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As varied as MPC's product selection was, there were a few items I was hopeful would have been offered at some point but never were. My wish list was headed by the original Auto-Train. A base set consisting of one of A-T's signature U36B's, several box cars replicating auto carriers and a couple of aluminum passenger cars could have launched the line. The prototype A-T was a train of monster proportions and additional separate sale U-boats and pieces of rolling stock would have enabled a railroader to recreate a lengthy consist.
With its gaudy purple, red and white paint scheme, the original Auto-Train was quintessential 70's era railroading just as MPC was the heart and soul of three rail O gauge during that very same period - sounds like it would have been a perfect match to me. Here's a photo: http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/atc/atr4009.jpg Looked good, didn't it? Bob |
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Gaudy? Why, the auto-train livery was a veritable symphony of colors ... in harmony with the universe since time immemorial ... a palate of perfect visual pleasures rivaling the ambrosial delight of the Illinois Central Gulf or streamlined sartorial sunrise of the Southern Pacific Daylight! What, me worry? |
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The Lionel U36B would be great for an AT. Right trucks if not the right size engine. The real CR U36B's were units for AT but not accepted!
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14 pages....outrunning the G page....both great fun!
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We outran that one at page 9  These two threads would belong in an OGR forum hall of fame if one existed  -Nicholas Anthony D'Alessandro |
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MPC. Trains for Champions!
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I'll have what he's having, waiter. |
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While many fans don't seem to care for it from a prototype perspective, the 70's era is my favorite period to model. Bright colors and bold graphics were the order of the day. Chessie, Burlington Northern, Auto-Train, Conrail, Amtrak "Bloody Nose" and "Pointless Arrow" - I miss the vibrant imagery and never ending variety. Also, let's not forget all those colorful 50' per diem box cars!
 Bob |
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And waves of new SD40-2's! And to see how grimy an SP unit could get! And multi mark CP and blue/yellow VIA!
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How about Rock Island's "The ROCK" image, CN's black and white striped long hoods, CNJ "Red Baron" red and white and Chicago's multi-color RTA scheme as seen on its F40's. The F40 would have made another nice MPC piece.
Bob |
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The CNJ gp and the CN alcos are on my want list this year also an 8778 to go with my 8775
"Ladies and gentelman take my advice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice." MAJ Sidney Freedman. |
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Those are good choices. The Lehigh Valley units are sharp.
Bob |
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How many of those SAE engineered crap-o plastic gears did you strip out pulling those 2500s? You say they're On The Water, I say they're Sur l'eau. |
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None. My consists were never more than three or four cars. A unit at each end of the train provided more than ample power. Contrary to practice on many O gauge railroads, I have always been extrememly careful to avoid heavy trains. I've never had to replace the gears in any MPC unit.
My philosophy continues to this day, even with the contemporary generation of motive power which appears capable of walking away with anything which is coupled to it. These locomotives are fearsome pullers indeed; however, most of your railroading time will be spent replacing traction tires. Bob |
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I'd be interested in folks citing specific examples where these gears caused a problem. One of my buddies started out as an operator, and did have the worm wheel on a Florida East Coast Geep strip out from it's shaft. I also picked up an 8030 style geep chassis in York that needed the same gear replaced because the teeth were worn away. I don't recall whether it was a metal or plastic gear. As far as gears go, Lionel Corp #41/#53 style switchers are notorious for having their worm wheels wear out. They are metal. C.W. Burfle |
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Aren't they brass? Either way, those small switchers just weren't meant to pull much. Over the years I've replaced all of my MPC GP's chassis with the postwar cousin. Magnetraction and a horn. If you don't want the horn and dont mind repainting the frame, the PW GP can be had for a song on the bay when the frame and battery bracket are shot from battery acid. |
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Those CN black and white sriped FAs really hold their value, and aren't easy to find, esp. in great condition. There was the #8025 from 1971 (pwd A & dummy A), the #8656 pwd A from 1976, the #8657 dummy B unit from 1976 (matches the #8656), and the #8658 dummy A from 1976 (also matches #8656), which is hard to find because Lionel changed a number of those to powered units to boost sales. |
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I know hobbyists who replaced the MPC chassis and running gear with the postwar equivalent. The results were good. MPC's high nose bodies matched perfectly but the low nose shells of the GP20, SD18 and U36B required a bit of interior cutting to achieve the correct fit.
Bob |
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Only the brush plates need trimming. The shell can be left intact. Rob Proprietor, Manchester Midland & Adirondack Regional Railroad |
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Yes, the worm wheel (gear) on a postwar Lionel #41 style switcher is brass. I was trying to make the point that plastic isn't necessarily bad, or metal better. C.W. Burfle |
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Rob: Thanks for the additional modification information regarding the low nose shells. It's always good to know there's more than one solution to a given challenge.
Regarding the 41 and 51 class units, I was always extrememly careful with the load I placed on them. I don't think I ever ran one with more than three freight cars in tow. My typical operation for the 8264 CP and 8359 D&RGW plows which I still own is with two or three trailing units to simulate the typical plow extra run by most roads. The plows are essentially just along for the ride in this case. Bob |
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I don't think the load has much to do with the worm gear wearing out. I think it was more a matter of lubrication, and how well the gears meshed. After all, most Lionel diesels used gears made of the same material. C.W. Burfle |
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Yes, I think there was something wrong with the mesh on those engines. However, once in a while you get a good one. Use them as the prototypes were used and you'll get good service. You say they're On The Water, I say they're Sur l'eau. |
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The poor mesh probably accounts for the "coffee grinder" sound that most people attribute to those pieces. It isn't uncommon to find them with the well surrounding the gear filled with gold colored grease. I like to keep afew of those gears on hand. C.W. Burfle |
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The noise is the primary reason I ran/run these units very infrequently. It can be somewhat annoying. That said, I have always liked unusual motive power so these models still hold appeal for me. Indeed, they are well detailed pieces considering the time frame of their initial introduction.
Bob |
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Here's a crazy question. How did MPC start up production after the late-60's factory sale? Didn't the postwar Corporation sell everything? I'm guessing obviously everything wasn't sold, but I don't remember ever hearing what (if any) MPC had to buy or replace because a tool or part was sold at the auction.
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Apparently, when Lionel sold off the machinery, it did not include the molds and tooling that would be mounted in those machines to actually make the trains. I know as fact that they didn't sell off all the hand operated arbor presses that were used, because some friends and I own several. C.W. Burfle |
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Here's a question that might spice this topic back up! How many folks here went to the Lionel factory auction/sale? I can't think of the year. 2000 maybe? I've heard about bags of parts being sold at $3 a pound no matter what they were, lots of misc freight cars that had a prototype car thrown in, and lots of used/damaged locomotives sold as-is in lots. Was it something sad, or really something to see? I remember wanting to go, but made a reservation with Madison Hardware for that same week without realizing it. I still kick myself for that one.
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This doesn't have to do with the 1966 machinery sale, but I remember reading in T&M that there was a serious effort to retrieve the 2029 tooling. It appears they got the shell dies back, albeit with difficult-to-explain changes. Is it possible the original 2-6-4 mechanism tooling was lost? |
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I didn't attend the auction either. My purchases were made on the secondary market. At the time of the auction, the folks in charge seemed to do everything possible to dissuade plain ole folks like me from attending. From what I have read, and discussed with people who did attend, the auction itself would have been of little interest, other than the paint masks that were sold at auction. Had I made it to the parts sale, we probably wouldn't be able to park cars in our garage. C.W. Burfle |
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One of the Lionel history books has comments about Lionel running into difficulties retreiving tools that were sent off-site to have parts made. At the moment, I don't recall which book. my first guess would be volume IV of the TM Collector Guide and History of Lionel, which covers 1970 to 1980. Perhaps I will look through the book during lunch today. C.W. Burfle |
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The two stories I remember were that the #2029 tools used in Japan for 1969 production (YES: The vaunted Lionel Corporation produced their last die-cast steamer in the orient!). They had a hard time getting those tools back which may explain why the 2-6-4 became a 4-4-2.
The other famous story of course is the one where the 2 ton stamping tool for the transforer laminations rolled off the flatbed truck somewhere on the streets of Detroit. They finally found it undamaged at the Michigan State Police Lost & Found. Jon 
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An interesting MPC tooling story I read recently pertains to the HO EL-C rectifier which was offered during the postwar era. When MPC management decided to enter the HO market, it apparently had intentions of releasing the EL-C. Unfortunately, its reissue did not come to pass as the tooling was in very poor shape and deemed unusable.
Bob |
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Periodically over the years there were bits of information given by folks at Lionel about various tools etc. that had been lost or were no longer usable. Usually this information was given in response to questions about Lionel again making available something from the Postwar period. My recollection is that the machinery for making Super O track was no longer available, for one.
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The Super O tooling is available, and it works. The rails have been used on the Radioactive waste cars and the 175 re-issue.  Some BLACK tie track blanks have been molded recently. This message has been edited. Last edited by: ADCX Rob, Rob Proprietor, Manchester Midland & Adirondack Regional Railroad |
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CNJ: I thought the Rectifier tooling was Athearns. Or was it just'under contract' from Lionel?
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I think the EL-C mechanism was Athearn, Lionel molded the shell.
Rob Proprietor, Manchester Midland & Adirondack Regional Railroad |
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Lionel developed and manufactured the EL-C shell which was mounted on an Athearn chassis. The model sold by Athearn featured hand rails whereas the same item marketed as part of Lionel's line did not.
I still see the EL-C pop up at meets from time to time. Bob |
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Their has been a PRR one at every train meet here locally for the last four years by the same vendor. At $150.00 though it's a bit much for an HO piece for me. It must be the Athearn marketed one because it has the handrails.
Great drives and still are by many counts. Most of my older post 'hi-fi' drives are still running great. Off course the rubber band ones with new rubber bands will still go to warp 7 at the slightest touch of the throttle This thread reminded me that my uncle has the MPC Blue Comet. It still runs on a board under his more "serious" HO layout of all Varney that I don't think has changed since I was born in 1969. Jonathan Peiffer Modeling the NY&LB in Arizona Still counting rivets ... always so many to count |
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I might be mistaken - it's been awhile. Mike Spanier is the guy who would know. But it does seem that I heard this from somewhere. None of my radioactive waste cars uses Super O track. |
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Mike is the "go to man" for Super O so he'd know for sure. Mike....Mike....Paging H. Mike Spanier.....Are you out there?
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I remember the "Great Train Robbery" years ago when Lionel was getting ready to reissue the scale Hudson. I'm fuzzy about the details but I believe someone stole the prototype and the Michigan State Police were investigating. Don't remember how it turned out.
John |
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I've read whatever material I can find regarding the production archives maintained by MPC as I find the story fascinating. In fact, TM Books published a volume dedicated to the archives as part of its series of Lionel books. If I recall correctly, a number of items disappeared from the archives during MPC's early years. As a result, security was tightened and access to these items became very limited.
Bob |
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I recently watched volume one, Toy Train Revue, spring 1991.
It contained segments on the Lionel archives, and on Kughn's purchase and relocation of Madision Hardware. C.W. Burfle |
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There were some fascinating items pictured in TM's archives book. Since I'm a CNJ fan, of particular interest to me were the samples of double ended carbody units utilizing the F3 shell. Clearly, Lionel's designers were contemplating the production of a locomotive based upon CNJ's famous Baldwin DRX6-4-2000 "double enders."
Bob |
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I too find it facinating. I think there could've been so much more covered on the subject. The way Lionel is issuing its "archive collection" series of items I don't remember ever seeing or reading anything about. Then there have been collection articles in the magazines where a few archive pieces are shown in the guys collection. While the TM book and even the Toy Train Reveue video do show the archives, there's so much more history that we'll now never know due to it being locked away in someone's collection. |
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For those interested in the Lionel archives, the 1970-1989 TM "pocket" Price & Rarity guide has quite a few photos in it. From a reference standpoint for MPC & modern, the guides are great. Many times you can find these older guides really cheap at shows or even some dealers.
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It's a shame some of the items in the archives never made it into production. The black and orange B&LE F-unit pictured in the TM book was really sharp.
Bob |
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I would love to have a model of this one. MTH has done correct Autotrain car carriers in the past in the 70's scheme and in the most recent catalog the newer 80's and 90's schemes. I have one in white red and purple. I want a few more and some full domes. I think a Williams U boat would be a good one because it is longer than the Lionel. What I really want is a model of the Seaboard Family Lines U boat with the early really ugly boxy crew cab. I remember these running. |
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