quote:

Originally posted by OGR Webmaster: To see how this is going to work, CLICK HERE. This will take you to a sample copy of "FITTED" magazine, which is all about New Era hats. I know it's not trains, but the OGR Digital Edition will use this same interface, so play around with this and you'll see how easy it is to use. You can click the bottom corner of a page to turn it, or you can click the "BACK" and "NEXT" arrows in the toolbar. Click on the print button and you'll see how easy it will be to print pages of articles you want to have in hard-copy. Click on the other buttons so you get to know the interface better.

OK, I gave it a shot just do I could give some feedback. The Flash interface runs faster then some similar e-paper sites I've been to, which is nice. Since it's Flash-based, though, iPhones and some other smartphones can't access it online. I believe a few smartphones can support Flash, so somebody else might want to give it a try if their phone can handle it. If I wanted to read it on my iPhone, I'd have to convert it to PDF and make it accessible to the phone via an external application with sync capability. That might be more work than I'd want to do routinely; I'd be more likely to tote my paper copy along to read or just browse the forum at lunch on the iPhone.

I tried saving a copy through my Mac's print-to-PDF option. It processed eight out of the 40 pages and stopped. I'm not sure if that's a limit of the demo or a bug in my system, but I thought I'd pass it along. The eight pages it was able to convert to PDF came out fine.

Interesting approach!

-Eric

OMG, the entire printed news industry is falling apart, but there is a magazine dedicated to baseball caps

So you were able to convert the entire magazine into a PDF file and save it to your computer, eh?

Looks like we're back to using DRM or some other form of security.

You could have printing disabled, but I think people would want to be able to print out an article they like

We don't want to disable printing because we know people will want to print certain articles for future reference. For certain things - a detailed how-to-do-it article, for example - there's no substitute for a good hard copy by your side while you try to do whatever the article is trying to teach you.

Are your PDF's searchable and do the web site links work?

This is getting interesting. I'm sure that these problems will be addressed before the Digital OGR is launched. In the mean time we have the print edition to fall back on. The Web Master will keep us informed I'm sure.

No, when printed to a PDF they are more like an image (Photo) than an fully searchable/selectable PDF.

So no text selection, no clickable links

I like the idea Rich. That interface works well. I haven't verified .pdf save ability yet, but as long as you leave that option open then I'm on board. I LOVE the ability to do keyword searches! How many times have I flipped through pages wishing there was a search feature. Once you amass enough online content I would love to see some kind of Master keyword search from the OGR website that would show results across different issues. Can't remember where you read that kickin' Jim Barrett article? Just Pop in a keyword or two and get the results that take you right to it (if subscribed of course).

quote:

Originally posted by cbojanower:
No, when printed to a PDF they are more like an image (Photo) than an fully searchable/selectable PDF.

So no text selection, no clickable links

Chris, when I print to PDF I have no problems searching for text. But I don't have any clickable links. If you haven't tried CutePDF before you may want to give it a shot.

With apologies to Sir Walter Scott quote:

"Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When the DRM scheme we conceive!"

Fellas,

I hate to ask this becaus I know it will catagorize me as the dumbest of the dumb in your eyes, but what does DRM stand for?

Thanks,
Frank

Geez I was just about to ask that question!

Jon

Stands for Digital Rights Management
Read all about it here:

DRM explained

Have fun

quote:

quote:
Gee, Rich, glad ya did your homework BEFORE you announced the new adventure! Always good to stir the pot up and then find your ring on your finger!

Still grinding that axe, I see... Roll Eyes


Rich Melvin, Publisher
O Gauge Railroading magazine
NKP 765's Web Site

quite the contrary, Rich! It is indeed a wise man that can learn from the mistakes of others. I have offered my help to you 2 times and both times you have slammed the door in my face.

Paperboys, I owe you an apology. I wrote that most-unpolite and unprofessional response about the axe when I was still recovering from whatever I had at York that laid me low for a couple of days. I should have known better and now I feel like an idiot. I'm sorry.

I have looked at your web site and it's very well done. I'm still having difficulty with the "apples and oranges" thing because your business model is so different from ours. I'll look at it again today and do a little more head-scratching.

I think the idea of a digital download is a good one but I would still publish the printed copy.

However since I use both a home computer and a laptop I would want to be able to read the digital copy on both machines with one subscription.

I feel a majorrity of people would still prefer the printed copy, since as another member has said that he downloads back issues of another train magazine but rarely reads them. I find mysefd doing the same with the " O Scale Train magizine" (2 rail and narrow gauge).


"She took the Atchison, Topeka & the Santa Fe"

quote:

So you were able to convert the entire magazine into a PDF file and save it to your computer, eh?

Looks like we're back to using DRM or some other form of security

I'd really would like to subscribe to OGR digitally as it fits my lifestyle, I do almost all of my business and purchases electronically, even our church has gone to electronically allowing members to make contributions via the web now. To make the OGR too restrictive to access electronically for it's subscribers, hampers it's chance at success in my opinion. While I agree that OGR has the right to protect it's property, if it's too restrictive for those that would pay for it then it is destined for failure. Let's face it most folks are honest and are not going to be passing along electronic issues of OGR and emailing pdf files all over the place, and will pony up the money for accessing it. Those that their ethics are less then they should be will find a way around whatever OGR does to protect it anyway. I hope that OGR doesn't make it so restrictive that those of us that would use it won't.

Rich, THANK YOU!

"I'm still
> having difficulty with the "apples and oranges"
> thing because your
> business model is so different from ours."

Rich, our business models are very similar. We both publish on paper. Now you are about to publish on the net, which we already do. To say the least, it was a chore to get us on line. I started working on it over 5 years ago and 2 different computer whizzos have given it a whirl. Even after we got it up and running, there were many and various problems that reared their ugly head. You too will encounter similar problems as this goal comes to fruition. If I can be of assistance, please feel free to ask!

Hi Rich, I think this is a great idea and I'm sure that I will be one of your first subscribers , but I do have a couple of questions. Why is it that this site knows me when I come on from my PC at home, at work or even if I use my laptop? I understand this is done via the cookies in my machines, how dose this differ from the DRM ID?
Is there any way a small library of computers could be permitted for each customer? Lets say we could connect via any one of three or four diffrent computers. If we change machines then there could a password to negate one and add another? If my rudimentary understanding of DRM is correct this would make it possible for us to down lode an magazine but limits our use to any one of the three computers. Then if we replace a unit a new copy would have to be down loaded to be used by that computer.
Please bare with me on this because as the others have stated above I would really like to access from more then one computer and I don't have a good grasp of the technology.

Oh yea, I agree with you the printed word will be around for a long time. There is nothing like holding a magazine or news paper in your hands.

quote:

if it's too restrictive for those that would pay for it then it is destined for failure. Let's face it most folks are honest and are not going to be passing along electronic issues of OGR and emailing pdf files all over the place, and will pony up the money

Ditto...

Here's a thought for you. It's what I've found to be "true" in the computer industry working in UNIX Security, Firewalls, Network Security etc for 20+ years now.

#1 - If the security is too cumbersome people will either not buy it or find a way around the security thus rendering it useless.

#2 - Honest people will buy the product and either use it as is or if the security is too annoying they will break the security so they can use the product as they wish. Google is the great enabler! Once 1 hacker figures it out within minutes every Joe user has the ability as well.

#3 - Dishonest people will not buy the product and will break the security no matter what you do. These people will never actually give you money. They are not lost revenue as it is revenue that would never come in any circumstance.

So with that in mind what is the intent of DRM? DRM effects only groups 1 and 2. The ones actually buying the product. It doesn't effect #3 in any way. As Apple learned cracking DRM is much easier then making new DRM's. The hackers were always 1 step ahead of each new scheme. So Apple gave up on DRM on iTunes. All music is now DRM free. If Apple can't make DRM work, I highly doubt OGR as the IT resources to!

Regardless of the intent of DRM, DRM really only has 1 result. That is to annoy your paying costumers and give hackers something else to break. Apple figured it out in that they wouldn't loose money by not having DRM. That is because the honest people are still buying music and the dishonest people never bought the music in the first place and never will.

It's time for a reply to answer a few questions posed.

Daylight said:

quote:

I think the idea of a digital download is a good one but I would still publish the printed copy.

The printed copy of OGR is NOT going to be discontinued. On the contrary, we are always looking for new subscribers to the printed edition of OGR and will continue to do so for a long time to come.

Daylight, you also used the words "...digital download..." in your post, but that's not how this is done. When you go on-line to read the OGR Digital Edition, you will not "download" anything. You will read it on-line, just as you read this forum on-line. As time passes and additional issues are published, all the previous issues will remain on-line and available for reading.


GG1man asked:

quote:

Why is it that this site knows me when I come on from my PC at home, at work or even if I use my laptop? I understand this is done via the cookies in my machines, how does this differ from the DRM ID?

Mario, you are correct in that this site knows who you are because of the "cookies" stored on the various computers you use to access the OGR Forum. Access to the OGR Digital Edition will be almost identical to the way you access this forum. When you purchase a subscription, you will be assigned a user name and password. You will log in to read the OGR Digital edition on-line, just as you log in to read this forum on-line. You will be able to log in and read your copy of the OGR Digital Edition from ANY computer that's connected to the internet.

This is NOT the same as DRM. No DRM will be required because you will not DOWNLOAD anything...you will read it on-line, just as you read this forum. DRM is designed to restrict access to DOWNLOADED files stored on your computer. The OGR Digital Edition will not be "downloaded" and stored on your computer. It will be stored on the OGR Digital Edition server where it can be accessed by anyone at any time...as long as they have a user name and password.

By providing the OGR Digital Edition On-Line as opposed to offering a downloaded product, DRM will not be used in the publication of the OGR Digital Edition. Accessing the OGR Digital Edition will be almost the same logging in to access this forum, and you all figured out how to do that a long time ago.

Any further discussion of DRM here is moot because we are NOT going to use it.

Rich,

The "FITTED" eMag example had good response on my DSL connection and works faster and smoother than some of the eMags from other publishers. However, please avoid using the soundtrack options.

Re: username and password, it would be nice to reuse our forum names and passwords for access to the digital edition.

John

Glad to know the eMag interface worked smoothly and quickly for you, John. This was one reason we chose to go with Imirus. Their interface and page display time was much better than many of the others we looked at.

quote:

please avoid using the soundtrack options.

We will have SOME "Enhanced Content" (that's what the video clips and sound tracks are called) but nothing like the New Era hat E-Book. We'll include video clips of certain advertiser products, excerpts from our own videos and a few other video clips from time to time, but they will be more conventionally produced and better suited to the kind of video you enjoy watching about this hobby.

Rich,

I’m for the online edition. Would content from this site be “published” in the online edition? There are some really good ideas that come out of this site (layout wiring, automation circuitry, scenery tips, caring for rolling stock equipment, etc, etc). It might make for a complete package and possibly entice more people to purchase an online subscription since it would have something “extra”. It would also mitigate the “6-month complaint” that comes up now and then.

I’m also for purchasing CD’s of older archived editions. I would much rather have a CD than trying to find space for older issues – shelving real estate is at a premium in the train room and my train purchases seem to be taking over. Being from the print industry there is a cost for generating a CD and that has to be handled in some way (subscription or direct purchase).

I’m definitely for receiving my OGR magazine in the mail! It’s always a happy day when it arrives.

I’m not a huge poster on here, but I do enjoy and appreciate all of the information here.

Larry

quote:

Any further discussion of DRM here is moot because we are NOT going to use it.

CHEER!! And there was much rejoicing!

quote:

Any further discussion of DRM here is moot because we are NOT going to use it.

That's a good decision Rich and I look forward to viewing the online edition!

GNERR asked:

quote:

Would content from this site (the OGR FORUM) be “published” in the online edition?

The quick answer is no. The OGR Digital Edition is will be an on-line version of O Gauge Railroading magazine and will have nothing directly to do with this forum.

However, having said that allow me to quickly follow up by also saying that on-line publishing allows us a lot more flexibility to publish "Special Issues." These special issues may be a collection of Backshop articles on a similar subject, for example. Or it could be several "O Gauge In A Small Space" articles all published together. Or, it could be a series of posts from this forum on similar subjects.

However, these would all fall under the heading of a "Special Issue" and would not be a part of the regularly published O Gauge Railroading magazine Digital Edition.

quote:

Any further discussion of DRM here is moot because we are NOT going to use it.

Cool

Just a clarification, will there still be a downloadable copy for reading while not connected to the internet, or will it all be only online?

quote:

Just a clarification, will there still be a downloadable copy for reading while not connected to the internet, or will it all be only online?

I should let Rich answer but I can't resist. (sorry).

Rich said above the would not disable printing. That said it's a simple matter to use a little not often used feature.. That is "print to file" or more specifically, "print to pdf".

You won't be able to follow any links they embed while offline of course but you could have the entire thing in a pdf for offline reading.

quote:

will there still be a downloadable copy for reading while not connected to the internet, or will it all be only online?

It will be on-line only. If we went the "download" route, we would have to apply DRM.

You will be able to log in and read your copy of the OGR Digital Edition from ANY computer that's connected to the internet.

I've been a subscriber for many years. I am not interested in an on-line version as I dislike reading from a screen and only do so if I have no option. However, if many people like the idea and are willing to pay for it, good for you and I wish you success.

However, I do have a concern as a paper-only version subscriber. That concern is that you will include topics and articles in your on-line version that aren't part of the printed version with the intent of trying to lure subscribers. From your side and from on-line subscribers' viewpoint the attitude will probably be "if you want the extras then subscribe". From my side I don't think that's fair.

Why do I not think it's fair? For what I said: I don't like reading from a screen, especially an entire magazine, and I don't want to have to subscribe to both merely to have access to the 'extras' if they will even exist.

The only way that it would seem fair is to make the 'extra' (non-paper) stuff available to paper-version subscribers, much like what Kalmbach does with their on-line extras which they make available to subscribers to their magazine(s).

Boy I can tell already that I'm going to get beat up over this , but thanks for letting us share our thoughts here on this forum.

- walt

The OGR Digital Edition will be the same as the magazine. The Digital Edition will have some "Enhanced Content" in the form of video clips, clickable links to web sites, etc. but editorially it will be the same as the magazine, made from the same PDF files which we send to our printer. A subscription to the Digital Edition will deliver seven issues per year, same as the printed magazine.

However, we WILL be publishing "Special Editions" from time to time that will only be available on-line and not available in print. These will not be a part of the yearly subscription, but will be additional publications that can be purchased on a single-copy basis. Should you find one of these issue to be of interest, you can purchase it, bring it up on line and print it.

Thats a great idea Rich, you buy what you want.

Oh sure. But what if I don't have an internet connection.

Oops.

quote:

But what if I don't have an internet connection.

You are S. O. L.

quote:

Oh sure. But what if I don't have an internet connection.

well, ah, gee Farm boy, how is that we is graced by ye presence frequently? youse got to be cornnected somehow?

Is there going to be a price break for those that already subscribe to the print magazine? Sort of a package deal? i.e. $30 a year for the print version (or whatever it is) or $30 a year for the online version or $45 a year for both? I think if there was, you'd get more subscribers and therefore more money.

We have established the OGR Digital Edition subscription price at $19.95 per year.

You will also be able to purchase single copies for $3.95.

We're getting close! I'll have an announcement about the preview very soon.

quote:

However, we WILL be publishing "Special Editions" from time to time that will only be available on-line and not available in print. These will not be a part of the yearly subscription, but will be additional publications that can be purchased on a single-copy basis. Should you find one of these issue to be of interest, you can purchase it, bring it up on line and print it.

Thank you Rich - it satisfies my concern!!!!

- walt

This maybe an off base question... if I sign up for a year and then do not renew, do I have access to the issues that I signed up for or do I loose that ability once my "digital subscription" expires. Not a deal breaker just a question. My guess is I loose all access. The price of convenience I would guess.

Rich Said:

quote:

It will be on-line only. If we went the "download" route, we would have to apply DRM.

You will be able to log in and read your copy of the OGR Digital Edition from ANY computer that's connected to the internet.

Rich I don't mean to sound negative. And I truly applaud the effort. But here is my concern.

If I buy a paper magazine from you, I have as long as I care to keep it. In fact I could buy when I am 20 and reread again when I am 90. It is up to me and pretty much me alone to determine how long I keep that magazine.

If I buy a digital magazine from you today how do I know it will still be available 20 years from now when I want to go and read it again?

In the course of 20 years the following could happen.

1) OGR goes out of business so the web site shuts down.

2) OGR gets sold and the new management does wish to continue the offering and shuts down the web site.

3) After a while fewer and fewer subscribes to digital anymore, (maybe something better came along etc...) with no revenue coming in for digital how does OGR pay the hosting bill?

There are any number of scenarios in which the revenue stops but the hosting cost continues....

How does that work?

quote:

if I sign up for a year and then do not renew, do I have access to the issues that I signed up for

Yes.

BillP, all I can say is, welcome to the word of digital publishing. These are questions that can be asked about EVERY on-line digital publication and there are no absolutely firm answers. Obviously we intend that these digital editions will remain available on-line for many, many years. However, I can't speak to what will happen 20 years out because I'm sure I will not be involved with OGR 20 years from now.

20 years from now my wife will still be bugging me to throw out the magazines in the basement that will by then be forty years old.

Wow, I think this is great.

I normally purchase the magazine at Barnes & Noble
I must admit, I enjoy reading a hardcopy of a magazine
but dislike storing magazines as they take up too much space.

This is the digital age and there are several benefits that computers offer.
The OGR plan seems to be very good.

I had purchased some pdf's, including Barry's Book on DCS,
but lost all of my files after the computer hardisk crashed
and unfortunately, I did not back up my harddisk, so if I want another copy of Barry's Book, I'll have to buy another copy.

In any event, I won't have to worry about this situation again, since the issues will be stored on line, and I'll enjoy the benefit of content rich items and technology links, etc.

The computer I have is always connected to the internet via a cable modem, I have a nice big widescreen monitor too.

It appears the first online issue should be forthcomming and look forward to it with anticipation. I am sure I will be becoming a subscriber, where I would only purchase copies at the store.

Ed

P.S. Great idea. I think it is win/win for everybody. Every thing is a trade off, I think with the enhanced benefits and reduced costs will outweight my enjoyment of viewing a physical magazine that I can take anyplace with me.

quote:

Originally posted by rogue:

...if I want another copy of Barry's Book, I'll have to buy another copy.

Ed, you should be able to just download another copy of Barry's book with your original username and password. I've already downloaded the book a second time to get the copy with the revisions. You might check with Barry on this if you're having a problem.

Tom

Rich,
Any thoughts on coming out with a yearly DVD/CD that would be a aggregate of the prior year issues such as our currently being able to purchase the back issues via the OGR Digital Archive. For those who would have the digital version, would the yearly version be available for a norminal additional fee to have it in the the archive format?

quote:

Originally posted by Richmond & Western:

quote:

Originally posted by rogue:

...if I want another copy of Barry's Book, I'll have to buy another copy.

Ed, you should be able to just download another copy of Barry's book with your original username and password. I've already downloaded the book a second time to get the copy with the revisions. You might check with Barry on this if you're having a problem.

Tom

Tom, I tried your recommendation and was able to download another copy.
Thanks you very much.
Ed
P.S. I didn't know there was any revisions.

It should just be username and password to enter the site and then you can view on any pc.

I'm in line and waiting for OGR Digital. Just think, I'm waiting for the holiday edition of OGR too. It will be here any day.