IF YOUR INTEREST IS ON3 OR ON30, USE THIS THREAD TO POST YOUR IDEAS, COMMENTS, QUESTIONS OR PHOTOS YOU WISH TO SHARE. ANY ONE POSTING A COMPLAINT ABOUT LIONEL, MTH, OR ANY OF THE 3 RAIL SUPPLIERS WILL BE SUBJECT TO BEING SHOT. (HOMELAND SECURITY, THIS IS JUST A JOKE.)
AS TIME PASSES AND THIS THREAD GETS OLDER YOU CAN FIND IT BY GOING TO THE 2-RAIL FORUM, CLICK ON FIND, TYPE IN NARROW GAUGE. (HERE IS HOPING I HAVE IT RIGHT.
THE OBJECT IS FIND POSTS TO THOSE OF US WHO HAVE FALLEN MUCH FASTER.
YOUR TURN GUYS AND GALS,
AL
P.S. NO GAP PHOTOS

Hello Al,

You have a good idea. I'm a new convert to narrow gauge (On3) after having been in HO and more recently in two-rail O scale, both modeling SP steam in the late 1940s.

There is something unique and quaint about narrow gauge. It can be quite "homegrown" or very mainline like the D&RGW. Short, slow trains are very prototypical and easy to model. Their operations usually ran through small towns in rough terrain; these lend themselves to many modeling opportunities. Since my planned layout will be rather small, I can emphasize fewer but more detailed scenes. It's a good fit for my modeling desires.

Narrow gauge permits me run O scale equipment in a smaller space since I don't need four or five feet radius curves for standard gauge O scale locomotives. The building and rolling stock kits available in O scale are quite impressive with all of their detail. As a senior citizen, I appreciate larger detail parts.

There are many fine locomotives available in On3 and On30 ranging from relatively inexpensive to high-price brass. My first On3 locomotive is a MMI C-19 Consolidation. I'm very impressed with its detail and mechanical performance. Mine has a Tsunami decoder with very realistic sound and lighting effects. I don't plan to have a huge fleet of engines or cars like I had in HO. These, however, will be more detailed and weathered; more quality rather than quantity. Same for structures - fewer but better.

I'm still working out details of my era, probably southern Colorado or northern New Mexico in the 1930s using D&RGW equipment. Industry will be ranching, small lumber operations and coal and coke production. I may introduce the beginning of oil and gas exploration that boomed in the 1950s in New Mexico.

As with any model railroad, the beauty (and fun) is in the eye of the beholder and builder. The whole idea is to have fun and not get hung up on too many details or historical facts. While I enjoy following prototype practices, I'll bend them if it serves my purpose.

What are your thoughts, fellow narrow gaugers?

Paul S

PAUL,
SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD PLAN TO ME, VERY SIMILAR TO MY WAY OF THINKING. I AM REDUCING THE AMOUT OF 3R I HAVE, AND WILL FIT MY ON30 INSIDE OF THE 3R. WITH 10,5' BY 19.5' I HAVE A LOT OF SPACE. THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT.
LETS HOPE WE HEAR FROM SOME OF THE REST OF YOU.
AL

For many years I have been in turmoil, HO or O scale. I like the idea of HO, you can put a lot into a small space. But the size of O scale in magnetic. I keep coming back.

Discovering On30 has been a god send to me. I will go the On30 route, due to the fact I have a lot of HO track, and Bachmanns equipment is very affordable. I also plan on down sizing the size of my O scale. No more modern equipment. A small steam engine, and some 1920's cars, and I will be happy. This gives me lots and lots of trains to sell. Not ot mention the space I will get back.

My railroad will be loosely [very loose] based on a railroad in northern minnesota. It was not a narrow gauge railroad, but it did have lots of looging and mining. Plus it is where I am from.

At some point I would like to get a couple of MMI engines, and build some of those cool car kits, but for right now Bachmann will do just fine.

Bruce

You may want to reconsider using your HO track to represent O narrow gauge (ON30). The HO track has tie size and spacing for standard gauge. Most narrow gauge was built to looser standards. So two things, even though narrow gauge, the O scale ties would be larger. And then because of the looser standaards, they would be much farther apart.

Part of the appeal of narrow gauge is the rustic look, and the rickety looking track contributes to this. Look at some photos of narrow gauge track.

A nice feature of narrow gauge lines is that a lot of them used little if any ballast, makes gettting that part of the scenery easy.

PECO makes ON30 narrow gauge track and switches.

Coincidence or not, I just got this advertisement from Micro-Mark this morning:



Lovely set of Buggy cars.

Yves

MICRO ENGINEERING IS NOW MAKING ON30 TRACK WHICH IS USA PROTOTYPE WHILE PECO, A GOOD QUALITY TRACK IS PATTEREND AFTER EUROPEAN PROTYPE. IF I WERE TU USE HO TRACK, I WOULD USE IT WHERE IT WOULD BE OUT OF SIGHT. THE DIFFERENT LOOK BETWEEN THE TWO IS QUITE OBVIOUS.
AL

YVES,
THOSE ARE NEAT CARS, THEY LOOK AS LIKE THEY COULD BE USED AS RAILROAD PORT-A-POTIES. JUST PUT A VENT STACK ON THEM.
AL

WHAT'S ALL THE SHOUTING ABOUT??....dave

I think Al has said before he has poor vision and CAPS help him read.

OK THEN HAVE AT IT ...DAVE

quote:

Originally posted by prrjim:
You may want to reconsider using your HO track to represent O narrow gauge (ON30). The HO track has tie size and spacing for standard gauge. Most narrow gauge was built to looser standards. So two things, even though narrow gauge, the O scale ties would be larger. And then because of the looser standaards, they would be much farther apart.

Part of the appeal of narrow gauge is the rustic look, and the rickety looking track contributes to this. Look at some photos of narrow gauge track.

A nice feature of narrow gauge lines is that a lot of them used little if any ballast, makes gettting that part of the scenery easy.

PECO makes ON30 narrow gauge track and switches.

Point well taken, but I already have quite a bit of Micro engineering track, so that is not an issue. Switches are a diferent story. Plus I am not that fussy. Maybe later I will have to change things, but by that time I will be changing things anyway.

Have any of you switched wheelsets in Bachmann On30 cars to On3? I've looked at NWSL info but am still confused as which ones I need. Until I get my San Juan car kits completed, I'm considering buying a few Bachmann cars to operate with. These would not be as fragile as the San Juans when my grandson wants to run my train.

Paul S

DAVEB
I GUESS YOU COULD REFER TO ME AS THE LITTLE ABNER CHARACTER "COUSIN WEAK EYES". NO OFFENSE TAKEN.
DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW ALLAN MILLER IS COMING ALONG ON HIS LAYOUT. HE HAS BEEN PRETTY QUIET LATELY.
HOW DO YOU RATE THE NEW BACHMANN 4-4-0 IF YOU HAVE ONE?
AL

quote:

DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW ALLAN MILLER IS COMING ALONG ON HIS LAYOUT.

Coming along nicely, Al! Thanks for asking.

Benchwork is up; plywood platform now covers the benchwork; track was temporarily laid on the plywood to come up with a track plan (a very simple one); wood risers have been secured to elevate the layout above the plywood platform (I originally intended to use sheets of Extruded Polystyrene, but have decided to try another approach); and I expect to have the top level of the layout, complete with track, in place by the end of this weekend. If all goes well, a train or two will take a test run over the entire layout by SuperBowl kickoff time.

This evening I need to remove the few structures that I've placed on the plywood (just to see how they might look); remove the track in sections; glue the risers to the plywood base; and place the sheets of Gatorboard that will form the main/top layer of the layout (and which will provide the base support for the roadbed).

Tomorrow, I plan to reinstall the track; cut-out areas of the Gatorboard where the scenery will extend below track level; and hook-up some juice so I can give things a test run (I might even try the Bachmann DCC system). The Atlas Code 83 track I'm using will eventually be replaced by Micro Engineering Code 83 On30 track, but for now I'll just going to keep the Atlas in place so I an enjoy playing with some trains and engage in some planning for the various scenic features.

I'm doing my best to document things photographically (and with words since this computer is just a couple of feet away from the layout) as I go along, but those images will likely be used for a magazine article at some point in the future so I won't be doing much with them until then.

Anyhow, that's my progress report for this evening....

Thanks for the update Allan, just don't forget to watch the Super Bowl.

Paul S,
I looked at the trucks on my Bachmann rolling stock thinking the wheels could be regauged to ON3. Not enough room. YOu may be able to use the wheel sets coming with your kits on the Bachmann cars. Just an idea.
Al

Thanks for the info, Al. I think I'll buy an On30 car and then experiment with replacement NWSL wheelsets. Are On30 cars equipped with HO Kadee #5 couplers? Looking at pictures on Bachmann's website, it's hard to tell. I'm using Kadee #803/807's (On3 coupler) on my equipment.

Paul S

The Bachmann couplers are not KD's, just a look alike.
Al

Thanks for the info. Assuming the EZ Mate couplers are HO size, the Kadee 803's are larger but not as big as standard gauge O scale Kadees. I would expect the Bachmann draft boxes would be too small for the 803s - not a problem.

HAVE ANY OF YOU PUT A BLI C-16 TENDER WITH A BACHMANN C25 2-8-0?
I THINK IT WOULD BE A NICE COMBINATION IN MY SOMETIMES WEIRD WAY OF THINKING.
AL CLAIR

Please read my thread...another rant....on problems with On3 China buit cars... Sometimes I wonder if the left hand knows what the right hand is up to..

Stan,

Sorry to hear your experience with the San Juan cars. I've got two cabooses ordered from them - I wonder if I'll have the same problem. If so, I'll send them back. If they get enough complaints and returns, perhaps they'll take steps to get better quality control.

Paul S

Oh no! Send John at San Juan Car Co. an email explaining the situation quick! He aint a Lionel but a one-man show...

It would be a tragic loss to the hobby if he gets run broke over some offshore kind of issue!

I'm reading AMERICAN NARROW GAUGE RAILROADS by George W. Hilton, published by Stanford University Press. It's a scholarly and detailed examination (580 pages) of the rise and fall of narrow gauge railroads in America. It also gives an interesting account of various narrow gauge railroads that originated and were used in England and the British Empire. Much of England's railroad expertise was used and strongly influenced America's early railroad designs.

Besides the usual narrow gauge railroads many people model, like the D&RGW or EBT, it discussed many other lines, some quite obscure and relatively short-lived that were absorbed and converted to standard gauge by larger railroads. I was surprised how many narrow gauge lines there were here in the Midwest.

In part one, three of the nine chapters discuss the development of narrow gauge locomotives, rolling stock and physical plant. There are many photographs, line drawings and maps that accompany the text. But you'll you'll be disappointed if you expect pages of rolling stock or structure drawings. It won't replace, but rather, supplement railroad specific books. Part two covers state-by-state narrow gauge common carriers.

I think this is an excellent reference book if you want the historical background on narrow gauge. If you are familiar with John H. White's books, THE AMERICAN RAILROAD FREIGHT CAR or THE AMERICAN RAILROAD PASSENGER CAR, this is similar in scope. In my opinion, it's a wonderful addition to any narrow gauge enthusiast's library. I got mine off Ebay in like-new condition.

Paul S

Paul S - When your caboose arrives check the wheel sets...even the flange width is wrong so the car may drop between the rails...

Everything about the San Juan car is done neatly and the lettering is excellent so why put on faulty wheels !

Why not add a few bucks to improve the operation of the car and everyone will be happy...

quote:

I'm reading AMERICAN NARROW GAUGE RAILROADS by George W. Hilton, published by Stanford University Press.

Hilton's book is pretty much the bible for those interested in U.S. narrow gauge railroads. As far as I am concerned, no narrow gauge hobbyist's library is complete without this book.

Hi Allan,

It was your recommendation a few weeks ago that got me interested in this book. I am not disappointed. It certainly explains the economics of why there are few narrow gauge railroads in America today other than those operating as tourist lines. I'm glad these are still running since they represent a significant and important historical contributor to their region's development. I've ridden the Silverton and plan to take my son-in-law and grandson on the Cumbres & Toltec in a couple years. Riding behind steam through the beautiful Colorado and New Mexico scenery is a wonderful experience that I love.

Paul S

Don't overlook the White Pass & Yukon narrow gauge out of Skagway, Alaska. Even though they have a couple of steam locomotives on the premises and a few freight cars for use in photos they run Alco diesels and all passenger cars. The passenger cars come from various old lines in US, but all are rebuilt and in good....excellent condition. the cars all roll on Timken roller bearings and some cars are modern. First class operation. Odd-d

Good morning all,
Are any of you building a frontier type narrow gauge? Since the Bachmann rolling stock is very similar to the 1880-1910 era in looks and size it could be pretty easy to do so without a lot of scratch building rolling stock.
The older version of the Bachmann 4-4-0 would be an ideal engine. For a flat lander native like myself, the Kansas Central would be a good prototype. I will be happy when winter is over so I can get back to my corruption in the garage. We had another ice storm here in the Ozarks and it may be a week before I can get into my pickup.
Al

My interest is narrow gauge using O gauge 2-rail track. I model 7/8" scale, which translates to 18 inch gauge in the prototype. A lot of others model 16mm scale in O gauge. Hope the tent is big enough

Hello David,
I do not know anyone doing 7/8"=1' before. Sounds like you have million options before you. Do you have any pics? I am sure a lot of fellow narrow minded types ("us fallen ones") will be interested in seeing your work.
Thanks for sharing with us.
Al

Hi Al

Most of us are builders as very little is sold that is 7/8 scale. I'm guessing there's 200-300 of us worldwide who model 7/8 indoor and out.

I'm using code 148 rail in 2 rail O gauge using 7/8n18 scale (1:13.7). I started a year ago scratchbuilding everything in metal and resin casting.

There were some 18" gauge RR in the US and many more overseas. The range of critters and rolling stock is as much or more than any standard gauge variety. Be careful as this is addicting.





















I'm currently scratchbuilding this locomotive:



I'll have a blast furnace and open pit mine built this spring hopefully.

There's a group of us 7/8 modelers worldwide. My skills are the worst in the group as I'm a beginner and don't have some of the fancy milling and turning equipment they have, not to mention experience.

David,
Looks like another type of corruption for the "Fallen Ones". I have a couple of questions for you. I made a quick check on my G-Scale track and it comes out at On18. Is this what you are using, G-Scale track? If so are you able to use some of the small LGB locomotives as a base for your motive power? Can't wait to drag this across our youth paster.
Thanks again,
Al

Hi Al,

Definitely NOT G gauge track. It is O gauge, same as everything on this 2-rail forum. For the power drive I use motors and gearing from 3 rail Lionel and Williams locomotives and sometimes I use servos and have even powered with a modified Tortoise switch. I use a modified remote control system designed for motor boats.

To see a much better work, see the 7/8 scale O gauge layout of a friend:

http://amalgamatedconserves.mysite.orange.co.uk/

His layout extends from outdoors to inside as well (since most on this forum model indoors. Click on his "Factory" link to see some of his indoor work.

I'll have more to show as my novice work progresses.

The web pictures are tiny but I can see some very fine modeling. Industrial railroading like this is unusual among my model railroading friends but very appropriate for narrow gauge. This layout seems to be well designed and executed and is probably great fun for the owner and visitors.

I am intrigued by the live steam locomotive. What kind of fuel does it burn? I was in a 1/8" = 12" live steam club (7.5" track gauge) for several years but eventually dropped out. It was too expensive and inconvenient for me to participate. I did scratch-build a Southern Pacific C-30 wooden caboose that I donated to the club when I left.

Paul S

Paul,

A number of modelers run live steam in O burning alcohol, butane and sometimes propane and occasionally (for the fanatic) real coal. A number of these modelers also have indoor layouts. I'm rather surprised OGR magazine has never featured them as it is, after all, O gauge.

One of my friends bashed a Ruby from Gauge 1 to Gauge O recently. It is a live steam locomotive. I'm still trying to tune the cylinders on the one I built. I just don't have the knack I suppose. But did get it to run a few feet :-)

Live steam can cost upwards of 4K. More fun to build your own but it helps having metal working equipment, and that in itself can be pricey. So I understand the dollar concern.

David,
My brain jumped out of gear about you use O-Gauge track on the 7/8=1 foot. But I did learn G gauge track would be 24 inch gauge. Do you have a term for the 7/8ths scale.
Al

Al,

You hit the nail on the head. G gauge track equates to 2 feet.

The letter/number designators currently used are:

SE18 (7/8 scale 18" gauge) on O gauge track
SE2 (7/8 scale 2' gauge) on gauge 1 track

Sometimes you might see

SE45
SE32

(those are millimeters, with 32mm meaning the width between O gauge track)

At other times you might see

7/8n18 or 7/8n2

Hope this is clearer than mud.

Incidentally, I do have a small area of SE2 track (Gauge 1) in addition to my larger O gauge area. Here's a Maine 2' Plymouth and boxcar I scratchbuilt using wood, running on a homemade r/c unit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cqniqtTmPg

However, my primary interest remains O gauge or SE18

----

One last point is that 1:13.7 (the ratio of SE scale) is close enough to 1:12 (for some) to incorporate doll-house figures and structures. OTOH, the more scale minded modelers rule this out, so to speak (but it looks realistic to me)

------'
final note: there are a lot of 16mm modelers (19.1:1) who use O gauge track to model 2' gauge stuff. So if you are a fan of Maine 2' or Gilpin 2' (old Colorado tram) or some others, that is a pretty neat way to go as well.

A lot of options to keep in mind; esp. as you grow older and need bigger scale models to work with but still enjoy O gauge track..

This message has been edited. Last edited by: SE18,

David,
I surmise you may be retired, or as I say, "Living my childhood dream, I don't have to go to school or work, all I have to do is play with my trains. My guess is you may stir up a lot of interest in the SE18 or SE24. Your viedo looks pretty neat, to say the least.
Al

hey all,

my little layout here:


http://www.michaelluczak.com/On3.html

thanks!

Michael,

That looks really great! It gives me inspiration to get started on mine. Please keep us informed of your future progress and thanks for sharing.

Paul S

Thanks for sharing Zak. We will be looking forward to more posts from you. Are you using Micro Engineering track or another brand.
Keep up the good work.
Al

thanks guys! always good to get some feedback.

it is all code 100 psc flex track and light iron turnout company switches.

the layout should be in the next issue of colorado narrow gauge quarterly.

thanks again!

Zak,

That's pretty amazing. One of the largest layouts I've seen. One thing many narrow gauge railroads have in common is field expedience, economizing on track and rolling stock, lots of weathering, charm, and unusual equipment and operating practices.

Regardless of the gauge/scale, I think this is what has attracted a few of us to this area of modeling and research (the 2 go together).

After modeling HO standard gauge railroads (Southern Pacific), On3 is refreshing and (to me) more practical in my circumstances of available space, time and expense. I enjoy the western topography of the D&RGW which can be modeled as mountains, desert or a combination of both. I like the idea of adding a standard gauge interchange. Perhaps I can incorporate one between a fictitious SP and D&RGW narrow gauge branch somewhere south of Farmington, NM to tap the area's coal, oil and gas reserves (circa late 1930s).

Zak, are those MMI NG locomotives on your layout? I recognize the C-19 (I have #346) and the K-27 (my #464 is getting a Tsunami installed). They're fine looking and running engines. A couple K-36s are arriving in a few months to complete my NG engine roster.

Paul S

hey paul,

yep MMI models except for my RGS #455 after the wreck. berlyn. all have tsunami sound as well. really nice models for the price. seems like i have a very intermittent short in my RGS 40 from MMI, but i am sure it is something simple. i too have a couple k36s, coming.. along with a couple k37s and the san juan c16 bumblebee (can't resist that little loco)

thanks again, this layout is a little different for me as well. all my o std are back in cases, and i wanted to try to get a nice layout in my given space and yet still be able to have display cases, tv, work area.. etc.

so On3 (with a little O std) mixed in was my choice, and the MMI price point allowed me to keep most of my GN and NP std O stuff as well.

my old O std guage layout is at:

http://www.michaelluczak.com/oscale.html

if you wanted to take a look.



thanks again for taking the time to look.

Michael,

Thanks for the link to your old layout; it was beautiful and with that experience, your new one should be even better. What minimum radius curves are you using for On3?

You might find this interesting. When I was five (1947), my folks took a charter train from Chicago to Los Angeles via the GN to Seattle and then down the west coast. Running over the Rockies, our long HW Pullman consist was pulled/pushed by four steam locomotives. I remember watching them on the curves. This was during the winter so they really showed off with lots of steam and smoke. Once, while our train was sitting in a siding, Dad took me up to look at the big GN articulated locomotive. I don't remember what kind it was other than it was huge (to a five year old). It was a great trip that created a life-long love for trains (particularly steam). A few years ago, I retraced that route on Amtrak's Empire Builder and Coast Starlight. This was great fun too but did not have the "magic" of that first trip.

Paul S

paul,

very cool story. wish i could have seen that! my experience as a teenager with trains was the now, durango and silverton. back in the late 70s early 80s we took yearly vacations to colorado and for several years i rode the train from durango to silveton.. probably where i got the narrow gauge bug.

min radius on ON3 layout is 40". there is one 44" as well.

here's neat NG sites (NOT mine) to give you ideas of models and prototypes that are possible:

www.shiftingsands.fotopic.net
www.miniaturerailways.fotopic.net
www.colinpeake.fotopic.net

DAVID,
THANKS FOR THE WEB SITES. I AM FEELING UNDER THE WEATHER ON A COLD SNOWEY DAY AND I WAS NEEDING SOMETHING TO ENTERTAIN MYSELF. I AM GOING TO LOOK INTO THEM AFTER LUNCH.
AL