Fellas
Looking for a couple of questions answered regarding On30 vs On3
1. I know track gauge is differant, On30 HO gauge?
2. Locos & cars. Other than truck gauge to match track is there a size difference in locos and cars, On30 vs On3
3. Structures, same as #2.

Mike P

On30" vs On3

Matt

Matt
Everything I've tried, comes up as nothing on file, HELP
Mike

Bummer dude.

Hey, I know you, you're the fella that lists items on the Buy/Sell/Wanted board and then cross-posts those items on the other boards.

TOTAL bummer dude.

On30" vs On3

Matt

1/2 way down the page...........

http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve...91043574/m/499105002

Matt(OLD GOAT)
I can certainly figure out why you have the name of OLD GOAT. Can you answer anyone civily?
Mike

Ease up on the Goat Michael, if you had come over on the Mayflower, you would be a little cranky as well.
Al

Al
The problem is I see him with more negative answers then positive. That is why a lot of model railroaders have been turned off from the whole OGR forum. If someone dosn't want to answer civily, then don't comment. You on the other hand have always givven me sage & civil advice, thanks.
Mike

quote:

Originally posted by H Michael Pierce:
That is why a lot of model railroaders have been turned off from the whole OGR forum.
Mike

No, more likely it's because they're tired of folks that feel the Forum rules don't apply to them:



...those that are too lazy to locate answers for themselves or they're tired of those that don't have the common courtesy to say "thanks" when someone does the work for them (see Martin's reply above).

Now, how about a narrow gauge group hug and a heartfelt round of Kumbaya. C'mon Mike and Al, you two start...

Matt

quote:

Looking for a couple of questions answered regarding On30 vs On3
1. I know track gauge is differant, On30 HO gauge?
2. Locos & cars. Other than truck gauge to match track is there a size difference in locos and cars, On30 vs On3
3. Structures, same as #2.

1. Yes, On30 trains run on HO track, although a "true" track gauge for On30 would be a tiny bit off the HO gauge--definitely not enough to even notice. On3 uses On3 track, which is a bit more difficult to find in ready-made form, but certainly not impossible to find (see NG&SL Gazette for dealer ads).

2. There is no size difference between models produced for On30 and On3 when it comes to the models themselves. Some manufacturers today offer the same model in either On30 or On30 versions (the Accucraft Plymouth switcher I received last week being just one example). HOWEVER, it's important to keep in mind that narrow gauge railroads used locomotive and car sizes that ranged all over the place, so there is no real "standard" for any particular gauge. Often enough, these lines built or modified their own equipment to meet their own needs.

3. Any O scale structure is appropriate for On30 or On3, consistent with the period and area being modeled, of course.

Final note: This narrow gauge forum, along with a couple other forums here, have traditionally been free of fussing, fuming, and personality "issues." Let's keep it that way!

Allan,
I was just trying to put a little humor in to defuse what I considered a possible feud. I apologize to you who I have offended. Kumbaya, Hug and a Big Smooch.
Al

My comment wasn't directed at you, Al. No apologies necessary.

All right, here's your Hug Matt, no fued or hard feelings. Big thanks to all for any info.
Mike

Whew!! A narrow escape.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan Miller:
My comment wasn't directed at you, Al. No apologies necessary.

I know that Allan, but I may have tripped some one else's trigger.
That is who the post is directed to.

Now, lets all stop this misdirection of a valid thread.
Al

If the owners and possibly more astute of the readers and answeers of questions and others would begin use some of the correct terminology and stop using such inaccuracies as On30 /SCALE where it it really O scale and 30 inch gauge, , as an example, they people just might going to learn , if they gave it a try, to understand the difference between scale and gauge, There is also bit of personal responsibility for the participants of the hobby to do a little of personal research on their own. Maybe we would collectively begin to understand that people, buildings, automobiles and so on listed as I would see that any O Gauge is computable. But as long and the Magazines continue to list items as I, O-22,In30, and On3, the modeler will not truly understand that O is a SCALE and not a a particular Gauge.

Remember back when we 'old timers didn't have the i-net where we could not just throw out a question and there'd be all sorts of rather accurate answers, some some very inaccurate at best . Even the "IAms" of the OGR administration still quite often use incorrect,inaccurate terminology.


I do believe that there are size differences between the rolling stock of On30 and On3, mainly because In30 is smaller gauge therefor smaller equipment, Remember also, the On30 that we model here in US, as we model it, is almost definitely an fantasy gauge,,,, The class Narrow Ga RR's in the US were 36 inch gauge, and not 30 inch gauge. Mexico and Cuba, 2 countries which come to mind ran 30" ga narrow lines. Not the US, of course there are a couple exceptions.

Back to the original::::

quote:

Fellas
Looking for a couple of questions answered regarding On30 vs On3
1. I know track gauge is differant, On30 HO gauge?
2. Locos & cars. Other than truck gauge to match track is there a size difference in locos and cars, On30 vs On3
3. Structures, same as #2.

1------- It is NOT HO gauge track, the ties should be O SCALE ties

2-------- Yes size differences between , because of the 5" difference of gauge

3-------- structures are O Scale,,, = 1/4" = 1'-0"

Scale and Gauge are NOT interchangeable words,,, they are spelled differently and also have definite definitions. Get used to it and try doing it correctly. his from a dump redneck hillbilly from E Tenn.

I beg to differ on the cars.

My San Juan, Grandt line and Accucraft cars are the same size whether in ON3 or ON30. The only difference is the gauge. Bachmann cars are smaller, but they are also modeled after a different sized car, so even though they are smaller, they are the correct size, "O" scale.

Even though HO track can be used for ON30, O scale narrow gauge track looks a lot better, because the tie spacing and the rail code is correct.

I also agree that, I wish folks would stop confusing scale with gauge.

quote:

I do believe that there are size differences between the rolling stock of On30 and On3, mainly because In30 is smaller gauge therefor smaller equipment, Remember also, the On30 that we model here in US, as we model it, is almost definitely an fantasy gauge,,,, The class Narrow Ga RR's in the US were 36 inch gauge, and not 30 inch gauge. Mexico and Cuba, 2 countries which come to mind ran 30" ga narrow lines. Not the US, of course there are a couple exceptions.

Sorry, Ed, but I don't agree with the above. Most model manufacturers who are offering On3 and On30 equipment today offer items made to the same scale (1:48), with only the wheelsets being re-gauged for one or the other track gauge. There are many examples available. And it's simply wrong to label 30" gauge as a "fantasy gauge"--definitely a "minority gauge," but by no means fantasy, even in the U.S.

On30 as an American narrow gauge is about as reasonable as modern 5' gauge railroads (2 or 3 rail). But, it is more accessible than On3. Both On3 and On30 can be modeled on a budget or both can be incredibly expensive. Last time I checked, there aren't any coal fired On3 or On30 locomotives...so compromises are in order. Further, nearly all of the On30 items can be converted to On3...and most On3 rolling stock can be converted to On30 (cars with wide frames such as certain log cars and SUF cars require major surgery).

Of the existing On30 models...
B-man
-Rogers only produced one ng locomotive...I don't know if it is the B-man model or not...but I'd gladly chalk it up as a freelance locomotive that is close enough to be 30" or 3' gauge.
-The IF 4-4-0 and forneys are 2' gauge
-The 4-6-0 is 3' gauge
-The 2-8-0 is supposedly 30" gauge, but is close to perfect for some US 3' locomotives
-The OF 4-4-0 and 2-6-6-2 are 30" gauge
-The dinkys could be any gauge
-The shay is pretty close to the catalog offering (original configuration) for the oldest surviving shay...the Mich-Cal Lumber Co shay...a 3' gauge engine...but I could see it or the climax as being several different gauges just like the dinkys

Some of the rolling stock is based on 3' gauge practice...some of it on 2' practice. I'm under the impression that the OR&W boxcar came first...and the other freight cars, which aren't perfect matches for OR&W stuff...or anything...were adaptions utilizing the boxcar's frame/parts. That OR&W boxcar was one of the smallest 3' gauge cars in service after the ICC killed most of her kin. The shortness is great for tight curves. The width works with the narrow track. And I through my hands up and applaud at it not being another 3000 series boxcar which was unique to the Rio Grande.

I do agree that mainline 30" gauge is largely a fantasy gauge...but I don't really see a problem with it. There was only 40 miles of 30" gauge common carrier railroad in the US...over half of it in Hawaii on a pair of interesting short lines. But industrial 30" gauge lines were not uncommon and the equipment is excellent for that. I personally find a 30" gauge US line far more believable than a freelance road with all D&RGW equipment...which is a common fantasy.

I feel that the temptation for On3 modelers is to stick too closely to off the shelf Rio Grande items...even though they aren't modeling it...and it results in a lack of original/distinct equipment. Some roads were built with ex-D&RG equipment...but that was in the 19th century when the D&RG was standard gauging and hence had tons of surplus equipment. The Montana Southern was the last of these "castoff equipment" narrow gauge roads, built with F&CC equipment during WW1. But there are also the San Cristobal and Bellevue & Cascade examples as well...which were existing lines reborn.

I feel that the temptation for On30 modelers is to decide that since they are "freelance", standard practices don't apply to them. HO Heisler drivers are TOO small for O scale...I've seen some really wonderful craftsmanship undercut by mechanisms which aren't close to scale...whether rod engines or geared. Track can also be an issue. Perhaps you could say that it is the exact opposite problem that many On3 modelers have.

Fine products are offered in both On30 and On3. There are people on here in both gauges with excellent examples of each. If the track gauge doesn't bother you, than it works just fine. If you don't mind modeling a fantasy On3 Rio Grande, then it is perfectly fine.

I typically try to follow the rules rather than the exceptions...and specifically follow the DSP&P's standard practices. Yet, I have fantasy rail on my layout that is a scale 144' long...and there are no fish plates on my rail. My layout regularly sees equipment from various NG roads...Colorado and other...truly a fantasy. I also shun smoke...I don't think it looks remotely realistic...and so my smoke equipped locomotives never get smoke fluid...yet real locomotives do produce smoke.

On30 vs. On3 is more a matter of beauty in the eye of the beholder than most alternatives in our hobby. I doubt that anyone would pick On30 if they were scratch building everything without commercial support, but we are in a hobby that is largely driven by what is profitable to produce...and few would be active in it without tons of commercial support. RTR non-brass On30 offers more variety than On3. On3 offers a closer fidelity to prototype than On30. I love to covert the cheaper On30 models to On3...as I'd much rather perform surgery on an $80 On30 mogul than an $400 On3 mogul.

I prefer to see models that are well thought out and executed...On2, On30, or On3.

Michael

Allan,

quote:

Originally posted by Allan Miller:

quote:

I do believe that there are size differences between the rolling stock of On30 and On3, mainly because In30 is smaller gauge therefor smaller equipment, Remember also, the On30 that we model here in US, as we model it, is almost definitely an fantasy gauge,,,, The class Narrow Ga RR's in the US were 36 inch gauge, and not 30 inch gauge. Mexico and Cuba, 2 countries which come to mind ran 30" ga narrow lines. Not the US, of course there are a couple exceptions.

Sorry, Ed, but I don't agree with the above. Most model manufacturers who are offering On3 and On30 equipment today offer items made to the same scale (1:48), with only the wheelsets being re-gauged for one or the other track gauge. There are many examples available. And it's simply wrong to label 30" gauge as a "fantasy gauge"--definitely a "minority gauge," but by no means fantasy, even in the U.S.

Again YOU are confusing scale from gauge. I've tried explaining that to you in the past, and apparently you are incapable of understanding the difference. Scale represents a proportionate size of a product compared to the original, and gauge, when related to railroad tracks is the distance from inside of rail to the opposite rail. NOT center lines.

Of course all the scale manufacturers of O Scale products are making the products at a proportion of 1 [model size]: 48 [actual size] or could be stated 1/4" = 1'-0", of 1/48 size. There are several ways to describe the 'Scale'

As to my comment of fantasy, please provide list a several 30" gauge real railroads here in the USA [which most modelers emulate] in On30. The 36" gauge Railroads are the ones we model in 30" gauge, which makes it fantasy. We'll make up fictitious Railroad names, and model them in 30" gauge [fantasy]. I believe there is one tourist line in the SW now with an original Baldwin 30" locomotive, but it's origin is Mexico. Both Mexico and Cuba, have/had numerous 30" ga. railroads, but, we, for the most part do not model them. We do model USA 30" ga. railroads which, again for the most part is fantasy. To my limited knowledge, the major 36" ga. a/k/a 3' ga. railroads were the East Tennessee and West North Carolina, the East Broad Top, the Rio Grande, and the Colorado Southern. The Southern Pacific also had narrow ga. operations. Many many model them using HO ga. mechanism, which is fantasy. I know there are more in 3' ga. but please list 30" USA operations which carried common freight and passengers, as we model in 30" ga.

Major 30" gauge manufacturer for US modelers, Bachmann : Rail Bus, was actually standard ga. modeled in 1/4" scale, 30" ga. They say, many of the locomotives are actually quite accurate O scale (1:48) renditions of 3' ga locomotives, but on 30" ga. mechanisms. Fantasy. If we are modeling actual 3' gauge models and running them on HO track, that is fantasy. Actually it isn't even 30" gauge, when you do some accurate measuring. I'm definitely not using the fantasy as a pejorative, but rather saying what it is.

almost like the MTH Coors Fantasy thingy

Please remember who is writing this, a plain ole Redneck from E Tenn, who usually isn't too bright.

Allan, Did you ever dig into the bit of information about Tom Landrigan, as being one of the originators of On30? IIRC, you indicated that you would, but not having seen anything written up on OGR, I just am wondering?


Ed Reutling

I believe that the term "fantasy" is being confused with "free-lancing".

The modeling of a "what if" railroading situation has been a large part of model railroading history. John Allen's G&D and Frank Ellison's Delta Lines are, of course, the first two that come to mind.

Neither was modeled on an actual prototype, but I would hesitate to use the word "fantasy" to describe the efforts of either of these gentlemen. (except maybe for the stegosaurus that John Allen used for switching in a remote area )

Not everyone is interested in modeling an actual railroad town by town or tie by tie. A "fictional" free-lanced railroad may have used equipment very similar to that of established 3 ft gauge lines, but re-gauged for 30" between the rails. A 30" right-of-way may have paralleled the mainline of actual 3 ft gauge railroads, hence the similarity in scenery.

Many free-lanced model railroads are as believable in detailing and operations as any based on an actual prototype. The fact that they didn't actually exist doesn't make these models second-rate in my book. In a way, it is more difficult to build a believable free-lanced railroad than one that simply copies a prototype.

I'm afraid it is time to point out yet one more time (I've lost count of the number! ) that this is a many-faceted hobby. I would never criticize anyone's decision as to what combinations of motive power or rolling stock are selected for their railroad.

Any other old timers remember the time when Walthers produced Penn Central steam loco decals? That was good for several months of irate letters to the editor in Model Railroader magazine, most written by modelers intolerant of the rights of the manufacturer to fill the wants of all in this hobby. Many of us want the excellent line of On30 products to continue and expand, despite the fact that their resemblance to actual prototypes may be murky at best!

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Policastro:
Any other old timers remember the time when Walthers produced Penn Central steam loco decals?
Jim

For a guy who came over on the Mayflower, how could I forget that debacle!

Matt

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Policastro:
I believe that the term "fantasy" is being confused with "free-lancing".

I think it depends on the definition of each. I consider free-lance to be something which follows standard practices...but not any particular railroad. The sort of thing which could leave a visitor wondering if it was a real railroad or not (kind of like the band Spinal Tap). I consider fantasy to be something which violates the standard practices...such as shays with a single cylinder, heislers with undersized wheels, and physical in practicalities. I consider Malcolm Furlow to be more fantasy than John Allen. Where does On30 gauge fall...I'm not entirely certain...but just like On3, I feel that it can fall on either side dependent upon the modeler. Perhaps fantasy is poor freelancing, perhaps it is really creative modeling, or maybe it is just dragons riding in passenger cars! Think a little of it is mixed into everyone's model railroad.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Policastro:
I'm afraid it is time to point out yet one more time (I've lost count of the number! ) that this is a many-faceted hobby. I would never criticize anyone's decision as to what combinations of motive power or rolling stock are selected for their railroad.

It is a hobby. Nothing ruins it like a breakdown in manners. It is one thing to help someone avoid a mistake...it is something else to be a jerk about what they've done. When I see something like that bizarre 15" gauge N&W J at Train Festival, the best thing for me to do is remember my Grandt Line porter pulling C&S freight cars...and politely smile at the person so excited over their joy that makes no sense to me...for it isn't that dissimilar to what I do.

Michael

Well stated, Michael.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Vulcan:
Whew!! A narrow escape.

Doesn't look that way. Any guests reading this thread might have second thoughts about joining this group.

c..CCC...CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG...?

Now I undersand how wars begin.....with little understanding of any problem..
This thread is of little use except to be removed..

quote:

This thread is of little use except to be removed..

Maybe you're right. I think that most of what has been written has good intentions, but it has more potential to be damaging than edifying.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Old Goat:

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Policastro:
Any other old timers remember the time when Walthers produced Penn Central steam loco decals?
Jim

For a guy who came over on the Mayflower, how could I forget that debacle!

Matt

Goat,
You have a lot of company who came on the Mayflower with you. And we are spending more or prescriptions than we are on out toy trains.
My definition of a toy train is any train that is built to any scale less than 12 inches to the foot. Maybe fantasy, but, like Jiminez says, It may not be much, but it is mine. Let us always remember this when discussing our likes and dislikes.
Al

quote:

Originally posted by AL CLAIR:

Goat,
You have a lot of company who came on the Mayflower with you. And we are spending more or prescriptions than we are on out toy trains.

Al

Well that certainly caught my attention. I'm 48 but I guess I've been in Old Goat territory for the past 9 years. I've had 4 back surgeries and if I had my prescription money available for trains (even with a pretty good prescription plan) I'd have a couple of hundred dollars a month for trains. So I understand your position. Dave