I started working on the attic where my new layout will be, so far I put the floor down insulated the 2 side walls. Insulation still needs to be added to the roof. It is very cold up there but it is dry although the gable vents allow the air to travel through the space. Anyhow since I been in this space I had 2 failures. My mth ps-2 wont start and a lionel engine has garbled sounds. I know it could just be the battery but I am worrying that moisture could be the problem. Is there a way to tell? Does anyone else run trains in an attic and if so has there been any problems and what would be the best way to regulate the climate up there?

You need to maintain the space at a constant temperature. The attic can get warm enough by day and cool enough by night to cause condensate, especially in metals

My Dad live din Central New Jersey from the time he returned from the war until the day he died. Somewhere around 1964, he put our post war trains in the attic and he passed on in 2002.

It was typically over 100 at times in July and August and below zero in the winter.

In 2004, I took the trains out of there boxes, put them on the track, applied some oil and they ran, and still run, like champs.

If you're running contemporary trains that are fitted with all the electronics such as sound boards, command control, etc., they really need to be in an environment not unlike one you would maintain for any electronic devices, such as your computers, on a continual basis. Humidity and high heat, in particular, are not friends of electronic gizmos.

I had pre-war, post war, and MPC trains in my parents unheated attic in the Chicagoland area and no damage, save the silverfish eating the labels off the bottom of the pre-war cars. I really had no choice in the matter.

Stevin,

I think your failures are not related to your attic but coincidence.

Now that I said that you still need to finish the area properly. When you insulate the roof make sure you use those foam panels to keep the ventilation space under the roof itslef. Hopefully you are then going to sheetrock it which should seal up most of your environmental problems. At that point you may or may not need to heat and dehumidify it seasonally but only you will know that.

Stevin --

I grew up down the road in Lynchburg.

Unless you have cooling up there, the un-insulated attics in central VA are dad-gum hostile places to store trains. Unbearably humid and un-godly hot in the summer, i would expect condensation in winter / fall / spring too.

Ah dunno. I wouldn't do it.

-- gary

This does not pertain to attics, but it does pertain to items left in metal storage buildings. A long time ago I learned from a man in the business of detached storage buildings that an aluminum metal storage building will build up condensation on steel tools and a steel or tin building will not if there is no climate control. The aluminum makes your tools really rust up. I have found this axiom to be true. Wooden storage buildings seem to not cause any additional condensation more than a steel or tin building.

Unless the attic was climate controlled year around, I would NEVER store anything in an attic space!

Have you been up in the attic in the summer? I spent a little time up in mine replacing the thermostat on my attic fan (not a whole house fan). I'm in NY. It was about 105 - 110 in the attic. I think I set the fan to go on at about 105.

It averages 87 degrees in Charlottesville in July and 86 in August. I would expect that you need to air condition your home in the summer, and it's going to be unbearably hot in the attic. Before you spend too much money up there, I'd check it out in the summer.

When I was in my prior house, my trains and layout was kept in the attic for almost a decade. I don't believe the attic's environment created any problems for the newer stuff.

I have made some attic finds...bases on 397 coal loaders crumbled...die cast searchlight/cable cars crumbledanything of a cast nature may deteriorate...plastic shells/bodies can warp in extreme heat...you just have to be careful!!!

Just take a look at all those warped bodies and heaved frames on 2023 Alcos
for example. Since loads of them were attic stored for years, I leave you
all to draw your own conclusion. There are a few of these with minimal warp
and heave out there; I suspect these were stored in a more friendly
environment. Lesson: DON'T store trains in a non friendly attic - EVER!!!
Just imagine what will happen to todays trains with all those fragile
electronics, after fifty years in an alternating oven/freezer !!

The year round expansion and contraction caused by the temperature extremes is a real cause for concern. Even with powered gable and roof fans its still really hot up there in the summer.

I've done it out of necessity but its not good for anything. Like Allan said particularly the electronics.

quote:

Originally posted by stevin:
...the gable vents allow the air to travel through the space.

So will the dust and dirt on a windy day.

This space is all I have for my trains at the moment, I plan on insulating the rest of the roof but the gable vent s will have to be there either way. Is it just not a good place to have trains. Would a dehumidifier be a good idea?

Many replied that an attic without climate control was a bad idea when you asked in October. Which part did you not understand?



What, me worry?

quote:

Would a dehumidifier be a good idea?

My guess is the roof vents would negate the use of a dehumidifier because the thing would be running almost continually, and that'll sure have an impact on your electric bill.

Surely there are better places for a layout or storage space than the typical roast in summer and freeze in winter attic!

Actually right now, the attic is the ONLY place I have to run my trains and its a large space that I could build a decent size layout. I intend on redoing it so that climate wont be an issue but I am lost as to what I should do to the gable vents. I know they are needed. Someone suggested that I box out a space above my head and reroute the air flow from the vents through that space.

quote:

Originally posted by Alfred E Neuman:
Many replied that an attic without climate control was a bad idea when you asked in October. Which part did you not understand?



What, me worry?

Actually I was given many different responses and alot of advice on what my options were. I had no other choice but to keep my trains up there as I am strapped for space and most said that summer would be the problem. I figured I have to the summer to get things corrected as far as insulation and humidity control.

Personally, I think it's a mistake to devote a lot of time and effort constructing a layout in a space that may not be suitable for it. It's better to to at least address the basic issues beforehand, because it's very difficult to do much once a layout has been built. It doesn't have to be a perfect space (and you don't have to necessarily spend a lot of money), but you at least want climate control, adequate electrical service, and, in general, a safe place to operate your trains.

Stevin:

There are many people here who use their attics for layouts, including myself. It's the only place I can "grab" a bunch of space without kicking my kids out of the house. FWIW, I've kept my gable vents open. There's not too much humidity where we are, so that's less of a problem for me than for some.

The suitability of an attic for 3R trains depends on how livable the space is. For example, my attic has insulation in both the floor and roof joists, so it is a nice temperature there during the winter, even with the open gable. During the summer, less so, but I installed an AC to lower the temp a bit on the hottest days. That reduces the temp in my attic from about 100 degrees to a more reasonable 85 degrees. The cost to run it is less than building a new addition.

NH Chris

quote:

Originally posted by stevin:
Someone suggested that I box out a space above my head and reroute the air flow from the vents through that space.

That is probably the best way to do it. Are there eave vents that vent into that attic space? If so you would probably need to install baffles extending into the attic space if you don't have them already. They would extend into the ceiling area you create, and that space would be vented by the gables. Then you would have complete air flow from the eaves to the gable vents. Otherwise if the entire wall/roof area is insulated, there's really no need for the gable vents. And if you leave the gable vents open to the attic space, then insulating does nothing. Sounds like what you want to do is finish the attic space. If you do all that work to insulate the space you may as well add drywall too. Next problem then is not having any ventilation at all in the attic. Is there a location where you could add windows and/or a window A/C unit?

don

quote:

Originally posted by stevin:
I started working on the attic where my new layout will be, so far I put the floor down insulated the 2 side walls. Insulation still needs to be added to the roof.

Stevin,
1. Does your township require a building permit for your project?
2. Is your homeowner's insurance company aware of your project?
3. Did you get a quote to repair or replace the roof?

Once again, I highly recommend that you speak with a professional that can inspect the attic and guide you with your project. It will be money well spent.

Matt

quote:

If you're running contemporary trains that are fitted with all the electronics such as sound boards, command control, etc., they really need to be in an environment not unlike one you would maintain for any electronic devices, such as your computers, on a continual basis. Humidity and high heat, in particular, are not friends of electronic gizmos.

I agree entirely with this, but sometimes we have to take what we can get in available storage. I keep the non-electronic trains and cars in an unheated attic space and the electronic engines under the layout in an add-on upstairs room with some but not really enough heat and cooling...that's just the way the house was built.

So far no problems, but I also keep the electronic engines in their original boxes which gives pretty good insulation. That's yet another good reason for keeping those boxes!!

Btw, this subject has been covered before several times over the years here, but given all the new members who are constantly coming on board it doesn't hurt to brush up on this and certain other things from time to time.

I don't believe the roof has eave vents. The gable vents however look as though they could be fitted with a small air conditioner in the summers hotter months.

I'm not trying to throw a wrench into this discussion but I had to store my stuff in the attic un til could get my layout done. My layout or train room had not been started. All the things that make up a layout was pretty much in the attic. This was in the south, summer and winter, 120 plus to 15 above zero un- insulated space. I honestly tell you no damage to anything. All different product lines.

Thats a nice thing to hear.

I inherited my grandfather's post-war Lionel trains, accessories, and track after being stored in an attic for ~20 years.

The only damage was incurred to the wiring of switch and remote-control track section controllers. I had to replace just about all of the 3- and 4-wire cables for these.

The engines and accessories required a lot of oil and grease, but they run as well as I remember as a kid.

A permanent layout is like a swimming pool or vacation home - not everyone can have one. Storing Postwar trains (presumably secured in containers to afford some protection) in an unregulated attic is not the same as operating modern trains in such an environment.

Stevin,

Put your kids in the attic and use their rooms for your layout, that way you won't have to move the layout when they leave for college.

Just kidding.

Find a good contractor, either a friend or hire one to at least advise you. It will be money well spent.

I think that hiring someone for advice on what exactly I should do is the way I will go. I definetely need someone to advise me on this one.

I would consider other alternatives, unless you have someone who knows about insulating under your roof. As someone already mentioned you absolutely must leave a way for air to get under the roof by using those foam panels. Otherwise your roof will get moisture and it will rot.

Another point, with the temp extremes you will be experiencing; your rail will expand and contract visibly, possibly causing it to buckle in the summer and lose electrical contact in the winter.

If you can decide on almost any other solution it would be better. A pullout layout under a bed, a fold up or down plywood layout againts a wall. It may force you to go smaller but I think you will be happier in the long run, unless you can add heat and cooling to the attic.

stevin,
you, my friend, have a hellova dilemma.
your "expert" might not be that at all, so be careful on that count.
"love many. trust few. always paddle your own canoe."

my adage, don't leave any photographic or electronic equipment anywhere where your, yourself, would not want to be. e.g. car trunk, attic, shed, garage, crawl space, etc. you really should have some sort of climate control.

someone suggested a hideaway layout.
please e-mail me at mdattoma@optonline.net, and i'll send you an article.

because of no space for my own layout, i joined a club.

marc d

quote:

Originally posted by pennsydave:
I would consider other alternatives, unless you have someone who knows about insulating under your roof. As someone already mentioned you absolutely must leave a way for air to get under the roof by using those foam panels. Otherwise your roof will get moisture and it will rot.

Another point, with the temp extremes you will be experiencing; your rail will expand and contract visibly, possibly causing it to buckle in the summer and lose electrical contact in the winter.

If you can decide on almost any other solution it would be better. A pullout layout under a bed, a fold up or down plywood layout againts a wall. It may force you to go smaller but I think you will be happier in the long run, unless you can add heat and cooling to the attic.

I worked as a salesman in building materials for the past 7 years so I know the cocept behind insulating a roof. I already have some baffle insulation that is going up before the regular insulation. The whole reason why I want to utilze the attic is because I grew out of my last small layout and need a large space to construct my new large layout. It is a nice little space and I already put a floor down.

Well it seems you certainly are aware of the issues that you face and are committed to building in the attic. I say then, go for it. There will always be naysayers and I personally would not do an attic/garage layout here in central PA. Maybe you will come up with some great ideas and ways to solve the issues that will make great reading on the forum. Best of luck with your layout and let us know how it is going. Pictures would be great. I just love looking at the pictures provided by forum members. Even though I will never have a large layout I can enjoy others' vicariously.

Before building an attic layout here in northern NJ, I had the walls covered with wood planking and the ceiling sheetrocked. The attic already had a wood floor in place (it's an old house). I did not put in insulation. I also put in new thermal windows with screens and curtains. I always leave one of the windows slightly ajar, winter or summer. It does get very hot in the summer and very cold in the winter. Whenever I am ready to work up there in the summer I open the attic door and the windows, and run the whole house fan (located elsewhere in the house) for a few minutes, which is enough to make the conditions tolerable. In the winter, a few minutes with the attic door open allows enough warm air from the rest of the house to rise into the attic and make it comfortable.

I had a very large N scale layout up there for 15 years and the only operating problem I ever had was dust on the rails.

There is one bizarre thing that happened in my attic. Usually I leave the curtains closed when I'm not there, to keep the sun from causing even more heat through the windows. Occasionally I have left the curtains open for a week or more, and at the end of that time there appears a significant number of houseflies on the windowsills, seemingly out of nowhere. Shades of Stephen King. So keep those attic curtains closed when you're not there!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: West Side Joe,

Don't forget about NOT using florescent lighting. I know it is cheap but the UV
will definitely fade some paints. Stick with incandescent and make sure ALL your electrical is GFI protected. You are in an attic...roofs do leak from time to time.
Just a suggestion.

Real trains run in hostile environments. So why can't yours? I mean you can mitigate the extremes and you are doing that. Good. But also, you could adjust your goals and still have a lot of fun. So make access to wiring easier because you may be doing more frequent trouble shooting? And maybe use old style blocking instead of command systems with their delicate engineering? I open my bedroom window over my trains every night, because I like fresh air. The trains don't mind as they appreciate the weathering. But also, they appreciate that I frequently vacuum and clean the roadbed. Life is short! ~ Tom

quote:

Originally posted by West Side Joe:
... I have left the curtains open for a week or more, and at the end of that time there appears a significant number of houseflies on the windowsills, seemingly out of nowhere ...

Easily explained: the bogeyman lives in the attic when he's not in the basement or crawlspace, under the bed, or in the closet. The bogeyman, of course, eats maggots, and those he does not devour immediately become houseflies. He will enjoy playing with stevin's trains.

quote:

Originally posted by hobby-go-lucky: the bogeyman lives in the attic

Seriously, not a one of us in my house will go up into the attic at night without the light on. I think there is something seriously programmed into humans genetically to avoid pitch black dark spaces, no matter how familiar.

quote:

Originally posted by West Side Joe:

quote:

Originally posted by hobby-go-lucky: the bogeyman lives in the attic

Seriously, not a one of us in my house will go up into the attic at night without the light on. I think there is something seriously programmed into humans genetically to avoid pitch black dark spaces, no matter how familiar.

Yeah, you don't want to go into an attic without a floor in the dark. You could step between the rafters, and fall into the room below. Didn't Chevy Chase do this in the movie Christmas Vacation?

Interesting thread, any update Stevin? You running trains yet?

For over 6 years, I have had a always working 20' x 20' permanent layout in my attic ( Lancaster County, PA. )It is a high peaked attic 15' center with truss beams. I framed out a room space with 2 x 4's. Because I have a narrow and bent stairwell, I bought blue foam insulation sheets ( lightweight and easy to cut ,no plaster and sanding of sheetrock )to do my walls and then placed them above my ceiling truss beams. Used tape to seal corners creating an insulated box of sorts. Put an air conditioner in a high window..( lucky to be strategic placed ) In winter, it is mild up there and I am able to open the attic door if I need heat. In summer, even the hottest days outside are tempered by the attic insul boards. If I want to be real comfortable, I turn on my air..No issues with trains ( all command )..The only change I made was to use atlas track instead of my original tubular..I believe the insul boards ,though originally used because of the construction convenience , has turned into a godsend for the present pleasant environment. Michael

I also use my attic for trains. It is a walkup with a stairway, it's been sheetrocked , insulated and I had a hvac contractor put heat/air in it.
I live in New England with hot summersa & cold winters the attic works fine.

Seacoast:

Insulation and HVAC: sounds like GOOD planning.

If you have to use an attic space, do it right!

bottom line....

if YOU do not want to be left ANYWHERE, then don't leave your trains there! this goes with ANYTHING electronic or mechanical or anything alive. anything negative that comes of them is your own darned fault.

i you insist upon using your attic, then finish it as though you were going to live there all year long. no exceptions!! do your homework, and do it right the first time.
p.p.= p.p.p.

marc d

for those of you who do not understand "the 5 p's"... poor planning equals piss poor performance.

quote:

Originally posted by Seacoast:
I also use my attic for trains. It is a walkup with a stairway, it's been sheetrocked , insulated and I had a hvac contractor put heat/air in it.
I live in New England with hot summersa & cold winters the attic works fine.

Walkup attics seem to be fairly rare in newer houses, although in New England, they do seem to be making a comeback. I live a bit further inland, and have an as-yet unfinished walkup that will become the train room in the next couple of years. As it is now, it's tolerable most of the time unless the temperature drops around or below zero in winter, or goes above 80 in the summer and it's raining too much to open the windows in the ends. I expect once the sheetrock is in, the temperature should stay more even. It's already wired for electricity, so one fair-size window unit will take care of cooling, and the tubing to run between the attic and the boiler in the basement for the hot-water heating is already stubbed in -- so it's all set for a long-term DIY project. An awful lot of work for the train room, but it's a 35'X 15' or so space -- which is more than what's available in the basement, since about 2/3 of the basement space is the garage. Right now, it's fine for storing the trains while I run them on the Carpet Central in my office. I'd run them upstairs, too, but putting tubular track in the plywood subfloor is a bit too noisy...

I have about half of the benchwork up and some scenery done, track is laid and the wiring has begun. I have both systems... dcs, and tmcc up and running. So far the humidity hasn't caused any problems that I know of. I did have my kline mikado loose sound and another engines smoke unit fan started hesitating. I don't know if this is from humidity or just bad luck but it seams to be ok so far.