[QUOTE]Originally posted by CNJ 3676:
Perhaps the most notable development during the MPC era was the quality of decoration of motive power and rolling stock. It was truly exquisite. As opposed to the fuzzy interfaces so prevalent on items dating from the postwar era, MPC's paint schemes featured vibrant colors with well defined edges.
Bob [QUOTE]

This was certainly a premier achievement of the MPC folks. The colors and graphics are superb, and the offerings show a lot of thoughtfulness and innovation. I still have quite a few of the cars, including all the liquor series, tobacco railroad series, soft drink series, beer cars, and about 40 of the tankcars. The colors are spot-on, and the design and graphics are beautiful. Still nothing better, in my opinion. MPC re-did many of the Postwar engines and cars, but offered most of them in new and more interesting - and certainly more colorful - lines and colors. And don't forget that MPC remade the aluminum passenger cars and F units, but in gorgeous varieties and sets, such as Southern Pacific, Union Pacific, Burlington, Illinois Central, Norfolk and Western, to name a few. And the steam powered passenger sets with the new highly detailed baby Madisons were really nice, sets like the Alton Limited, Chessie Steam Special, Blue Comet, etc. The engines, including the Berkshires, were the same and the same quality as the Postwar versions. You could go on and on, but suffice it to say that MPC set new directions in many areas that are still copied by many of the manufacturers today.

Ed,

I believe the layout on the cover of that 1975 mini-catalog was shown in operation in "The History of Lionel Trains" video. Can anyone confirm that?

The 1981 catalog does exist in full size in the form of the toy fair/advance catalog with the Lionel, MPC & Craft Master Lines.

[qoute] A MPC era collector group meeting at York could be a good way to begin.
TCA leadership should be the ones thinking about stuff like this... [/quote]

The TCA is us (well some of us anyway). We cannot wait for the TCA leadership to do everything. If you would like to see an MPC era Collector group meeting at the Eastern Division Show (York), then please start one. I know that I would try to participate.
Debbie Geiser, the York registrar posts here on occasion. Perhaps she could provide some guidance on how to schedule and announce a meeting.
Her contact information appears in all the York literature.

quote:

The TM book Lionel A collectors Guide and History Vol 4 1970-1980 has a fascinating account into the rebirth of Lionel. One item mentioned, was how the new management contacted and recruited some of the old timers at Lionel, to get a feel as to when quality declined during the postwar era. The consensus was between the 1955 to 1959 era. Therefore MPC decided to avoid any items made after 1959. A quote from the book "The Lionel we brought out in 1970 was not the same Lionel that was produced in 1969, when quality had deteriorated".

I will second the reccomendation of this book. I think it is a must read for anybody interested in collecting MPC era trains. It is not a price guide.

quote:

Ed,

I believe the layout on the cover of that 1975 mini-catalog was shown in operation in "The History of Lionel Trains" video. Can anyone confirm that?

Skip
TCA 84-20613

Skip,

I'm almost positive I've seen a quick clip of that layout in one of the TM videos, but I cant recall which one. A few of their videos featured MPC era commercials. Perhaps one of the folks at TM or MPC guro PaperTRW can confirm this ?

Like our own Ed Boyle, I got back into this segment of our great and diverse hobby during the MPC era, so I obviously have good feelings about that time and the products that were offered. I touch on that a bit in my editorial in our Dec. issue, due out early in November.

I don't have many of those MPC items in my collection anymore, and have tended to gravitate toward more contemporary releases. Nevertheless, some of those items are still with me and will likely remain with me until I'm no longer around because they came from family and friends.

quote:

Originally posted by stevin:
I think when most people think MPC, they remember the begining of plastic truck sides on diesels and plastic steamers. I know it didn't start with mpc but I think this is what comes to mind when mpc is mentioned.

The 200 series alcos, which were brought out in the 1950's had plastic truck side frames. The later postwar switchers, such as the 624 also had plastic side frames on the trucks.

A lot of folks mention plastic gears. I understand the most folks think metal is higher quality than plastic, but in my experience, I've had to replace a lot more metal gears and bearings than plastic ones.
In fact, I recently rebuilt an 8030 series truck, which had bronze bushings on one side, and plastic on the other. The bronze bushings were seriously in need of replacement, while the plastic ones were fine.

IMHO, the one area where criticisim is deserved is on their decision to use Zamac wheels instead of sintered iron. These wheels do wear with heavy use, are sometimes found with parting seams that make the engine run unevently or wobble, and they are sometimes mounted a bit off-center.

I have a few MPC loco's myself, and find myself very interested in acquiring more.

While MPC is still bargain priced when compared to postwar, prices are rising.

Skip, I have a Betacam version of "The History of Lionel Trains". I just looked at it for you. The layout is shot from a different angle but it sure looks like the same layout. I would be your right. Don

I bought a lot of the first couple of years equipment. The New Haven F3, some of the early steam sets like the Milwaukee, etc.

Then I set up a layout. As the traction tires came off I lost interest in MPC.

I thought the Gold Chessie GP7 was great.

I had the 1970 fold out catalog above my bed in the Quonset hut when I was in the army.




The next time I bought new Lionel was the 784 B&A Hudson direct from Lionel.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: marker,

quote:

Originally posted by Sunrise Special:
This thread has me real curious. What time periods during the MPC era are the best? I thought that the majority of products had plastic gears and diesel units with one motor and no horn.

Thanks,

Sunrise

The diesels with plastic gears are worthy of display ONLY. However the steamers were ok. Later on, better quality and the return of the metal gears brought Lionel back from the brink. I Love my (late MPC) 783.

I remember a Southern Pacific Daylight A-B-A small Alco unit with GM trucks. Anyone have it or was it ever made? Don

For me, it was the Amtrak Lake Shore Limited, My Santa Fe GP 7/9s, many Box Cars, and lots of fun...

quote:

Posted September 30, 2009 05:33 PM Hide Post
I remember

Very unique A-B_A set.. The first and maybe only PW era Alco produced with operating B unit couplers.
I bought it new from Trainland.
Paid $79
Joe

quote:

Originally posted by techie:

The diesels with plastic gears are worthy of display ONLY...

Tell us of your negative experience, please... as all our MPC diesels have functioned flawlessly since 1970.

My first set was Christmas 1974; I was seven. A Sears MPC set with a 2-4-0 lettered for NKP. I ran it to death. I still have it and while the engine is toast, all the cars are as bright as they were in 1974 and all are in good shape.

Still, it was my father's postwar set that appeared the Christmas before that made me fall in love with trains. The higher quality was self-evident even to a little kid. I ran the wheels off that MPC set though, or tried to.

I still have the box, too.

quote:

Originally posted by scale rail:
I remember a Southern Pacific Daylight A-B-A small Alco unit with GM trucks. Anyone have it or was it ever made? Don

I have that. It has Blomberg type B trucks. Runs great, plastic gears & all. Came from Owen Upp!

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Originally posted by ADCX Rob:

quote:

Originally posted by techie:

The diesels with plastic gears are worthy of display ONLY...

Tell us of your negative experience, please... as all our MPC diesels have functioned flawlessly since 1970.

Still functioning properly.

Bill

Joe, did that SP Alco have two motors or one? I bought the first GP-9 built by MPC at Macy's after Christmas sale. It was a Illinois Central with lumber car stakes for handrails holders. I guess they had plenty of the old stakes left over. I still have it in the box and I'm about ready to put it up for sale. I got rid of most of my MPC but I must say I never had any problems with the engines or cars. Don

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Joe, did that SP Alco have two motors or one?

Just one Pulmor. But. unlike earlier MPC Alco's, the SP had all diecast trucks, metal gears, three position E unit, working couplers and premium graphics..
Laugh about it in 2009 but at the time the SP had it all.
If anything, call this premium MPC shelf candy for those who still own it
OH, one more item ...Can't forget..... Built "BY" Lionel...Made in America...
Joe

Thanks Joe, I remember when that engine appeared in the catalog thinking this set us really a step in the right direction. Did it really come out with GM trucks or Alco? It would be a interesting time to write about. Trying to get everything together for a new and expanding market. We couldn't wait for the new catalogs or flyers. A bunch of us would get together and order a case of engines or cars at huge discounts. When the UPS truck came to my house, we all got together and split everything up. Those were wonderful times. New guys to the hobby have to remember Lionel was the only game it town. There were Walthers kits, David O King, and a very few others, but not much. It's fun to remember those times. Don

The 8552/8553/8554 SP Alcos did have the Blomberg trucks that EMD used. And they run nicely, but are underpowered to pull an A-B-A and a long string of cars.

Because of clearance issues with the larger Blomberg trucks, the fuel tank appendage was left off of the "B" unit.

The next year, the 8756/8757/8658 CN Alco A-B-A was offered, the trucks reverted to the AAR type A, the fuel tank trim returned to the "B" unit, and the operating couplers on the "B" unit were deleted in favor of the standard fixed couplers.

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think you have the wrong year. The only mini (that I know of) was 1981, and I don't remember there being a huge layout on any of them...

Well Ed H hit "the Nail on the Head"!




Somehow as a little kid, I always envisioned this layout as a Jersey city to cranford run... with the Upper Level being the PRR NEC and the lower the Jersey Central freight line. Swap out the double girder bridges for a Lift bridge and make the yard as an TOFC/intermodal yard.

Speaking of the great looking SP Daylight ALCo cab units, another stunner was the Canadian National red, black and white FA/B set. It was positively striking and a great representation of CN's ALCo FPA4's and B's which were still powering some of Canada's premier passenger trains at the time.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by prrhorseshoecurve:

quote:

think you have the wrong year. The only mini (that I know of) was 1981, and I don't remember there being a huge layout on any of them...

Well Ed H hit "the Nail on the Head"!




Somehow as a little kid, I always envisioned this layout as a Jersey city to cranford run... with the Upper Level being the PRR NEC and the lower the Jersey Central freight line. Swap out the double girder bridges for a Lift bridge and make the yard as an TOFC/intermodal yard.

Wow... I looked through the catalog section of my "Standard Catalog of Lionel Trains 1970-2000" and didn't find this anywhere. I wasn't surprised though; that book leaves out so many pictures of trains and it doesn't even have an accessories section. What a piece of shat!

I believe some of them now power the Napa Valley WIne Train. They have number of sets. Don

quote:

Originally posted by Ed Boyle:
Matter of fact, it would help if you gave us more input on what MPC sets we should feature in upcoming editions of Collector's Gallery.

Well I am obviously going to cast my vote for the 1665 NYC Empire State Express set (I'd also vote for the 1977-1978 era General set, even though it wasn't sold as a set).

Andy

I wish to task Ed Boyle to a challenge... a challenge to do an article on that 1975 layout!

No one to my knowledge had done any article on this fascinating layout.. from it roots as a Lionel display layout.. to what really was there on that Far end of the picture! I know inquiring minds would love to know!

This got me to thinking, somewhere I remembered thoses MPC catalogs. i went out to the shop building and dug around in the loft. I found all the catalogs from 1970 through the MPC era and ending in 1992. The later ones 1990 to 1992 were damaged, but the early ones are still in their plastic sleeves I put them in when I got them each year. Im happy for this thread, cause it reminded me of something I might never have thought about again.

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Originally posted by mdainsd:
...are still in their plastic sleeves I put them in when I got them each year....

What size sleeves did you use? I tried 8.5" by 11", but those were too small...

My first Lionel catalog was 1976; my first set was the Santa Fe Double Diesel from that catalog. To me, Lionel is the MPC era. Sure, I appreciate and admire postwar, LTI, and LLC production, but those aren't the Lionel trains from my childhood, the ones I was first introduced to, the ones that made a lasting impression on me. Lionel's ownership under General Mills will always hold a fascination for me that other eras of Lionel history can't. Yes, some of it was on the cheapo side...plastic wheels, dummy couplers, fast-wearing gears...but to a five-year old in 1976, none of that mattered; it was the excitement of seeing these trains pictured in the catalog or on display in the local train shop.

A ton of material has been written on the history, development and production of Lionel during the postwar era; I can only hope that someday the MPC era will get the same treatment.

Did the 60's Lionel diesels run badly? Which diesels were poor runners? What about PW steam..any poor runners? I assumed even the cheap Lionel ran well with its AC motor. And I totally agree the General Mills rebuilt Lionel...lots of colorful stuff offered..with true play value like a real toy train. Lionel in its truest form. My favorite was the Amtrak Lakeshore Limited..from the year I was born 1976.

To what extent did MPC sell off Lionel Corp stock?

quote:

Originally posted by EricF:
So, while they made do by selling off a lot of leftover pre-1970 inventory, they had to start small and work their way toward where they wanted to take the company. -Eric

I have the RI steam set form 1973, the Chessie U36B set from 1994, the Amtrak LAKE SHORE set from 1976, the MstL SSS of 1998.

I run the Amtrak cars with the ABA F3 Amtrak set, or the Preamble F3. Have the Milw SD18.

My into to Lionel fun!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike W.:
Did the 60's Lionel diesels run badly? Which diesels were poor runners? What about PW steam..any poor runners? I assumed even the cheap Lionel ran well with its AC motor...

The entry level diesels suffered more than the steam engines. The Alcos & switchers were simplified mechanically & decoration-wise. Motors were one-axle drive with one traction tire, or no tire and a weight above the motor, or no traction aid at all. They ran OK for the sets they came with.

The steamers ran the gamut in the quality department from bargain-basement cheapos to the 736.

The 736, 2383, 2322 FM & GPs were always top quality units right to the end.

quote:

Originally posted by Ed Boyle:
Run 240, the January issue of O Gauge Railroading, will have coverage in Collector's Gallery of one of the best looking freight sets released during the MPC Era, The Royal Limited Set of 1980.

You just sold me a copy!

quote:

Matter of fact, it would help if you gave us more input on what MPC sets we should feature in upcoming editions of Collector's Gallery.

The big sets from the mid-70s (the ones I never got!):
1460 Grand National from 1974
1560 North American Express from 1975
1665 NYC Empire State Express from 1976 (would be interested to find out when and why Lionel decided to drop the track and transformer that was originally cataloged with this set)
1765 Rocky Mountain Special from 1977 (the 2-track yard in this set was a neato idea)

quote:

By the way, we covered three iconic MPC steam sets; the Southern Crescent, the Blue Comet and the Alton Limited in Run 233, the January issue and Run 234, the February/March edition of OGR.

The very reason why I purchased those two issues!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike W.:
To what extent did MPC sell off Lionel Corp stock?

6460's, 634 cabs, 1121E's, 125's, OS, OC. Some early rolling stock had postwar AAR trucks with postwar sintered iron wheels(my 9160 is like this). There are other examples.

MPC also cataloged the entire parts department in 1970 and distributed a parts price list to service stations. It's amazing how much inventory they had in old stock parts. Bargain prices too.

I am curiouse about MPC wheel material. Did all the 70's engines have the diecast wheels (white metal) with the wheels being blackened and cast wierd for some steamers? When did Lionel return to the PW style sintered iron for engines?

Sintered iron wheels returned in 1976 with the 8600 NYC 4-6-4 from the Empire State Set.

MPC put it in high gear for me too. It was like wishing for trains like a kid all over again(although I don't think that changed much anyhow). Their engines still had the smell of ozone, it was like they picked up where the original Lionel Co. left off. Some items also had 'Lionel Corp, New York' marked on them.

I forget who said it first, but Lionel to some of us, came in a red and white box. Great times, great trains, great memories...

Haha, those pics of the Chessie diesel reminded me of a train friend who desperately searched for its matching caboose for 30 years before telling me about it... Guess he never knew about Ebay. I bought it for him for his birthday. It was something like $25 brand new. He openned it and about passed out. He looked like a 5 year old openning his first train on Christmas day. He might have even shed a tear....

Good ol' MPC

The NYC 20th Century Ltd passenger set and selected 9200,9700 & 9400 series boxcars have made it into my collection.

Bob,

This is an area I have very few personal memories of during the era. My uncle had an MPC U36B in BN pulling a short train under his HO layout when I was very small and still has the same layouts to this day, but my first real MPC purchase was a Lionel PC GP7 in 2004. It was cheap and I had not fully come to grips with what I was doing in O scale yet. I still have it, but it mainly lives in a box these days.

My youth was filled with HO. Tyco at first and then Athearn, MDC, AHM finally Rivarossi and Atlas by the time I was in high school. That stayed with me until I decided to try 0 in 2003.

Odd, I know. I'm used to it by now.

I bought MPC because it was affordable, and offered engines I still couldn't afford to buy today if they were PW or LTI. They look good and run great, and I wish I had more of them. My NH ABA F-3s and NH E-33 are still among my favorites and you don't need a degree in computer science to work on them. I wish Lionel offered engines built like them today.

my first set was a rock islans cheapo set from around 1979 i also got the life savers car that same christmas a dealer had a display at a mall for the holidays and i liked the ho stuff but on the lionel layout he had a black diamond set running with a life saver car added my grandmother insisted i had to have that car.
since comming back to O i can look at the shelf behind me and look at me tank car coupled between my lv 8775 gp and matching caboose also on that shelf is a tootsie roll car and my sir walter reliegh box car that dad got mr with b&w coupons.

i forgot to mention the Blue Comet set that i always wanted and got for christmas last year minus the engine at the top of this years list is the 8801

Some of my favorites: