I was considering the new Hartland Locomotive Works "Lilly Belle" engine now available at the Carolwood Society. Would this be a desirable engine to get and keep? Is it officially licensed and endorsed by Disney? Any feedback appreciated. I know very little about G gauge but have always liked it and have a small LGB setup.

Yes it’s a nice if you’re into Disney. If you call Carolwood you might get to speak to Michael Broggie, he is the writer of the "Walt Disney Railroad Story" book. I have that too and it’s very interesting history of Walt Disney's interest in railroad both real and model and shows his large home layout (outdoor steam) and the influences trains had on his movies etc. "Great Locomotive Chase".

Hartland Locomotives are of nice quality they are G scale (2 rail) they are a small manufacturer. I think the loco is 1/24 scale but don’t quote me on that, the Lilly Belle will run on any LGB, Aristo Craft or USA Trains G scale track.
Ask him if it comes with the display shelf/track.

George

Well - being a Large Scale guy - I wouldn't spend the money for the price point...

http://www.h-l-w.com/Products/locomotives.html

Look at the retail prices of these locos - not Carolwood admittedly - but then go to a few other websites and you will find locos by Hartland as nice [not Carolwood] for $359.00. Basically - you are paying about $140.00 more for a paint scheme...The locos are plastic bodies - not metal.

https://www.rldhobbies.com/ind...=VIEWPROD&ProdID=526

http://www.h-l-w.com/Products/...4-0%20V&T%20Reno.jpg

I like Hartland but you could get a whopping big Mikado or Pacific from Aristocraft for about $440.00 also...

If you want the road name - have at it but I wouldn't pay that much for a Hartland engine - name, license or not. They are solid runners but no sound, anemic smoke and sparce details.

Strictly my opinion...

Every loco offered through Carolwood is Disney family authorized. Exclusive to Carolwood. The higher cost of their offerings is due to the lower production numbers. ( Heartland Lilly Belle being made exclusively for Carolwood and NOT a standard offering by Heartland). Mike Campbell is the Carolwood President who has worked hard to bring many Lilly Belle offerings to Carolwood members. He was instrumental in the production of a G scale electric and a live steam version made by Accucraft.

If you like Disney consider joining the Carolwood society. If you just like the engine...buy it, or wait to see if someone sells theirs on the secondary market.

As always Toy Trains are NOT an investment...you'll make better money buying into a CD at the bank.

Buy it if you like it...play with it...if someday it goes up in value ....consider yourself fortunate. The Carolwood folks are "good people"...a nice society to be a member of...always a few activities at Disney Land..they are also afilliated with the LA live steamers...Look them up on the web.... www.Carolwood.com
Just my 2 cents

This message has been edited. Last edited by: justakid,

I believe this is the second or maybe third run of this engine and the price has gone up.. My first was purchased from Carolwood was for,I believe, $400.00 , I picked up a 2nd one off ebay for $325.00 which I later sold. I believe they are now selling for $499.00 which I think is high. I'd like to see it made in O gauge..

I like the idea that they are made in USA using Kalamazoo dies. I was at Disney World with my parents in 1985 and a hobby shop had the related Kalamazoo engine on display and I wanted it but parents wouldn't let me. So the Carolwood version is of interest.

quote:

Originally posted by Joe G:
I'd like to see it made in O gauge..

Last I heard Mike Campbell was looking into "o" scale. The HO set produced for Carolwood by Bachmann was sucessful and sold in the park stores as well. Now that Bachmann/Williams are one, maybe some new tooling of a 4-4-0 is on the horizon. Williams has had sucess with other engines, why not a 4-4-0?

Yes it would be nice to see a Lilly Belle in O.

If I recall the HLW Lilly Belle at Disney were more expensive several years back (of course everything is more expensive @ Disney).

Carolwood for awhile did not stock the base/track display shelf with the engine so the $400 price tag, they also would not certify its Disney authenticity (run made by HLW just for Disney). I agree though if you like Disney/Lilly Belle and want to display/run it, buy it. I agree with others I do not see it as a long term return on the dollar investment, like all trains it's an investment in fun. Occasionally you can find them on EBay for cheaper.

George

Why not? So it won't say (c) Disney on it? The stuff disney sells on their website is not good...the colors on the Lionel offerings are as far from Disney as possible.

Carolwood is offering the HLW cars and caboose. Are those all Kalamazoo tooling too?

quote:

Originally posted by Seacoast:

Carolwood for awhile did not stock the base/track display shelf with the engine so the $400 price tag, they also would not certify its Disney authenticity (run made by HLW just for Disney). I agree though if you like Disney/Lilly Belle and want to display/run it, buy it. I agree with others I do not see it as a long term return on the dollar investment, like all trains it's an investment in fun. Occasionally you can find them on EBay for cheaper.

George

I purchased two of these back around 2000 at WDW. They were made by Hartland and came with slivers of the actual Carolwood rails and a display case to add collect ability to them. I think I paid $350 each (using a cast members discount, which was about 40%). They sold out at the Florida parks within a couple months. Disney announced another loco to be released the next year (E. Marsh I think), but it never showed up at WDW. I called DL to see if they had any just after the printed release date. The gal had heard about it, but said she never saw one actually arrive at their shop. The Lilly Belle by Hartland was a beautiful loco. Hartland does nice work.

Anyway, when I decided I did not truly have the space for a G scale layout a couple years ago, I sold the pair of Lilly Belle's on the bay. I was amazed when I got $1200 each! They paid for my jump back into 3 rail.

Happy Railroading!!

Bobby

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BobbyDing,

quote:

Originally posted by Mike W.:
Why not? So it won't say (c) Disney on it? The stuff disney sells on their website is not good...the colors on the Lionel offerings are as far from Disney as possible.

Carolwood is offering the HLW cars and caboose. Are those all Kalamazoo tooling too?

quote:

Originally posted by Seacoast:

Carolwood for awhile did not stock the base/track display shelf with the engine so the $400 price tag, they also would not certify its Disney authenticity (run made by HLW just for Disney). I agree though if you like Disney/Lilly Belle and want to display/run it, buy it. I agree with others I do not see it as a long term return on the dollar investment, like all trains it's an investment in fun. Occasionally you can find them on EBay for cheaper.

George

Hi Mike,

What I was trying to say is 8 years ago or so, Carolwood had some Lilly Belles in stock for $400 dollars they did not come with the display track/shelf and did not come with a certificate of authenticity (paperwork) from Disney Corporation. If I bought one at Disney World they would have had all the above with the locomotive (but more money at the time).

At the time the HLW (Hartland) was providing them to Carolwood at a cheaper price. There is no difference, they are the same loco you would purchase on Disney property (looked the same/ran the same etc); just for less money at Carolwood, if price is important check EBay; however Lilly Belles are not commonly for sale, every now and then you will find one.


George

quote:

Originally posted by justakid:

quote:

Originally posted by Joe G:
I'd like to see it made in O gauge..

Last I heard Mike Campbell was looking into "o" scale. The HO set produced for Carolwood by Bachmann was sucessful and sold in the park stores as well. Now that Bachmann/Williams are one, maybe some new tooling of a 4-4-0 is on the horizon. Williams has had sucess with other engines, why not a 4-4-0?

Michael, who is a member, though infrequent poster to this Forum, would definitely be the man to see something like this through. His attention to detail is meticulous, and he has very high standards for what he does. I will ask him if anything is in the works.

The beautiful thing about an O scale "Lilly Belle" is that it would also be an O scale model of a typical Central Pacific/Southern Pacific locomotive, that could be offered in those liveries as well. This would appeal to the more "serious" model railroaders out there, who often tend to poo-poo anything related to Disney.

And while it wouldn't be an exact replica in a number of respects, the more adventurous of us could use the model as a basis for creating a Disneyland Railroad "C.K. Holliday."

Thanks for the clarification. So at this point on they are only sold through Carolwood? I would definitly want the base and certificate. I was told the display base was extra cost. I don't mind the cost at all...costs are higher these days...and I am supporting a neat organization and American labor. But I do wan't to make sure I get all the correct parts that the engine would come with.

quote:

Originally posted by Seacoast:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike W.:
Why not? So it won't say (c) Disney on it? The stuff disney sells on their website is not good...the colors on the Lionel offerings are as far from Disney as possible.

Carolwood is offering the HLW cars and caboose. Are those all Kalamazoo tooling too?

quote:

Originally posted by Seacoast:

Carolwood for awhile did not stock the base/track display shelf with the engine so the $400 price tag, they also would not certify its Disney authenticity (run made by HLW just for Disney). I agree though if you like Disney/Lilly Belle and want to display/run it, buy it. I agree with others I do not see it as a long term return on the dollar investment, like all trains it's an investment in fun. Occasionally you can find them on EBay for cheaper.

George

Hi Mike,

What I was trying to say is 8 years ago or so, Carolwood had some Lilly Belles in stock for $400 dollars they did not come with the display track/shelf and did not come with a certificate of authenticity (paperwork) from Disney Corporation. If I bought one at Disney World they would have had all the above with the locomotive (but more money at the time).

At the time the HLW (Hartland) was providing them to Carolwood at a cheaper price. There is no difference, they are the same loco you would purchase on Disney property (looked the same/ran the same etc); just for less money at Carolwood, if price is important check EBay; however Lilly Belles are not commonly for sale, every now and then you will find one.


George

Someone called?

Yes, we are actively looking into an O-gauge Lilly Belle. (Note I say O-gauge, and not O-scale. It would run on "O" track, but not be an O-scale version of the Lilly Belle which is, itself, a 1:8 model of the Central Pacific 173.) No, we don't have any details at this time and cannot provide the name of the manufacturer, an estimated price or date of release.

Just to be clear, the Lilly Belle is NOT property of the Walt Disney Company. It is the intellectual property of the Walt Disney Family Foundation. Those two entities have some common interest, of course, but are completely separate.

I'm happy to answer any other questions you may have about the Lilly Belle.

Michael

P.S. Thank you to Steve for his kind comments. The check is in the mail.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: CP173,

Thanks for posting in response to some of my questions. Will the new Lilly Belle have the upgraded features on the newer Hartland locos...such as DCS ready and more brass details...per their website descriptions? Will the cars and engine be limited to a certain number?

quote:

Originally posted by CP173:
Someone called?

I'm happy to answer any other questions you may have about the Lilly Belle.

Michael

P.S. Thank you to Steve for his kind comments. The check is in the mail.

The MTH 19th cent. 4-6-0 Railking engine is an exact match for the two Baldwin (ex-Mexican) 4-6-0 Disneyworld engines the Walter E. Disney and the Rodger E. Broggie.

Disney is so fixated on a tie to Lionel that these nice models have never been given the right paint schemes.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike W.:
Will the new Lilly Belle have the upgraded features on the newer Hartland locos...such as DCS ready and more brass details...per their website descriptions? Will the cars and engine be limited to a certain number?

Hartland does not make O scale equipment, so an O gauge model -- if one were made -- would not be built by them. Depending upon the manufacturer we select and the price points, we certainly could look at including DCS. I hope that it would have brass highlights as well.

I doubt very much that this will be a limited edition product. The cache added by setting a production limit does not quite compensate for disappointing those people who find out about the product after its sold out.

Sorry, worded my question improperly...

...Will the new Hartland Lilly Belle have the upgraded features on the newer Hartland locos...such as DCS ready and more brass details...per their website descriptions? Will the cars and engine be limited to a certain number?

Hartland has two forms of the 4-4-0..one is older and then the newer issues have the upgrades with brass details and DCC ready. Per an asterix on their website:

* These engines have been upgraded with these features:

DCC Ready

Smoke Included

Industrial Grade Motors

Highly Wear Resistant Materials

Indoor and Outdoor Use

Brass Hardware

Working Lights

Well, an O gauge Lilly Belle would certainly be welcomed by many of us. As Walt Disney said, the Central Pacific engine that was the prototype was one of the nicest looking engines ever built.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike W.:
...Will the new Hartland Lilly Belle have the upgraded features on the newer Hartland locos...such as DCS ready and more brass details...per their website descriptions? Will the cars and engine be limited to a certain number?

I understand the confusion: you're talking about Gauge 1 and I thought you meant O gauge.

Hartland produced 1,500 Lilly Belles. Disney sold these for some time in the Parks, but fell a little short of 1,500 units. Hartland is now releasing those surplus units for the Carolwood Society to sell. As such, I don't believe that they will differ much from the previous version.

Having said that, the original HLW Lilly Belle does have an operating headlight and lots of brass trim. There really isn't an opportunity to add more brass to it. I'll find out about DCS and smoke as the HLW Lilly Belle did not have that (it was wired for smoke, but had no smoke unit installed).

Whatever quantity that Hartland supplies is going to be a very limited number. I don't have the count, but I'd be surprised to find that it's more than 50 units. The rolling stock is NOT limited edition. However, Hartland only produces them on a specialty run basis, so it has been -- and will likely be -- years between runs.

Hope that helps!

Thanks for clearing that up. So this recent run of G Lilly Belles will not have a certificate? Are they made to order...or pulled from Disney's excess stock?

Its nice engine regardless of smoke etc.

quote:

Originally posted by CP173:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike W.:
...Will the new Hartland Lilly Belle have the upgraded features on the newer Hartland locos...such as DCS ready and more brass details...per their website descriptions? Will the cars and engine be limited to a certain number?

I understand the confusion: you're talking about Gauge 1 and I thought you meant O gauge.

Hartland produced 1,500 Lilly Belles. Disney sold these for some time in the Parks, but fell a little short of 1,500 units. Hartland is now releasing those surplus units for the Carolwood Society to sell. As such, I don't believe that they will differ much from the previous version.

Having said that, the original HLW Lilly Belle does have an operating headlight and lots of brass trim. There really isn't an opportunity to add more brass to it. I'll find out about DCS and smoke as the HLW Lilly Belle did not have that (it was wired for smoke, but had no smoke unit installed).

Whatever quantity that Hartland supplies is going to be a very limited number. I don't have the count, but I'd be surprised to find that it's more than 50 units. The rolling stock is NOT limited edition. However, Hartland only produces them on a specialty run basis, so it has been -- and will likely be -- years between runs.

Hope that helps!

I don't know why it wouldn't come with a certificate. It's still part of the original run. And as Michael C. said, they're not "made to order," they're the remainder of the 1500-unit production run.

I guess my concern would be buying one that has been handled through Disney world and shipped back and forth. But I feel that these items are made as they go...rather than all made at once. Hence the two month delay after ordering.

quote:

Originally posted by smd4:
I don't know why it wouldn't come with a certificate. It's still part of the original run. And as Michael C. said, they're not "made to order," they're the remainder of the 1500-unit production run.

Hmmm....Doesn't sound like, but maybe MC will come back and clarify.

These units did not ship to Disney and back. Hartland made enough components to produce 1,500 Lilly Belles and this final run simply consumes the remaining stock.

The CPRR rolling stock, which is not limited edition, is made to order.

Thanks for the insight! I will be ordering one soon. So the display base with nameplate is no longer available?

quote:

Originally posted by CP173:
These units did not ship to Disney and back. Hartland made enough components to produce 1,500 Lilly Belles and this final run simply consumes the remaining stock.

The CPRR rolling stock, which is not limited edition, is made to order.

quote:

Originally posted by Silver Lake:
The MTH 19th cent. 4-6-0 Railking engine is an exact match for the two Baldwin (ex-Mexican) 4-6-0 Disneyworld engines the Walter E. Disney and the Rodger E. Broggie.

Disney is so fixated on a tie to Lionel that these nice models have never been given the right paint schemes.

This is true (actually, the Roger E. Broggie has a diamond stack; the Walter E. Disney has a balloon stack, as modeled by MTH). Even the styrofoam box cover the engine comes in says "Disney!"

Jeff Sohn has repainted at least one engine to look like the Walter E. Disney. A dandy paintjob indeed.

If the proposed O gauge Lilly Belle could be made in a similar size as the MTH engine, it would be an awesome piece!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike W.:
So the display base with nameplate is no longer available?

That's right. Hartland originally packaged the Lilly Belle with a display case and the name plate. We found that some people really didn't want that and we were able to substantially lower the price by offering just the engine and tender.

However, you can order a display case from the Society. Just ask Sharon when you place your order. It won't include the name plate -- there are no more of those -- but it is a handsome way to display and protect your Lilly Belle.

Here's something for you, Mike W.:

Lilly Belle

Thanks for the link. Glad to see some more pics of it. I will probably get one but will support Carolwood with a purchase since Mike took the time to respond to questions...and the engine would be shipped new.

quote:

Originally posted by smd4:
Here's something for you, Mike W.:

Lilly Belle

I believe accucraft made a lilly bell that was stunning if you want something closer to scale. G scale junction had them on sale for a while. Searcg mylargescale.com for more details.