Art the early MPC hudson you are searching for sounds like the 8206 with the elesco water heater if you come across one make sure you run it before you buy it some of these had their wheels drilled at the wrong angle or something like that and wobble quite badly especially on tubular track. i can run mine on fastrack and barely notice it but it's just too scary to run on tubular it's a shame though it's really sharp engine and a good runner/puller/smoker.

Any good or bad words about the Milwaukee Road F-3 Service Station Set from 1975? It had a AA Milwaukee Road F-3 (one single motor and one dummy), a D&M red quad hopper, a Libby's vat car, a NYC "Pacemaker" box, an Alaska box, and an SP style MR caboose.

Would $400 be too high a price for a mint set?

quote:

Originally posted by C W Burfle:

quote:

(don't know why, given that it has no significant additional value any more)

Collecting isn't about money.

I agree. And to each his own. I was only pointing out that this item doesn't garner much attention anymore, at least partly because the exact same cranes became ubiquitous, and therefore the crane can be opened without regret, because it is easily replaced.

While some would prefer to collect things which other people seem to care more about, that really doesn't matter. I have quite a few MPC items that I will NOT sell because I like them a lot more than the value of what I could sell them for (to ignorant heathens ), and also because they give me a lot of pleasure. Also, most of them would take a good bit of work to replace, especially given the mint condition they're in. As discussed by many above, quite a few MPC era items, especially in mint condition, have gotten very hard to find. If others don't care about them, it is likely they are just ignorant, meaning uneducated, in my opinion.

Ultimately, of course, collecting is all about personal preference, and the satisfaction the items give their owner. One of my sons, when he was young, collected (common) rocks he thought looked "pretty." And that was great, if it pleased him.

quote:

Originally posted by Tinplate Art:
Any good or bad words about the Milwaukee Road F-3 Service Station Set from 1975? It had a AA Milwaukee Road F-3 (one single motor and one dummy), a D&M red quad hopper, a Libby's vat car, a NYC "Pacemaker" box, an Alaska box, and an SP style MR caboose.

Would $400 be too high a price for a mint set?

That's a pretty common price for this set these days, but I'd try to get it down a bit lower (I suppose obviously!). There was also a dummy B unit add-on available for these. These engines mimicked the Postwar versions in decoration, but did not have the yellow stripe along the top of the cabs (but most Postwar models didn't either, of course). The major difference, cosmetically, was that the MPC versions were produced in a significantly lighter shade of grey than the Postwar versions (and also than the more recent LTI Command Control/RailSounds equipped version). Some thought that the lighter shade didn't look quite as good as the darker shade.

The big shortcoming of these engines, and the main thing to look for, is the condition of the large decal on the front of the engines (these were produced well before paint application techniques for models had progressed to where they are today, so decals were used for complex colored designs). These particular decals have a real tendency to flake off pieces with time, and it's rare to find them with relatively complete front decals in place. I bought a mint, unopened set about 12 years ago, and once it was opened I found one engine's decal to be in bad shape, with pieces all over the plastic liner, while the decal on the other engine was in almost perfect condition. I think replacement decals for the Postwar versions are around, which should be appropriate to use on the MPC engine as well. If the originals are in good shape, I'd certainly apply one of the decal products available right away to seal it.

quote:

Ultimately, of course, collecting is all about personal preference, and the satisfaction the items give their owner. One of my sons, when he was young, collected (common) rocks he thought looked "pretty." And that was great, if it pleased him.

I agree 100 percent. I am amused by folks who think they need to wait for the experts to tell them what to collect. To me its a lot more fun to find something to collect that hasn't been analysed to death by an expert. Not only do you get to do your own research, but you wind up meeting people with similar interests, make new friends, exchange information, and so on.

quote:

I took the suggestion of one of you fellows earlier on this thread about running those cars behind the MPC EP-5. I was lucky to find one in mint condition at Grzyboski's!

I put together a set of the Pennsylvania Baby Madisons, and put them behind an MPC Pennsy EP-5. It makes a nice set too.
Unfortuneately, the set was a victim of a round of thinning. I wouldn't mind purchasing a replacement. As I've mentioned in the past, most of the stuff on my want list are things I had, but did not hold onto.

Williams did issue its EP5 in a powered/non-powered combination decorated for Penn Central. The last two EP5's remained in local service out of Morrisville, PA following Conrail's inception. Re-classed E40, they were often used on A1 and A2 operating between Morrisville and Browns Yard along the original Camden & Amboy Railroad. The locomotive would sometimes operate all the way through to South Amboy.

Bob

With my command control disconnected while the layout is under a small expansion, I thought I'd give the conventional classics a few spins..
Here you go, 30+ years off the rails, still loud and still running smooth..
Joe

I owned all three MPC rectifiers at one point. I often wondered why a Penn Central version wasn't offered. Such a locomotive would have made a nice companion piece for the PC GG1 and GP7.

Bob

A SS special growling its way down a grade through the contruction zone.
With DCS connections and no dead spots on the rails, I'm re-discovering these relics.
Joe

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JC642,

SWEET!

quote:

Originally posted by C W Burfle:
I put together a set of the Pennsylvania Baby Madisons, and put them behind an MPC Pennsy EP-5. It makes a nice set too.
Unfortuneately, the set was a victim of a round of thinning. I wouldn't mind purchasing a replacement. As I've mentioned in the past, most of the stuff on my want list are things I had, but did not hold onto.

Just FYI, Lionel did a nice PWC Pennsy EP-5 a couple years ago, with TMCC, R/S, etc.

quote:

Just FYI, Lionel did a nice PWC Pennsy EP-5 a couple years ago, with TMCC, R/S, etc.

I had a couple of the MPC ones. I think the number is 8551.
I sold one with the passenger cars, and the second one by itself.

quote:

Originally posted by JC642:

I always thought that was a cool-looking engine. I'm interested to see what the recently cataloged remake (with TMCC, R/S, etc.) will look like.

Will likely pass on the MR F-3 SSS set due to the decal problem - I do not like "crapshoots"!

I am looking for a "Kickapoo Valley & Northern" MPC caboose. Color preference below. Prefer like-new or mint.

1. red

2. yellow

3. green

THANKS!

quote:

Originally posted by Tinplate Art:
Will likely pass on the MR F-3 SSS set due to the decal problem - I do not like "crapshoots"!

The engines would be fine, but just be sure to check out the decals before you buy. I wouldn't buy an unopened set if you can't look at the engines first.

Although not in this picture, Tom Cruise used the Pennsy Baby Madison cars and EP-5 combination in Risky Business.

Jon

When we purchased our PRR EP5, I quickly applied keystone decals to those shiny rivet heads at each end of the locomotive. Doing so improved its appearance considerably.

Bob

I've got a baby rectifier in Conrail! It looks cute next to the two MTH E33's and my two Williams versions. I always planned on using it as a yard switcher. After all, a Conrail that stayed with electrification and extended it to Detroit, Chicago, and Saint Louis would've needed more electric switchers.

A page from the Isle of Denial, but a fun thought nonetheless.

Jonathan:

Do you remember the HO four axle rectifier built under both the Lionel and Athearn banners during the late 50's? I still see these pop up from time to time.

Bob

Bob - yes! I have seen those at train meets from time to time. There is a local dealer whose had one for sale for at least five years and can't understand why no one want's to pay $175.00 for it. It is Tuscan PRR. I am remotely interested, but not at that price. I never picked it up, is it a real Athearn drive or one of those rubber band drive creations?

A local TCA member has a bunch of Lionel HO made during this period. A lot was done by Athearn. I haven't figured out who did the FA's for Lionel though. They look like "Train Minatures". Yet another fine company that is no longer around.

Jonathan:

According to the old Greenberg Lionel HO guide, production of the EL-C was truly a joint effort. Lionel supplied the shell and Athearn built the mechanism. The locomotive remained in Lionel's product range after having been dropped by Athearn. I believe Athearn dropped the model in 1958 or '59 whereas Lionel catalogued it into the early 60's.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by CNJ 3676:
When we purchased our PRR EP5, I quickly applied keystone decals to those shiny rivet heads at each end of the locomotive. Doing so improved its appearance considerably.

Bob

The PWC EP-5s use modern print processes, and everything that used to be a decal is now beautifully painted. This is far superior in appearance. The rivets are covered, too.

quote:

Originally posted by KOOLjock1:
Although not in this picture, Tom Cruise used the Pennsy Baby Madison cars and EP-5 combination in Risky Business.

Jon

Incidently, besides the EP-5 train, he also used the Nos. 8857/8858 Northern Pacific U-36 power and dummy engines in the movie. I always liked their black, red and yellow paint scheme. I think you can see part of one on the far left side of the photo.

That beautiful object at the rear of the photo looks like maybe she's working a Cab 1, but I guess probably not.

The Northern Pacific U-boats are nicely decorated units. Between the NP, CB&Q, GN and BN equipment which was released over the years by MPC, you could do some decent transitional Burlington Northern modeling.

I always felt bad for the SP&S guys - not much there.

Bob

A locomotive which was released in a wide variety of road names by MPC was the NW2. Whereas this unit had been issued primarily in single or two color paint schemes during the postwar era, Fundimensions saw fit to offer it in numerous multiple color schemes, many of which were downright stunning. Chessie, Rock Island and CP Rail were some of my favorites. Does anyone have pictures of MPC NW2's they can post?

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by CNJ 3676:
...Does anyone have pictures of MPC NW2's they can post?

Bob

Rob,

Those UP units are either L-T-I or even Lionel, LLC!

Jon

quote:

Originally posted by KOOLjock1:
Rob,

Those UP units are either L-T-I or even Lionel, LLC!

Jon

They are 1996 LTI/LLC transition pieces.

By and large MPC made a variety of trains. Much of it like the box cars were very stark others like the F3's, aluminum passenger cars and GG1's were pretty decent although very basic in features. MPC didn't do too much to upgrade the Lionel product and ignored all but the simplest accessories but they did keep the brand going until the collector market kicked in and started to develop. MPC was largely a product made by American workers and that's the main reason that I like it. They are perfectly reliable. A far cry from the low quality Chicom stuff made by cheap uneducated labor that is sold today.

quote:

By and large MPC made a variety of trains. Much of it like the box cars were very stark others like the F3's, aluminum passenger cars and GG1's were pretty decent although very basic in features. MPC didn't do too much to upgrade the Lionel product and ignored all but the simplest accessories but they did keep the brand going until the collector market kicked in and started to develop. MPC was largely a product made by American workers and that's the main reason that I like it. They are perfectly reliable. A far cry from the low quality Chicom stuff made by cheap uneducated labor that is sold today.

MPC began production from digging through bins of degraded parts in Hillside. Lionel had already begun the process of degrading the product line 10 years earlier so the new guys didn't have much to work with. It all ended in 1968 with junk trains so badly built, it was worse in quality then the initial MPC product line.
I give MPC credit for bringing the PW product line back from death.
Joe

quote:

Originally posted by JC642:

...It all ended in 1968 with junk trains so badly built, it was worse in quality then the initial MPC product line...
Joe

I take it, then, you were not impressed with the 1968 catalog presentation of "The Greatest Train Set Of All Time" ? (I am going by memory here - the catalog is filed away)

quote:

I take it, then, you were not impressed with the 1968 catalog presentation of "The Greatest Train Set Of All Time" ? (I am going by memory here - the catalog is filed away)

Rob

The carryover #736 Berk and 6464's were the only nice items offered in that three page folder..
Other then the O-27 set you're discribing most all the PW engines had already been stripped out, RS trash built in plastic or discontinued years before.
It's that degraded junk MPC brought back to presentable condition.
Joe

quote:

It all ended in 1968 with junk trains so badly built, it was worse in quality then the initial MPC product line.

Ended in 1968?
Why leave out 1969 production?
Engines included the 2029, 2041, 2024, 645, and one of the cheapo scout engines. There were a number of 6464 boxcars, and a nice tanker.

I agree that quaility was just about at an all time low, and that MPC actually improved much of the line.

We are almost to page 14!

The moderators should just make this a sticky thread. It's always hanging around anyway! (not a bad thing of course)

quote:

Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
By and large MPC made a variety of trains. Much of it like the box cars were very stark others like the F3's, aluminum passenger cars and GG1's were pretty decent although very basic in features. MPC didn't do too much to upgrade the Lionel product

"By and large" they made a variety of trains? Huh? They made a HUGE variety of trains, far more than the original Lionel company did.

"Much of it like the box cars were very stark"?

Double huh? Most of them were anything but stark. They were extremely colorful and interesting, with road names that had never been done before. There were also styles that had never been done before, like the many reefers, which were also finished in new ways, including factory weathered.

"MPC didn't do too much to upgrade the Lionel product."??? Say what? Let's see, to name just a few....

The postwar decorating techniques were limited to decals, heat stamping, rubber stamping, and some silk-screening. MPC used people knowledgeable in new decorating processes known as electrocal and tampo. By these means, colorful contemporay railroad paint schemes could be applied to MPC trains. MPC also introduced new motor types, including the Type III, a DC can motor, for the first time.

As far as the classic F-3, MPC reintroduced the open, glassed portholes that the old Lionel Corp. had abandoned, and restored other deluxe trim items. MPC also introduced nose grab-irons, and made "B" units available for all sets. MPC also introduced the GP-20, and GP variations like the GP-35, and the SD models. MPC also produced, for the first time, GE U-36Bs and U-36Cs, totally new engines.

One could go on and on with this.

Whether or not people feel MPC upgraded the product, there's no denying MPC kept Lionel ALIVE. IMHO that was their greatest achievement

Agree with Breezinup completely. The mighty sound of steam (static), the BB roller in starter set tenders, the hi-cube boxcar, auto carrier car, and snap-on smoke deflecters, just to add a few more improvements to Breezinups list. Some may not be partial to them today, but they were pretty cool in the 70's if you remember.
Be honest with yourself, if you stripped out a nylon gear, you were probably pulling too much weight, and didn't lube anything. It was a different time, without the internet to get instant answers to questions. The postwar Pennsy GP-7 didn't pull much, either...
MPC moved the hobby forward more than any other 3-rail manufacturer. Buy an original Williams engine from the 70's or early 80's (and I love Williams Trains now!), and see what I mean. MPC set the stage for what we are getting now. Williams had to up the quality, Companies like 3rd. Rail and Weaver found there niche,ROW tried, and MTH tried to please everyone all the time in an attempt to own Lionel ( I have MTH products, also, and am happy with them.).
Lionel keeps moving forward. MPC started the trend, and up to today, modern Lionel is moving forward. You may not like what they're producing, but someone does, because they are there year after year.

i must agree MPC kept the hobby going with new products and they didn't seem afraid to try new things even it didn't always work out.
i spent some time today on temporary floor central running my LV 8775 and RDG 8153 double headed.

The Big Question: Will the Conventional Classic Geeps come with the frame turned downward like MPC and the rest of there geeps or will Lionel make the frame with the edges turned up like Post-War did it. Can anybody tell me why MPC turned the edges downward????????

Also, if you own any of the first 5 F3-that is-MPC made B&O, Amtrak, CP ss, Rio Grand ss, and Milwaukee Road ss -- and you bought the B unit ABA--check the painting on the roof line and maybe you will have ones where the B unit was masked wrong and the paint creeps around the top and starts down the side of the unit.
I have also seen this in the A's. That means if you were looking closely at the units, the paint line does not match on some of the B units with the A paint line. This is not true of all of the B's. Some one had a bad hairdo day the day they did the B units.

Do you own some of MPCs first Aluminum Passenger Train Sets--check out the combo car--the plastic window inserts are made of white plastic with passengers
stamped on...but the rest of the cars have a translucent (different color) window insert.

Why did MPC Lionel use Plastic or Nylon for engine gears? If you watch Barrett in the Backshop Videos, he shows you how to fix stripped gears in the early GP20
engines......

I was talking to the late Joe Davis and he told me several locos that had armatures made of nylon were brought in for repair cause the motor got very hot and melted the nylon. Eventually a light bulb went on up at Lionel and they switched the material to the dark bakelite(?) use in the postwar ac motors..

There is alot of nutty things that MPC did to the trains in the first 10 years but I just accepted that Lionel had very poor quality control in the first 10 years. regards...the bear

The disaster was the Geeps and Cabooses that had rod stock for pick up rollers
on the first cabooses made in Mt. Clemenes and also this pick up was on the very first steam locos.

The only great thing that came of all of these comedy of terrors was when Richard Kughn took over, quality control really went up. Yes, there was some problems with his trains--but nothing like what happened between 1970 and 1980.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: railbear601,

quote:

Originally posted by railbear601:
..Can anybody tell me why MPC turned the edges downward????????

It was to hide the Delrin "slides" on the integrated power trucks adapted from the 600 series switchers, which all had their frames turned downward. One step was removed from the tooling for the pilots, too, from 3 to 2.

railbear:

The glass is either half-full or half-empty. Yes, mistakes were made then as now. Apparently they still have "bad hair days" in China, and with $1200 engines to boot!

Myself, I prefer the glass to be HALF FULL!

I give MPC/Fundamensions a thumbs-up for innovation and keeping Lionel "alive" during a difficult period of transition.

quote:

It was to hide the Delrin "slides" on the integrated power trucks adapted from the 600 series switchers, which all had their frames turned downward. One step was removed from the tooling for the pilots, too, from 3 to 2.

Also, Postwar Lionel attached the handrails to the sides. In the early MPC era, the handrails were either made from flatcar stakes, or plastic. The upturned sides would have stuck out like a sore thumb.

quote:

MPC also introduced nose grab-irons, and made "B" units available for all sets. MPC also introduced the GP-20, and GP variations like the GP-35, and the SD models. MPC also produced, for the first time, GE U-36Bs and U-36Cs, totally new engines.

One could go on and on with this.

Yep, each one a Lionel modern era original, some not reissued since.
The liftbridge & Sandy Andy are two that come to mind.
Joe

Maybe I missed it, since this is a loooong thread, but one of the greatest innovations of MPC Lionel were the fast angle wheels. This allowed one to pull longer trains, especially on tight 0-27 curves, which is what they were including in all their early sets. It also put less strain on the plastic gears. I had powered and dummy E-L geeps made in 1979 or 1980 and pulled some pretty hefty loads over an extended period of years and didn't have any gear trouble. This whole discussion has brought back a lot of fond memories. The calalogs, while not having the fine art work we all came to love with post war Lionel, had a lot of variety and make enjoyablew reading today. I have TMCC, but I still love to run in conventional mode. In fact, I find myself doing that more all the time. Dick

quote:

Originally posted by C W Burfle:

quote:

It was to hide the Delrin "slides" on the integrated power trucks adapted from the 600 series switchers, which all had their frames turned downward. One step was removed from the tooling for the pilots, too, from 3 to 2.

Also, Postwar Lionel attached the handrails to the sides. In the early MPC era, the handrails were either made from flatcar stakes, or plastic. The upturned sides would have stuck out like a sore thumb.

It's too bad neither Lionel nor MPC made a nice die-cast frame with wire handrails for the Geeps, as was done for the NW-2.

Regarding the subject of running MPC diesels in multiple, one of my favorite types of operations to replicate was push pull passenger train operation. I would use the postwar 2500 series silver cars since they are generic in appearance and would position an MPC unit at each end of the train. CNJ and subsequent Conrail, NJDOT and NJ Transit operations regularly featured trains configured in push pull mode and it was great fun to model this operation.

Bob

This has been a great thread. Thanks to all of the guys who gave some insight on why MPC did what they do. But, once pad printing came out from mpc, the rivets were put back on many box cars cause the pad printing did a good job of decorating right over the rivets.
Richard Kughn is my idol and so is Mike Wolf. Without these men trying to out do each other, we would not have the fine trains in the year 2009.
Great things from Lionel...fast angle wheels that allowed lots of cars to be pulled by one or two engines. All of the nice accessories that are now on the market. The Post War Celebration and Conventional Classics are a great idea in this recessionary times. I have 8 I-8 scale cabooses from Lionel and they are beautiful. Lionels use of large fat boy speakers. But MTH is right on Lionel nose with beautiful N&W Js. Proto-2 etc. But one of the most interesting things that was shot down alot was Conventional Trains. Remember Mike Wolf made beautiful Diecast Engines via Samhogsa several years ago for Lionel. The Reading T-1 in both Reading and Chessie Steam Special decorations. The Mikados that were D&RG and Southern were beautiful. Heads up folks...if you want to buy some Beautiful engines at nearly 50% off, just check out the price for the Reading T-1 and the Mikados. I saw a Berkshire this week at the Lakota High School (west) NMRA meet and none of these engines were over $500.00. So you guys/gals who want a beautiful Mth or Lionel locomotive at a lower price...Now is the time to buy Proto-1 engines and also some of the early 1990s engines. You can run all your trains together if you choose to use Coventional. For me the vision line is too expensive and I'll stick with what I have. And Fastrack really is good stuff....Before one buys an engine you will have to choose--Conventional, TMCC, Legacy, Proto-1 and Proto-2 but the most unique thing about
all of the engines...they all work very nicely in Conventional....long live the
conventional train set......regard railbear

This message has been edited. Last edited by: railbear601,

quote:

Originally posted by railbear601:
I saw a Berkshire this week at the Lakota High School (west) NMRA meet and none of these engines were over $500.00. So you guys/gals who want a beautiful Mth or Lionel locomotive at a lower price...Now is the time to buy Proto-1 engines and also some of the early 1990s engines. .regard railbear

Buying these things may make some sense (but not at $500 or anywhere close!) if you only run conventional. And if you get a REALLY low price on a Proto 1 engine, and run Command Control, it may be worth spending the extra money to put a TMCC/RailSounds system in it (like ERR's offerings). Adding Proto 2 is too expensive. However, spending $500.00 on a Proto 1 steamer and then adding Command Control and RailSounds makes little sense when you can get (for example) relatively recent production Lionel scale Berks for $700 or less. The newer engines have far more detail, and of course are already equipped with all the many extras that earlier engines lack.