Hello All

I was wondering if it is possible (without damaging electronics) to run my TMCC controlled layout, with a portable generator. Will the Ground be an issue? I have been hesitant to try, and see what happens. Everything I have ( Lionel-K-Line) works so well… I’d hate to ruin it! This is my Generator…

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_1...0P?keyword=generator

I think you should be careful.
If the generator is putting out pure sine wave AC, and it is very constant, not subject to big variation, it might be OK.
But Why?
You might be safer with a battery supply through a pure sine wave inverter.

I agree, Power the bat with the genny, then convert to sine wave!

That generator should put put a clean sine wave, but only as long as the load is stable. That's the problem -- if you are using it as a backup power source, and something with a heavy starting load like a refrigerator kicks on, the generator's output will be momentarily dragged down causing a localized "brownout" then a surge as the load evens out and the engine catches up. The alternator's regulator does a pretty god job of clamping the surge, but it can't compensate well for the sag. The low-high voltage swing causes a corresponding current (amps) swing that can damage electronics, or at least wreak havoc with running TMCC, since the reference voltage won't stay stable. A battery and inverter will act as an extra "cushion" to keep the input to the TMCC system clean.

Now, on the other hand, if you just need to run power to a portable layout, you should do all right. If that's the case, then just use a computer or A/V system "power conditioner" (not a UPS backup) that provides surge protection and AC voltage smoothing to iron out the little ripples that are inherent in running off a small gasoline engine.

Extra hint -- if the generator engine ever has problems running smoothly even with fresh gasoline in the tank, put some fuel stabilizer in. The quality of gasoline sold today can be inconsistent, and the stabilizer does help.

-Eric

Generators, especially portable ones usually have two problems. Either over/under voltage and frequency. Both are keyed to the speed of the drive engine and variations in both are not good for electronics.

We had one customer who wanted to be able to operate his phone system during power outages. We hooked up his generator to a specific circuit dedicated to the phone system. The phone equipment was pluged into a slighly more sophisticated surge strip. The surge strip/power conditioner/battery backup system said "no" even though a simple voltage test showed about 125 volts. We could run lights and power equipment off the generator with no problems, but the line conditioner ahead of the phone equipment apparently saw a problem, most likely with the frequency.

I would be careful with any electronic equipment operated by a portable generator.

Mike CT

I remember reading on this forum that TMCC will not work when power is coming from a 2-prong plug (no ground). I've never used a portable generator, but how do you ground it? Should you ground it?

quote:

Posted October 30, 2009 08:47 AM Hide Post
Generators, especially portable ones usually have two problems. Either over/under voltage and frequency. Both are keyed to the speed of the drive engine and variations in both are not good for electronics.

Over/under frequency is directly dependent on the mechanical speed of the drive engine (which could increase/decrease momentarily a few seconds after a sudden change of power load until the governor readjusts the amount of fuel required).

Over/under voltage could occur instantaneously during a "short circuit" until a fuse blows or circuit breaker "trips" (which could be a fraction of a second) but the generator output voltage is usually well regulated electronically regardless of sudden changes in power load amperes or engine speed.

Another inherent problem with small generators is that they could produce non-sinusoidal wave shapes due to multiples of 60 hertz or higher frequency. harmonics

WHY would you want or need to run your layout with a generator? Is it outside, far from electric? Are you having a power outage? Failed to pay your electric bill, but can afford a generator and the gas to run it? Are living in a camper traveling around the US?

My experience with generator powered pro sound gear tells me to advise you DO NOT run your sensitive electronics from any generator without placing a bulletproof (very expensive) voltage regulator/power conditioner between it and your electronics.

Pete

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McNally:
I remember reading on this forum that TMCC will not work when power is coming from a 2-prong plug (no ground). I've never used a portable generator, but how do you ground it? Should you ground it?

Hardly anyone does it with portables, but the generator instructions do specify that an earth ground is required for safe operation - a connection to a grounded/driven rod or metal in-ground water lines.

Running the trains from a quality line-conditioning computer UPS plugged into the generator should be adequate in a pinch. The Command Base wall-wart AC adapter will work better if the entire system is associated with earth ground, but I have used it on a power strip(same strip as transformers) with good results in the past.

Honda makes a series of generators that are designed for household use that will operate electronic euipment safely. I use a 6500 watt generator as a stand by when we have power failures. I had the house wiring modified so I could use the generator safely.

I think you will be just fine powering your layout, including TMCC or DCS, with a transformer and through a 120VAC to 18VAC transformer.

I would be very surprised of a voltage sag affected operation. The 120V-18V layout transformer will provide some protection agansit any spikes on the 120VAC sytem whether powered from the utility or the generator.

Although it could be a serios safety issue, not grounding the generator will not effect the operation of your layout. If the primary side of the transformer sees 120VAC, whether grounded or not, approximately 18VAC (red to black) will be presnt on the secondary for your layout components.

Without grounding the generator correctly, the safety will be compromised from the primary of your layout transformer back to the panelboard and generator, not on the secondary side of your layout transformer. Your house system ground is not connected to the layout ground. The layout ground is floating relative to the system ground of your home. Your house ground should not be floating relative to earth potential. This is one of the reasons it is important to ground your power system, whether power is being provided by the utility or your own 120V/240V generator.

Paul

I thnk it depends on what brand of generator you buy. Not all are created equal. you would have to read the specs on each possible one to find out how clean the power is, and pick the best one. don't be ruled by the price tag, you could wind up with a bunch of dead trains.