is the one I remember, and this is a 1962 photo. The logo is there, but is not the MTA logo, it is the NYCTA logo with the car coming out at you. Now, I'm not an expert on subway cars, so please forgive the possibly stupid question: is the R30 just a wider version of the R29? So would it not be reasonable to assume Lionel's R30 should look like this picture?

Wider, longer and an extra set of doors.

NYSubway,

Thanks so much for the informative subway history with Lionel and MTH-didnt know that the issue was that long and complicated.
My feeling is that even though Lionel's price is high-much more than I would pay, Im wondering if they are even making much profit because of the higher detail, engineering and warranty issues involved with the working doors. Not sure if it is due to licensing issues,but MTH is at fault also for not re-issuing some of the more popular sets such as the World's Fair, R-32, R-1, R-21 and R-17, some of which are fetching comparable used prices on e-bay(an R-32 sold recently for 885.00 and some other character has been trying to sell one at 1499.00 for some time now)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: dlonra556,

Chris (NYSubway18) really nailed it with the above post. Big pass on this set.

Nobody wants to model the Brighton line more than me. But Im passing on this one.. Make an R68 (Q) Train!

Chris, you silver-tongued devil you. You totally nailed it, the final word, amen (I hope).

Yeah, I'll take a six car set.

quote:

Originally posted by NYSubway18:
Stevin,
Then unfortunately MTH made a big mistake by marketing a graffiti subway against the MTA's wishes which put their licensing agreement in jeopardy. Also note that during this time MTH had started a great Christmas Layout display in the New York Transit Museum Annex in Grand Central Terminal. It was a brilliant idea and really helped promote the hobby. Well, Lionel sensed this weakness and the MTA's displeasure in the graffiti sets and jumped in.

this is mere spread rumor among the masses.......chris the rest is corect,but the graffiti part isnt. i spoke to mth representatives personaly at york and the man himself.it wasent about graffiti,it was about who would pay the most $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for the rights to the logo,MTH lost because LIONEL had deeper pockets.graffiti had nothing to do with it.

I'm buying them I love the R27 set Who cares about a logo There are enough different decals out there to do whatever you want.

ill probably get em also,am just an yied about the logo.for 800$ it should be a model that has the logo.

I think they just bought the rights to pis off MTH, not to actually use it. They look nice, but after reading the issues some people had with the 27's, and the sticker price, I'd rather get an extra 100 bucks and get the R11/34 AND the R142, or just get the Zephyr I wanted.

CC - I'll trust my sources anyday over the "company line".

thats going to look great at the layout hope to see it soon

`

quote:

Originally posted by CCrider:

quote:

Originally posted by NYSubway18:
Stevin,
Then unfortunately MTH made a big mistake by marketing a graffiti subway against the MTA's wishes which put their licensing agreement in jeopardy. Also note that during this time MTH had started a great Christmas Layout display in the New York Transit Museum Annex in Grand Central Terminal. It was a brilliant idea and really helped promote the hobby. Well, Lionel sensed this weakness and the MTA's displeasure in the graffiti sets and jumped in.

this is mere spread rumor among the masses.......chris the rest is corect,but the graffiti part isnt. i spoke to mth representatives personaly at york and the man himself.it wasent about graffiti,it was about who would pay the most $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for the rights to the logo,MTH lost because LIONEL had deeper pockets.graffiti had nothing to do with it.

Knowing the MTA I suspect there is some truth to that story, if it isn't the total picture. I know that the MTA has denied filming rights for film productions if they were going to show 1970's era train stations and trains "graffitied up", or worse, if the move portrayed modern trains with graffitti. When I was in grad school a number of years ago, one of my fellow students and I became friendly, and at the time he was one of the TA's senior electrical engineers. We got to talking about the subways (he was old guard TA, i.e one of the people who worked there who actually loved them and was as much a fan as any of us), and he said that when it came to graffitti, or what they saw as promoting graffitti, they had a zero tolerance policy. He mentioned that he knew of cases where writers who wanted TA interviews or permission to see the yards and such, were given the cold shoulder because they had written articles about graffitti saying it was art, etc........

I also suspect that if the MTA had in fact pulled the license from MTH for producing the graffitti train, they would not tell the truth about it, and for a very good reason, they would not want to burn bridges, in the hope that someday they could get the permission back, once Lionel's license expired or otherwise came due.

I don't know the real answer to this, it could be it was simply $$$, but knowing the MTA's stance on graffitti, the popular story has a strong ring of truth to it to me, that it is likely it was part of the answer, along with $$$.

Whats the big deal anyway? I don't understand whay someone cant simply make the trains without the logos. Im sure someone who wanted them would find a way to get them. the MTA hasnt exactly stopped anyone from making models, have they?

I too was taken back when I saw the price. However once you read the details - operating doors etc then you can realize the price increase. The question is how reliable are these operating doors and how long will they last. To pay the price for something that may last only a year is not in my playbook. For the Acela crowd who runs that train regularly, Are there any door problems?? Probably same tecnology from same company. That should give us a better idea as to whether it is worth the money.
Larry S