I am finishing my layout and need to wire lights. I have always used Christmas lights and wired in parallel to postwar ZW and put about 20 lights per circuit per transformer post.

I now have about 350 lights to do and am looking for a better way. Any suggestions. I am willing to start from scratch if need be with lights and circuits.

Are there better ways of using building lights like 110 volt lights like Christmas buildings? Or maybe LED's? I am open to anything better than doing all these transformer posts. I have 8 ZW's and am running out of posts.

Any help appreciated but talk kindergarten to me. I have very little experience with this stuff. Thanks a bunch.

Don Hughes
817-483-7730

I would use LEDs,I would never run 110 volt lines under a layout,not safe IMO.

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-100X-S...7C293%3A1%7C294%3A30

I use these or a more powerful very bright 5 chip version. 2 to 4 will light an average structure. They are warm white with a 140 degree view angle 3.4 volts forward , 20 ma. The 5 chip ones are 100 ma. If using a lot of LED lighting,establish a fixed power supply say 12 volts. Now run this through a 10 amp or more bridge rectifier and an appropriate fuse,color coding the 2 wires. With the drop for the bridge you will have 10.8 volts pulsed DC.

They can then be run off the power source mentioned wired in proper polarity.

Using the 20ma ones, here are the calculations for the above power supply (10.8 volts DC).

For a single LED put a 390 ohm resistor in series

For a series of 2 (+ to -) put a 150 ohm resistor in series

For a series of 3 (+ to -) put a 33 ohm resistor in series

All resistors are quarter watt or more. Larger ohm values can be used to dim lights if desired.

If you have a different voltage supply or different LED you will have to recalculate.

A 10 amp 12 volt power supply (about a 120 watt transformer) should light at least 400 of the 20 ma LEDs described, more if they are wired in series of 2 or 3.

LEDs can be mounted on fish paper,the pins stuck through then wires soldered to them on the reverse side. The assembly can be glued to the roof of the structure with silicone. They shine down nicely.

Here is a link to the 5 chip 100ma LED,very bright

http://cgi.ebay.com/50PC-5mm-5...l1262#ht_4170wt_3173

Dale H

Let me echo Dale's excellent suggestion with those LEDs. That's what I would do if I were to start over. LEDs don't produce heat, and if you wire them in series like Dale described, they are super-efficient with electricity.

John

I must be missing something here. How can you run out of posts? If you haven't done so already, check out the wealth of devices under the names of terminal strips, terminal blocks, barrier strips, barrier blocks, etc. You can "daisy-chain" them. You will run out of power long before you run out of posts.

LED lamps are the way to go. They are improving every day. Not only do they run cool, they require much less power per lamp. You can get them in "self" contained units that fit virtually any toy train socket, and better colors than the early ones.

No 120 volt devices on/in my layout once you get past the transformer -- for safety reasons as mentioned earlier.

>

Wolverine49: I run out of posts since there are only 4 per ZW and I am putting 20 lights on each post. There are over 350 lights. I usually don't use but 2 of the 4 posts per transformer since I am also running trains with them. If I do put 20 lights per run and use all 4 posts, the ZW over heats in about 5 minutes.

I am using street lights with screw in bulbs and Lionel light towers with bulbs and accessories with bulbs. Should I replace all those with LED's and if so, do I use the rectifier and the formulas above with those too?

quote:

Originally posted by masco:
Wolverine49: I run out of posts since there are only 4 per ZW and I am putting 20 lights on each post. There are over 350 lights. I usually don't use but 2 of the 4 posts per transformer since I am also running trains with them. If I do put 20 lights per run and use all 4 posts, the ZW over heats in about 5 minutes.

Don

What counts is total watts pulled, not number of posts used. The PW ZW is good for about 180 watts continuous whether the power is pulled from 1 or all 4 terminals. It is a little easier on the rollers to divide the power though.

For structures I would use the LEDs. The conversion is somewhat easy and the LEDs linked will actually give better lighting results than bulbs and use less power. Properly circuited LEDs should not need replacement.

I have converted Marx light towers to LEDs but it takes a bit of doing. These would use different actually more directional LEDs and use about 1/4th the power. PW street lamps such as the #56 have shaped bulbs which would not convert well or look right IMO. These I would just get a transformer and burn the power. Street lamps with covers could be converted.

On my layout I use 3 Hampton Bay 12 volt 600 watt outdoor lighting transformers. From these I run 12, 10 amp circuits for my lighting. These are plugged into a 20 amp dedicated wall outlet. As bulbs burn out I will eventually convert buildings to LED lighting. When I did my layout these LEDs mentioned were not available. You can do individual buildings with a small bridge rectifier and proper resistors in each one. If I had it over to do I would have made DC buss circuits as I described.

How you do things depends on your layout,what you are using for power and what you are lighting. Most LEDs are hard wired but screw in type replacements are available. They are a bit pricey.

Dale H

Thanks Dale. I have learned so much from you already. I have another question. Does it hurt the ZW transformer to have the light circuits wired in and the voltages already set on the variable voltage dial and then just plug in the transformer so that all 4 circuits come on at once?

Also, in your Hampton Bay 12 volt scenario, what wiring is there to do before connecting my bus with the 20 lights on it? Do I need the rectifier if I am not using the LED's. I just can't afford to buy all the LED's and rectifiers and solder all that up for 350 lights. I want to at least get my layout lit and then I can convert over time like you have done. Does that sound reasonable or should I rethink. I have the lights now in place that are the old Christmas lights that were in series around the Christmas tree but I cut them so that the two wires hang under the buildings and I connect 20 of them in parallel to the ZW.

quote:

Originally posted by masco:
Thanks Dale. I have learned so much from you already. I have another question. Does it hurt the ZW transformer to have the light circuits wired in and the voltages already set on the variable voltage dial and then just plug in the transformer so that all 4 circuits come on at once?

Also, in your Hampton Bay 12 volt scenario, what wiring is there to do before connecting my bus with the 20 lights on it? Do I need the rectifier if I am not using the LED's. I just can't afford to buy all the LED's and rectifiers and solder all that up for 350 lights. I want to at least get my layout lit and then I can convert over time like you have done. Does that sound reasonable or should I rethink. I have the lights now in place that are the old Christmas lights that were in series around the Christmas tree but I cut them so that the two wires hang under the buildings and I connect 20 of them in parallel to the ZW.

Don

Your first question you will get different answers but I would say no. Keep in mind,as your transformer heats up it will lose efficiency. Overloading it may not result in the breaker tripping or lights dimming for a while. Proper buss sizes to the lights is very important.

If not using LEDs,you do not need a rectifier. The LEDs need DC to protect them from reverse voltage even thought they will light up on AC. This can be accomplished with one larger bridge on the buss or individual small ones.

The Hampton Bay is 600 watt. In reality it is 2 separate 300 watt transformers in one package and has 2 pair of output leads. On each 300 watt output I split it into 2 busses and fuse them at 10 amps. This limits each feed to 120 watts and the transformer itself to 80% of its designed load (480 watts total). The transformer has a very good breaker also and usually trips before the fuse blows due to a short circuit. I recommend the multiple busses also because tracing a short is easier. Buss size should be at least 16 gauge, 14 or 12 if making long runs.

To simplify wiring you can make a common buss for all the taps. 12 gauge Romex house wiring for example can be used and connections made convenient with barrier strips made out of buss bar extensions for electrical service panels sold at home centers. They have screw connections 12-2 Romex has 3, 12 gauge solid wires. This would give a buss with 60 amps capacity and little resistance,especially if looped in a circle around the layout perimeter. The 600 watt transformer would require a 50 amp buss capacity. More transformers would require heavier wire. 10-3 or 2, 12-2 Romex would work for 2 transformers for example etc.

The Christmas lights are power hogs. I would slowly convert the structures as I described but you do not have to if you have adequate transformers.. Off the 12 VAC install a 1 amp bridge then your LEDs and resistors in each structure.

Assuming the bulbs are about 2.5 watts each,a buss of 20 would pull about 50 watts. So the buss I described on the 10 amp fuse should handle 2 such busses of 20 bulbs. Since you already have the busses wired this may be the easiest way. Try to run your wiring organized and labeled if there is a problem and you have to trace things out. As mentioned by others,you can make connections with barrier strips,everything does not have to go back to the transformer terminals. 350 bulbs could pull perhaps 600-900 watts. So you may need 2, 600 watt transformers to be comfortable but I would start with one and wire the busses and see what happens. 300 watt transformers are also available, whatever you can get that is the cheapest.. Make sure your wire is adequately sized to carry the load.



Dale H

Don,
I echo Dales remarks about not running 110 Volt under your layout!
LEDs are the way to go, especially with the numbers that you are talking about.

Dale has provided good information.

There is an excellent source of LEDs that is provided by Evan Designs, the same folks that provide Model Builder Software and support this forum with advertising. Evan provides LEDs that are prewired so that you don't have to get into adding resistors, etc. You can find them here They also have an excellent resource on line to answer your questions about LEDs. I just used their LEDs to light up an MPC relic and I am very happy with the ease of wiring and performance of the product.

Don, let me try to clarify what I said about replacing incandescent bulbs with LED's. Lionel has used quite a few different bulbs over the years, but not nearly as many different base sizes and styles. So a lot of LED's can be had that will fit the bases, with more coming every day. A major limitation is where the bulb has a particular shape and design, such as some of the bulbs that fit streetlights and items like that. In some cases the shape and finish of the bulb are unique for a particular accessory; for example tear-drop shaped bulbs with a frosted finish. In these cases I don't know of any LED's currently on the market that will look right because the architectural design (shape) is all wrong.

If I were starting to build or renovate a layout, I'd go with LED's when ever I could. For the most part this would be in situations such as illuminating the interiors of buildings where the shape of the LED was not critical.

It definitely sounds to me as if you are overloading your transformers big time, not in any physical sense, but in an electrical-overload sense. These devices cannot supply infinite amounts of power. Even a vaunted "275 watt" post-war Lionel Type ZW can only supply about 195 watts continuously when cold, and even less as it warms up.

Check out some web sites for the terminal blocks, etc., that I mentioned. Look for accessories for them. In the right configuration, you can have all the terminal posts that you could possibly use --indeed, far more than a ZW can power. By swapping out incandescents in favor of LED's, you can probably connect four times as many lamps as you can with incandescents of similar light output.

Some of the solutions proposed by other members are interesting as well as tried and proven -- 120 volt wiring in the layout proper is generally considered a no-no.

Edited to supply a missing "not" that was critical to the meaning.

>

This message has been edited. Last edited by: wolverine49,

I have a link on my web page named Power Supplies which briefly explains how I get it done.

http://204.156.4.209/memberpages2/frame.asp?sid=1419

I use a small 25 amp and are larger 45 amp

DC power supplies are also avaliable from camper/motor home supply stores. Some are quit large in capacity other are small. You just have to shop around.

If Dale H's how to is "written in kindergarten" then I would like to see a technical description. Can someone refer us to a how to for dummies? I don't even know what a bridge rectifier is or does. Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by wb47:
If Dale H's how to is "written in kindergarten" then I would like to see a technical description. Can someone refer us to a how to for dummies? I don't even know what a bridge rectifier is or does. Thanks

You can avoid all that by using the prewired diodes from Evan Designs. Refer to my post a few after Dale's.

Thanks Bob, I will give it a try.

quote:

Originally posted by Dale H:
I would use LEDs,I would never run 110 volt lines under a layout,not safe IMO.

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-100X-S...7C293%3A1%7C294%3A30

I use these or a more powerful very bright 5 chip version. 2 to 4 will light an average structure. They are warm white with a 140 degree view angle 3.4 volts forward , 20 ma. The 5 chip ones are 100 ma. If using a lot of LED lighting,establish a fixed power supply say 12 volts. Now run this through a 10 amp or more bridge rectifier and an appropriate fuse,color coding the 2 wires. With the drop for the bridge you will have 10.8 volts pulsed DC.

They can then be run off the power source mentioned wired in proper polarity.

Using the 20ma ones, here are the calculations for the above power supply (10.8 volts DC).

For a single LED put a 390 ohm resistor in series

For a series of 2 (+ to -) put a 150 ohm resistor in series

For a series of 3 (+ to -) put a 33 ohm resistor in series

All resistors are quarter watt or more. Larger ohm values can be used to dim lights if desired.

If you have a different voltage supply or different LED you will have to recalculate.

A 10 amp 12 volt power supply (about a 120 watt transformer) should light at least 400 of the 20 ma LEDs described, more if they are wired in series of 2 or 3.

LEDs can be mounted on fish paper,the pins stuck through then wires soldered to them on the reverse side. The assembly can be glued to the roof of the structure with silicone. They shine down nicely.

Here is a link to the 5 chip 100ma LED,very bright

http://cgi.ebay.com/50PC-5mm-5...l1262#ht_4170wt_3173

Dale H

_____________________________________________________________________________________________-


Hi Dale, I like your idea and I plan on scrapping my 110-VAC idea due to the safty reasons qouted above, that makes sense. But, when I followed your hyper link to the LED supplier on e-bay I saw a price of $35.50 for one lamp. Am I missing something, or is there a logical reason for this high cost? At that price the out-go for lighting my layout's buildings would be about one Legacy steam engine.
In the meantime I will go back and read your 1st post again to Look for where I went wrong.

quote:

If Dale H's how to is "written in kindergarten" then I would like to see a technical description. Can someone refer us to a how to for dummies? I don't even know what a bridge rectifier is or does.

I have to agree as this goes right over my head. I looked up bridge rectifier and that leads you to another term which leads to another and on and on and soon you forget what you were originally trying to understand.
My only hope is I can let my brother who is a commercial electrician read some of this and he will translate for me in "dummy" terms.
Dale, we always appreciate your help. Is there a way you could post some photos of your electrical set up to help simplify for us pions?

Mario,
That is for 100 LED's (100x)

quote:

Originally posted by gregj410:
Mario,
That is for 100 LED's (100x)

Thanks Greg, I guess I need a cup of coffee.

I would like to add that Dale H post makes perfect sense and is well worth learning what he talking about. But, to those who are looking for a laymens way out then I would go with Evens Design.

Let me try and give a very basic definition of what Dale is talking about.

Rectifier- a 4- diode device that converts AC voltage to DC ripple voltage. Look at the AC voltage signal as an S symbol placed on it's side with a striate line running left to right that signifies 0 volts. The S symbol has that line cutting between the two peaks of the S. The hump of the S that dips below the line is negative and the hump of the S that goes above the line is positive. When this AC voltage signal, that changes state sixty times a second is feed into the rectifer it comes out as a ripple voltage riding above the line. Picture a series of up side down U's ridding the positive side of that zerro volt line.

Filter- a capaitor and resister cercuit placed on the DC ripple output of the rectifier to smooth out your DC. For those with interest look up RC time constant.
Dale did not go into this because it probably dose not effect LED's but is very critical on data and sound reproduction.

Resister network- droping resisters placed in the DC line between the rectifier output and the LED's so as not to over drive them and shorten their life. Most LED's work best at around 2 vots DC. But there are many desined for higher votages, that is why Dale said that we would have to recalculate if we chose to use other products then what he described.

No insult intended, but if my very basic description is still over your heads then go to Evens Designs ASAP.

I hope I was of some help.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: gg1man,

Sorry to loose some of you guys,it is not my attention. I am a bit illiterate to post pictures. About a year ago I had a couple pictorials on passenger car LED lighting,but they have expired and were deleted. My daughter did the pictures. Here is a link to bridge rectifiers.

http://www.radioshack.com/sear...dge%20rectifier&sr=1

Notice they all have 4 leads. The AC from the transformer goes to the 2 leads marked ~. Out to the circuit goes + and - ,this is DC current. so a rectifier converts AC current to DC. LEDs need DC current to operate without being damaged.

Here is a link to resistors and what they look like.

http://www.radioshack.com/prod...sp?productId=2062304

Resistors simply resist flow of electrical current when wired in series to a load. The value measure in ohms and wattage used depends upon the needs of the circuit. In our case the load will be LEDs. They are necessary to limit current flow to the LED so it will not burn out.

LEDs are special diodes. When current flows through them they emit light. The color depends upon how the LED is made Normally they are low voltage and low current. The first ones cited drop 3.4 volts and use 20 ma or .02 amps of current.

So if we have a transformer putting out 12 volts AC and we want to light a single LED diode, to light it we need to protect it with a rectifier and resistor. The rectifier has been discussed. Using Ohms law the resistor value can be calculated. In this case lets ignore the voltage drop from the bridge to simplify. 12 volts - 3.4 volts divided by .02 amps equals 430 ohms. Resistors have standard values so we select one the next highest value. They make a 430 ohm one but if they did not we would go to a 470 ohm one.

Now if we wire 2 LEDs in series 12 volts - 6.8 volts divided by .02 amps equals 260 ohms so a 270 ohm resistor can be used. The heat from the resistor wastes power so the lower the value the more efficient the circuit. In our example lighting 2 LEDs uses the same wattage as one. 12 volts times .02 amps = .25 watts. 2, 12 volt light bulbs may use 5 or 6 watts so we are saving around 90% of the power. Besides saving power LEDs will probably outlast you and me.

Alright you hate calculations and probably hate me by now,however here are 2 links that will draw the circuit for you and do the calculations for those who are still reading..

http://ledcalculator.net/

http://led.linear1.org/led.wiz

Just fill in the values of your LEDs and they will tell you what to use. Keep in mind the circuit assumes DC current and the bridge is not drawn in.

Now lets say we have a building using 3 light bulbs and we want to change it to LED lighting.

Remove the bulbs,then hook in a small bridge to the AC. Run the + and - to the LEDs. The LEDs have 4 pins for leads 2 + and 2-. Polarity is marked with a notch on one side of the square the minus. Stick the pins through a strip of thin cardboard or better electrical fish paper where you want the LEDs to be located and mark polarity. Solder the 3 LEDs in series to the + and - of the bridge and in series with a 91 ohm or more resistor. 22 gauge wire is fine keep solder time and heat to a minimum. If you wire the LEDs in the wrong direction they will not light,simply reverse the wires. Test the assembly and then glue it to the roof of the structure.

It is harder for me to explain this than actually do it. After you do a few it is easy. The prewired ones I have not used. However if you took it apart most likely you will find a very small bridge rectifier and a small resistor. The downside of these is the expense. Also LEDs wired in series as I described before use even less power than those wired individually. There are a lot of ways to do something,do it the way which suits your needs. Using a large bridge and a DC circuit dedicated for LEDs leaves out the need for individual small bridge rectifiers in each building,only the proper resistor would be needed.. So if wiring from scratch I would do it this way. Either way it is not that difficult. I can do it and believe me I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I spent most of my time in school studying my science teachers cleavage.

For those wishing to learn basic electronic principles, I would recommend the Forrest Mimms book,Getting Started with Electronics. Radio Shack used to have it but they carry less and less. Amazon.com has it I think. You only need to read about 20 pages of it to understand basic principles.

Just an addendum to Marios post. You can put a capacitor across the + and - of the bridge. This is OK but it will boost voltage by 41%. 12 VAC will become about 17 volts filtered DC. Make calculations for resistors accordingly and use 17 volts as the input instead of 12 volts.

Dale H

Dale,
Thanks for the info. I just ordered the Forrest Mimms book. Up until I started model RR'ing I had zero and I mean zero interest in electronics\electricity. I cringe at the thought of trying to understand it. Fortunately my brother and a close friend are electricians, so I've scathed by having them at arms length when I need help. I run into people everyday talking electrical stuff to me as if I understand it.........ground this and single pole that, 12-2 wire,continuity, resistance, ohms and the list goes on. It drives me crazy; however, the funny thing is since I started back into trains I actually have a genuine interest and a little more desire to learn about electricity. I appreciate your help and the help of others here who slow it down for guys like me.

Go to Home Depot or Lowes and get a 12v transformer for those malibu lights. I got a 600watt one for $109. It stays nice and cool with over a hundred #53 light bulbs burning.

Thanks Dale so much for the education. I too am now more interested in learning the electronics than before. Your explanation is very straight forward.

zwbob, what kind of light bulbs are those and how do you wire them?

Thanks to everyone else for helping us electronically challenged to understand how some of this works.

Don

I think it is good practice to NOT use the same power supply for accessories that you use to power your trains. So the lights do not dim or blink when throwing a switch (turnout), I use a separate power supply for those also. All wiring is of different size and has a different color insulation for lighting and for switch activation from that used for track power. That keeps these three different functions completely isolated from one another, at least until you get to the receptacle, and makes a problem such as a ground much easier to locate. I still use bulbs for my buildings, mainly due to their yellow hue, and I run 12 volt bulbs at about 10 volts, which extends their life by a factor of up to 10 compared with running at the bulb's rated voltage. You use more wire, and you must have a few more power supplies, but I think this is worthwhile.

zwbob---what kind of bulb #53 are you referring to and where do you get them along with the transformer. I am interested in your approach.

quote:

Originally posted by masco:
zwbob---what kind of bulb #53 are you referring to and where do you get them along with the transformer. I am interested in your approach.

They are 12volt bayonet base bulbs. The ones that williams uses in thier diesels. You can find them at any autoparts store or Radio Shack. Radio shack sells sockets to put them in. You can also just soldier the wires to the base of the bulb. I have mine wired in parallel.

Alot of good ideas here. I don't know about everyone else but I have all my lighting circuits fused with 5 amp fast-blow fuses. It may not be necessary but gives me a more secure feeling. I'd rather replace fuses than have a fire somewhere.

What an excellent thread. Thank you to all who posted. It is a great source of information about modern lighting techniques.

Thanks again.

Ed Boyle

zwbob: I went to Radio Shack and got the #53 bulb and the sockets to try out. Since they are 12V and I got the Home Depot 300 watt transformer, how many can I put in parallel like you do? How do you figure that out formula wise?

Thanks again for all your help, guys. I really learned a lot.

quote:

Originally posted by masco:
zwbob: I went to Radio Shack and got the #53 bulb and the sockets to try out. Since they are 12V and I got the Home Depot 300 watt transformer, how many can I put in parallel like you do? How do you figure that out formula wise?

Thanks again for all your help, guys. I really learned a lot.

I think the #53 bulb is 1.5watts so you can hook up close to 200 bulbs. The transformer I have has two 300w circuits. I have 50+ bulbs on each circuit and the transformer stays cool. Here's a link to a website for ohms law http://www.megavolt.co.il/articles/OhmLaw.html

This is an interesting thread. I want to figure this stuff out. But I've read this an re-read it, and this electrical stuff just bewilders me...

Would there be Model Railroading "How-To" books, with wiring diagrams that anybody could recommend? I've been searching Google trying to find electrical schematics and am coming up empty.

Or do I just buy some small bulbs at Radio Shack and hope they will tell me what to do?

^ Okay, so I have been mulling over all this "how-to" stuff...

I had several basic 110V light strings, supplying the lighting in the buildings for my Polar Express Christmas display. I hate 'em, for several reasons. I want to install "proper" lights in the buildings.

From this thread;

1) I gather that LED's are the way to go. I guess the correct way to go is to wire this up in parallel?

2) Each building gets a separate rectifier, resistors etc?

3) I can supply the main current to the circuit with 16g wire?

4) Does the power output from my CW-80 transformer accessory circuit matter? Is that accessory current constant? Do I need to meter that current/amperage to determine what I require?

5) If I bought any other basic accessories, like a crossing signal, would that power requirement affect the lighting circuit(s) in any way?

zwbob...Thanks for the idea of the Malibu transformers. I have two of them I was getting ready to trash as a result of re-landscaping.

Doug

quote:

Originally posted by Demo:
^ Okay, so I have been mulling over all this "how-to" stuff...

I had several basic 110V light strings, supplying the lighting in the buildings for my Polar Express Christmas display. I hate 'em, for several reasons. I want to install "proper" lights in the buildings.

From this thread;

1) I gather that LED's are the way to go. I guess the correct way to go is to wire this up in parallel?

2) Each building gets a separate rectifier, resistors etc?

3) I can supply the main current to the circuit with 16g wire?

4) Does the power output from my CW-80 transformer accessory circuit matter? Is that accessory current constant? Do I need to meter that current/amperage to determine what I require?

5) If I bought any other basic accessories, like a crossing signal, would that power requirement affect the lighting circuit(s) in any way?

1) The LEDs can be wired in series with 1 resistor,that would use less power or each LED could be wired with a resistor. The links in earlier posts will draw the circuit for you.

2) Each building would use a resistor and a bridge if the feed is AC. However if you made a DC bus (easy to do) with one large bridge rectifier then all you would need is a resistor for each building. 1 if the LEDs are in series, 1 for each LED if they are wired in parallel.

3) Bus size is determined by current draw and how long the wire run is. On most any toy train transformer the maximum breaker size is 10 amps or less. 16 gauge is adequate unless the layout is very large.

4) If just running LEDs off the circuit,they use very little current. If too much current is pulled the breaker will trip. I am not familiar with that transformer as I do not have it. If you size an LED circuit,do not exceed the set input voltage as you will burn out all the LEDs. Resistor size is a function of input voltage. So if you size it for 12 and put in 18 by accident you will have a bunch of burned out LEDs.

5) Crossing signals and light bulbs are fine,they will run off DC (if you make a DC bus) but use considerably more power than LEDs. I would not put accessories with solenoids such as an old style crossing gate, gateman or vibrator type etc. These would generate large voltage spikes which could harm LEDs. If you do install a TVS across the terminals to that accessory to eliminate the spike to the bus. On a DC bus a diode across the coil will work. Vibrator accessories do not work as well on DC unless it is half waved with a single diode.

Dale H

For structure lighting, I'll go against the opinions here and stay with small bulbs. They do use far more power than LED's BUT you can adjust the light intensity by varying the voltage and if you run a lamp 1 V below its rated voltage it will last for years and years. LED's will last longer but IMO do not provide the omnidirectional "soft glow" that a bulb can give inside of a structure. LED's are unidirectional and provide little light to the sides.
As such LED's are great for spotlights, train signals, switch panels and locomotive front lights but for interior structure lighting I prefer the venerable bulb.
As for a power source, I am using a separate 90 W transformer to power the bulb lighting and an AC/DC converter to handle the LED and EL (signs) requirements.

Much of what I light is Lionel prewar so I don't change the bulb type. What worked well for me is that I TAG/MARK the wires at both ends so I know what I am looking at exactly. I did not do a buss wiring type setup because I change buildings from time to time to keep the layout a bit more interesting. Having all wires marked makes changing a accessory building easy. And if I have to swap to a transformer with higher output it just takes a second or two.

I group same "bulb type" buildings at the transformer end together. That way when adjusting the transformer output all the buildings are even brightness regardless of where on the layout they are.

Operating buildings have separate wires and are each marked and also grouped together at the transformer end. In this way I can control the output for operating accessories separately. Plenty for operation without affecting the lighting of the building in most cases.

For my 28' X 27' layout I use the 35 watt Lionel accessory transformers. They have a voltage control knob and excellent overload protection. All for around $35 bucks. Right now I am up to 5 acc'y transformers in use.

quote:

Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
For structure lighting, I'll go against the opinions here and stay with small bulbs. They do use far more power than LED's BUT you can adjust the light intensity by varying the voltage and if you run a lamp 1 V below its rated voltage it will last for years and years. LED's will last longer but IMO do not provide the omnidirectional "soft glow" that a bulb can give inside of a structure. LED's are unidirectional and provide little light to the sides.
As such LED's are great for spotlights, train signals, switch panels and locomotive front lights but for interior structure lighting I prefer the venerable bulb.
As for a power source, I am using a separate 90 W transformer to power the bulb lighting and an AC/DC converter to handle the LED and EL (signs) requirements.

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-100X-S...7C293%3A1%7C294%3A30

These are not unidirectional. They have a 140 degree view angle. Mounted on the roof of a building or passenger car they shine down at a wide angle similar to a light fixture with a reflector. The convex shape accomplishes this with optics. The spread is actually better than a light bulb as a reflector is not needed. The warm white is similar to a light bulb but not exactly. Color is subjective. LEDs can also be dimmed by increasing resistor size or even adding a pot into the circuit or dropping input line voltage or adding diodes in series to it. As long as LEDs are properly wired they should not ever need replacement.

Dale H

quote:

Originally posted by Dale H:

quote:

Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
For structure lighting, I'll go against the opinions here and stay with small bulbs. They do use far more power than LED's BUT you can adjust the light intensity by varying the voltage and if you run a lamp 1 V below its rated voltage it will last for years and years. LED's will last longer but IMO do not provide the omnidirectional "soft glow" that a bulb can give inside of a structure. LED's are unidirectional and provide little light to the sides.
As such LED's are great for spotlights, train signals, switch panels and locomotive front lights but for interior structure lighting I prefer the venerable bulb.
As for a power source, I am using a separate 90 W transformer to power the bulb lighting and an AC/DC converter to handle the LED and EL (signs) requirements.

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-100X-S...7C293%3A1%7C294%3A30

These are not unidirectional. They have a 140 degree view angle. Mounted on the roof of a building or passenger car they shine down at a wide angle similar to a light fixture with a reflector. The convex shape accomplishes this with optics. The spread is actually better than a light bulb as a reflector is not needed. The warm white is similar to a light bulb but not exactly. Color is subjective. LEDs can also be dimmed by increasing resistor size or even adding a pot into the circuit or dropping input line voltage or adding diodes in series to it. As long as LEDs are properly wired they should not ever need replacement.

Dale H

Perhaps technology has changed but my experience with LEDs proves that that the viewing angle is still a problem. Even if it is 140* that is still only about 50% of what a bulb can provide. Also within that viewing angle the light is more intense and focused towards the center and it tends to fade at the ends.
Look at an LED flashlight and you'll see what I mean. In a structure lighting environment I still prefer bulbs but I guess multiple LEDS can be used for the same effect. You are correct that LED's can be dimmed (by adding series resistance) to a point (until they go off entirely) and they do last nearly forever.

Dennis

That is kind of my point. A light bulb is almost 360 degrees. Unless you put on a roof reflector half of the light is wasted. More powerful 5 chip LEDs are now available that put out more light than a comparable bulb with much less power. The 5 chip ones are too intense for passenger cars but not buildings. If you look at a ceiling fixture in a real building the light shines down similar to the LED pattern. The LED size is about 1/4 inch square which would scale to a 1 foot square fixture. Mounted on the ceiling the focal point of the LED is not viewable. It is only viewable if you look straight into it. Painting the floor an off white with Krylon ivory for example will give off a yellow type glow similar to incandescent light. If you view the floor you will not see the focal point of the LED. See spread in picture on the link. Multiple LEDs in a building would be very efficient and spread light more evenly than 1 or 2 bulbs.

Dale H

masco,
This thread creates more conflict than any I've seen.IMHO These arguements could go on until the end of time.IMHO For sake of no more conflict. Go to townandcountryhobbies . com. Order as many of the LED bulbs as you need. Sure it will cost a little more now, THAT'S ALL. I have over 230 of these bulb type LEDs on my layout. They have been is use for 5years. Not one has failed and it will be another 5-10 years before any fail. They should keep on burning for the rest of my lifetime.IMHO They are rated at 18v. I run them at 14v. I do this with TWO postwar KWs. Before the change I was using two KWs, two TWs and one 1033. I'm in the process of converting ALL of my passenger cars to 3v LEDs. As my passenger fleet grows I will convert my purchases to LEDs. It is in my opinion Sir that you are making a simple task difficult. Lastly I might add this. The vendor above even has the same LEDs in warm white. Make the change to LEDs. You will never regret doing so. All of my friends now see the advantages and are making the switch. All of the forementioned is based upon my experience and is in my opinion.

Dale, my brother designs electronic equipment so I sent him an email asking about the stuff you had explained. This was his response.

What do you think about the idea of buying one large(?) rectifier and installing that at the circuit, as he suggests?
How would you be able to supply power to that rectifier from the transformer accessory terminals?



Okay Jim, I know all this stuff is new but it’s pretty basic for electrical. I answered your questions already but let’s go through it again ....



Demo: So you mean I buy this AC-DC converter, then supply power to all the LEDs from it?
Ans: Yes. Cut the connector off and you now have 2 bare wires – 1 positive and 1 negative. Buy some hook-up wire (I suggest 2 rolls, black for negative and red for positive) and electrical tape; you can just twist your connections together and tape them – this is very low voltage, very low current – no fire risk here.



Demo: How do I determine what rectifier I require?
Ans: You don’t need a rectifier because you bought an AC-DC convertor/supply – which is a rectifier.



Demo: So I have a power supply to the positive side of the LED... wouldn't that be marked/labelled... and then connect the resistor on the negative(?) side? Is there a positive/negative on LEDs?
Ans: Most LEDs are round, adjacent to one lead is a flat spot – the flat spot is Negative.



Demo: How do I determine what size resistor I need?
Ans: R = E / I, or Resistance (R) equals Voltage (E) divided by current (I). So for a 12V system supplying 20 mA per LED, then R=E/I = 12V/.02Amps = 600 Ohms. For each LED, you will need one 600 Ohm resistor. Your circuit, if drawn on paper will look like a railroad track or a ladder on its side – a straight horizontal line on top for positive and a straight horizontal line on bottom for negative, connected in between with 1 LED/Resistor combination vertically for each load – these are the ladder rungs.



Demo: For that matter... what the hell size LED bulbs do I need to light up small model buildings!?
Ans: This you will have to be determine by trial and error. First you have to find WHITE LEDs and then wire them up – see if you like them. I suggest you buy 1-2 and try them. You may be able to get the guy at The Source(Radio Shack) to test them for you?



Good Luck – wish I was there to help you.

Jeff

Does anyone know if a dimmer switch can be hooked up to the Malibu transformers? It was not obvious to me when I looked at the boxes at Home Depot so I didn't end up buying the transformers.

quote:

Originally posted by ekaz:
Does anyone know if a dimmer switch can be hooked up to the Malibu transformers? It was not obvious to me when I looked at the boxes at Home Depot so I didn't end up buying the transformers.

This is a solid state supply. Do not put on a dimmer circuit on the input where it plugs in. Dim the 12 volt side with diodes or whatever.

Dale H

Demo

If you have a DC power supply you do not need a rectifier. Most Ogauge transformers put out AC current. My post dealt with powering LEDs from an AC transformer.

The LEDs I cited have 4 leads this is because the casing can also be used for LEDs with 3 colors coming off 1 chip. For the single color the leads are redundant..

Dale H

Dale,
I read your original thread on lighting passenger cars. I printed it out and have it here somewhere... I tried the LED lights with a KLine passenger car with mixed results. Yes, they did work, but no, they were not bright enough. I used 5 LEDS wired in parallel from a 120v AC Christmas light string, a small Bridge rectifier, and a resistor.(I forget the rating.) My layout typically runs in command control mode, so I have 18vac to the tracks all the time.

Questions:
What can I do to get more output (and not fry the LEDs)?

You mentioned "Fish paper" way early in this thread. What is it, and where can one buy it? I want to mount the LEDs to the roof of the next car I do.

Chris
LVHR

quote:

Originally posted by lehighline:
Dale,
I read your original thread on lighting passenger cars. I printed it out and have it here somewhere... I tried the LED lights with a KLine passenger car with mixed results. Yes, they did work, but no, they were not bright enough. I used 5 LEDS wired in parallel from a 120v AC Christmas light string, a small Bridge rectifier, and a resistor.(I forget the rating.) My layout typically runs in command control mode, so I have 18vac to the tracks all the time.

Questions:
What can I do to get more output (and not fry the LEDs)?

You mentioned "Fish paper" way early in this thread. What is it, and where can one buy it? I want to mount the LEDs to the roof of the next car I do.

Chris
LVHR

Hi Chris

Christmas tree type LEDs are not adequate. They are too directional and not bright enough. Hard to calculate resistor size without specs. I would assume they are 3 volt 20 ma so about an 810 ohm resistor is the lowest you could go if they are wired in parallel and the feed is 18 volts.

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-100X-S...A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3

I use these they cost less than 40 cents each. They have a wide view angle and are plenty bright. If you look in their Ebay store they also have a brighter 5 chip version than pull 100ma,too bright IMO for passenger cars.

If you always run command then all you need is a small bridge rectifier,optional capacitor,resistor and the LEDs. The linked LEDs can be wired in series of 6 with 1, 270 ohm quarter watt resistor (also in series). You could put a 470uf 35 volt capacitor across the bridge in proper polarity. That will reduce flicker and boost the rectified 18VAC to around 24 volts DC. This way it should be plenty bright. However if you want super bright you could use the 5 chip ones with a different resistor. According to what Scott Mann said in another post the capacitor may mess up a DCS signal so you may have to put in a choke or leave the capacitor out. I only run conventional.

I got fish paper from Mcmaster Carr perhaps others have sources the part # is 8490 k-ll. Cutting this into strips makes mounting the above LEDs easy and even a 7805 regulating circuit can be put in without a PC board. Cost is around $3 per sheet. Shipping is expensive so order what you can use. Other may suggest other sources.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#8490k11/=4cfoax

Dale H

Dale,
I knew about the directionality of the Christmas LEDs, and got creative. The string I bought was the dome type. I ground the dome flat, then used a reamer in a drill to make a conical indentation in the lens. BION, it works! The only thing is not to make the indentation too deep. If you do, you kill the LED. (Gee, how did I learn that???)

What are the characteristics of the fish paper that you recommend using it? Any ideas on something cheap that might be substituted for it? I hate paying shipping costs that exceed the price of the item!

Chris
LVHR

I checked out the local Radio Shack and the "expert" there I think knows less about this than I do! Sheesh!! And their inventory is terrible!!

They do have a lot of the little lights, and a variety of sizes, that screw into tiny sockets and due to availability of those, plus they are dirt cheap, I think I am going to buy enough to light up my PE christmas display. When I can get to Edmonton sometime, I will seek out a better stocked electronics store and find a more knowledgeable technician.

quote:

Originally posted by lehighline:
Dale,
I knew about the directionality of the Christmas LEDs, and got creative. The string I bought was the dome type. I ground the dome flat, then used a reamer in a drill to make a conical indentation in the lens. BION, it works! The only thing is not to make the indentation too deep. If you do, you kill the LED. (Gee, how did I learn that???)

What are the characteristics of the fish paper that you recommend using it? Any ideas on something cheap that might be substituted for it? I hate paying shipping costs that exceed the price of the item!

Chris
LVHR

Chris

Never tried it but you might get away with thin cardboard or craft paper. I would not do it if you use a voltage regulator as that could get hot.

Shipping is something we have to live with. I have bought $2 Lionel parts that cost $10 to ship. Could not even buy multiple items because they were allocated.

Dale H