Working on a Postwar 600 switcher.

The rivet that holds the lever in place on the E unit is way too loose.
How does one tighten this rivet?

It would be easier to get at the back side of the rivet if I could get the "shield" around the coil off, and then move the coil out of the way.

How do you disasemble this E unit?

Thanks in advance.
Dave

Dave,

Don't remove the metal that surrounds the coil. I tighten the rivet by wedging a flat screwdriver between the coil and back side of the rivet to serve as an anvil, then I use a ball peen hammer to flare the rivet a bit more. Rest the E unit on a hard surface after you get the screwdriver in place. Don't kill it, just go easy until you have it where you want it.

Thanks Jim

I thought about that but was concerned about cutting a coil wire.
On the e-unit in question there was no tape around the coil.
I will use your suggestion next time.

I say this because I got a little eager, filed down the "tabs" and took the metal case from around the coil off.
Not a good idea. Placed an order tonight with Jeff the Train Tender.

But I'm still curious, when let's say a coil needs replacement, how is it done?
I've found out now you can file down the "tabs" and remove the metal U shaped cover over the coil, but how do you re-attach it?

Thanks
Dave

Some people slide a horseshoe washer behind the lever to tighten things up.
When I have an e-unit with a loose lever, I dissassemble the top section, and replace the rivet.
Some E-units are assembled with a copper eyelet, which seems to be too soft, and stretches over time.
The replacement e-unit eyelets are also copper. I located some brass ones, and use those for reassembly.
This is not the most pleasant job in the world. Try the horseshoe technique.

It is not necessary or desireable to file anything to remove the top. The top can be carefully pried off with a screwdriver. The splayed metal will bend out of the way. Sometimes I'll clean up the edges of the lugs before reinstalling the top piece, but that usually isn't necessary or desirable. I will often squeeze the top back in place with a pair of waterpump pliers. When everything is lined up, it does not take much force at all. If you have to squeeze hard, stop, because something isn't lined up. After the top is back on, sometimes the lugs need to be re-splayed. I use a 1/4 inch cold chisel. Just a light tap will do.
Folks should really invest in one of the Lionel service manual reprints. They are not very expensive, and contain all sorts of tips on how to make repairs. The small format, hard covered reprints that were done by Aurotec and Greenberg have all the important postwar documentation.

Thanks C.W.

Never occurred to me to use a horseshoe clip even though I had some.
A new idea for next time for sure!

I was hesitant at first to pry the sides thru/past the splayed ends.
Didn't want to force it.
On my next dead e-unit I will attempt this.

As you say, filing down the splayed ends was a bad decision because it resulted in nothing left to re-secure the sides!

I do have Greenberg's repair and operating manual 1945 to 1969.
It is very helpful but only goes so far.
For additional informaion I needed, I was able to ask you and others on this forum.
The OGR forum is a vast resource of knowledge I am grateful to have.

Thanks again
Dave

I like the horseshoe washer tip. On one of my e-units, I wedged a small, thin piece of cardboard behind the rivet to tighten the lever up.

If you are new to postwar repair, the best thing you could do is to buy a couple junk or parts locos from under a table at a train show, and fiddle with them to your heart's content, before tackling something on an irreplaceable item. I also second CW's advice on the Lionel repair manual, have been doing repairs since the '90s, and still find things in the repair manual that are helpful and I never noticed before.

If the space permits it, use a pair of mini vice grip pliers and compress the rivet with them. The mini's have very small jaws and exert quite a lot of pressure when closed, and they're adjustable. A word of advice. Practice on something to get the pressure right before using them on your engine rivet.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Trumpie:
I tighten the rivet by wedging a flat screwdriver between the coil and back side of the rivet to serve as an anvil, then I use a ball peen hammer to flare the rivet a bit more. Rest the E unit on a hard surface after you get the screwdriver in place. Don't kill it, just go easy until you have it where you want it.

I also have used this method on several E-units and it works well. You don't need a lot of force when you tap it with a hammer. I insert the small screwdriver behind the rivet, then place the screwdriver on the edge of the workbench and tap with a small hammer.

Fill the eyelet with solder where the e-unit lever "foot" makes contact. Clean the eyelet edges first with a small file or hobby tool buffer wheel then heat the eyelet with your soldering iron and apply solder. Make sure the solder flows freely and use enough solder to create a raised lump in the eyelet. Now when you move the lever to the "on" position, the foot is forced against the loose rivet and ground contact is much better.

This works very well as long as the rivet isn't too loose.

Unless you need/want to retain the "lock the loco in one direction" feature simply solder the lever to its contact, or otherwise bypass it. Reliability will be much improved.

>

What See Dubya said.......just pop the top off and tighten the rivet......there's no need to resort to less-than-optimal workarounds like screwdrivers, solder, etc.

Rod

quote:

What See Dubya said.......just pop the top off and tighten the rivet......there's no need to resort to less-than-optimal workarounds like screwdrivers, solder, etc.

Just curious Mikey, how many e-units have you broken down to replace or tighten the lever?

Probably a dozen or so......I use one of the impact riveters with backer to do the job......and you?

Rod

I use an appropriately shaped piece of scrap metal as a backer, and one of the rolling clinchers from my riveting tools, along with a leather mallet to strike the clincher's back (avoids damage).
As I mentioned above, I don't use the copper eyelets that are readily available today because I think they are too soft. I found appropriate sized brass eyelets.
I honestly couldn't hazard a guess at how many e-unit heads I've rebuilt. I did at least six or eight this past year when I started going through my cache of junk e-units to see what I could put together.

I think what we're both saying one way or the other is that this is a simple repair to do in a way that will last without risking damaging the e-unit coil (screwdriver shoved in as a backer) or resorting to solder workarounds and the like that won't last.

Rod

quote:

Originally posted by Mikey1951:
I think what we're both saying one way or the other is that this is a simple repair to do in a way that will last without risking damaging the e-unit coil (screwdriver shoved in as a backer) or resorting to solder workarounds and the like that won't last.

Rod

Won't last? Clearly you're talking about your soldered connections -- not mine.

>

We're talking about properly securing the e-unit lever so that it has proper tension and holds that tension for years. I've seen a lot of third-world engineering done to e-units that just does not stand the test of time. Soldering skill has nothing to do with the fact that it's just the wrong solution for a loose-fitting e-unit lever.

Rod

quote:

Originally posted by Mikey1951:
We're talking about properly securing the e-unit lever so that it has proper tension and holds that tension for years. I've seen a lot of third-world engineering done to e-units that just does not stand the test of time. Soldering skill has nothing to do with the fact that it's just the wrong solution for a loose-fitting e-unit lever.

Rod

In my post where I mentioned the "solder option" I clearly stated the circumstance under which one might consider it. Happy Halloween!

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I don't know how many E-Units I have repaired in the last 35 years. When I repair one I don't take short cuts. If you were one of my customers I don't think you would like me taking a short cut.

If you don't have time to Do it right the first time, were are you going to find the time to do it the second time.

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Boxcar Bill:
I don't know how many E-Units I have repaired in the last 35 years. When I repair one I don't take short cuts. If you were one of my customers I don't think you would like me taking a short cut.

If you don't have time to Do it right the first time, were are you going to find the time to do it the second time.

Bill

Bingo!!!

Rod

All I do is put a drop of solder on the contact making it a little higher and thus the lever fits tight!
I probably fixed 50 like this in my lifetime.
Good luck!

quote:

I don't know how many E-Units I have repaired in the last 35 years. When I repair one I don't take short cuts. If you were one of my customers I don't think you would like me taking a short cut.

Gee, I hope the folks that are asking these sort of questions aren't doing work for other people.
What seems elemental to you or Mikey1951 might be impossible for someone else.
Some of us don't have the proper tools. I don't know about you guys, but I amassed my tool and skill set over many years.

When I do work, there are no shortcuts, but if slipping a horseshoe washer in the works tighens the lever up, where is the harm?
When the time comes, that washer won't impede the proper repair.
I don't think I'd recommend filling the eyelet with solder

quote:

I don't think I'd recommend filling the eyelet with solder

I would say this may work on your e-unit for a short period of time but as the solder is soft, moving the lever across the solder blob this would wear out in no time.

quote:

I would say this may work on your e-unit for a short period of time but as the solder is soft, moving the lever across the solder blob this would wear out in no time.

On the other hand, how often do people move the lever back and forth?
One of the posters who recommended filling the eyelet with solder has been in the hobby for a very long time. If the solution didn't work for him, I don't think he would have recommended it.
I think that you guys that are rebuiling e-units with copper eyelets are going to have the same problem with the lever loosening up after a short period of time.

There are many ways to repair an E-unit. Sometimes one or more of these work. I've found it easier to just replace the unit with a NOS replacement.IMHO

quote:

Originally posted by C W Burfle:

quote:

I don't know how many E-Units I have repaired in the last 35 years. When I repair one I don't take short cuts. If you were one of my customers I don't think you would like me taking a short cut.

Gee, I hope the folks that are asking these sort of questions aren't doing work for other people.
What seems elemental to you or Mikey1951 might be impossible for someone else.
Some of us don't have the proper tools. I don't know about you guys, but I amassed my tool and skill set over many years.

When I do work, there are no shortcuts, but if slipping a horseshoe washer in the works tighens the lever up, where is the harm?
When the time comes, that washer won't impede the proper repair.
I don't think I'd recommend filling the eyelet with solder

C W

I have a machinist tool box that has all my repair tools in it with the exception of my Wheel press, Drill press and my soldering guns. I have tools that are forty years old in that box and with the exception of my Fluke multi-meter I probably have less then three hundred dollars invested in them and they are quaility tools from Snap-on, Mac, Matco, Craftsman and Lionel. There is no harm in using a horseshoe washer on your own, if thats how you want it fixed, but most people that are paying money to have the trains fixed would baulk at that idea.

Bill

quote:

I probably have less then three hundred dollars invested in them and they are quaility tools from Snap-on, Mac, Matco, Craftsman and Lionel.

You must have been an awfully good shopper to get all the tools you need for under three hundred dollars. Maybe I have folks mixed up, but I thought you had a red Lionel ST-350 press outfit. A naked ST-350, without any tooling, would typically go for over three hundred these days.

quote:

There is no harm in using a horseshoe washer on your own, if thats how you want it fixed, but most people that are paying money to have the trains fixed would baulk at that idea.

Why do you assume that folks that are asking for repair advise are doing repairs for others? I assume that they are doing repairs for themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by Boxcar Bill:
in using a horseshoe washer on your own, if thats how you want it fixed, but most people that are paying money to have the trains fixed would baulk at that idea.

Bill

Bill,
Let me say this about that!
With all due respect I must add after fixing Lionel for myself and others for 50 years, most people who need to go to a repair man to get Lionel trains fixed do not know or care how it is fixed just as long as it is a quality fix.....which, while not waranteed for life, most of us will honor a come back situation within a reasonable timeframe. I can't say I ever remember having a comeback on a drop of solder fix and never thought twice about CW's fix or I might have used it either "instead" or "as well"

There are many ways to skin a cat when it comes to repairs, especially if you are trying to keep the bill to the customer down to a reasonable level. It is good and very professional to remain flexible and adaptable in every situation.

Respectfully,

Hugh

You don't have to quailify yourself or your repairs to me. I stated how I did repairs and will continue to do so. When a customer brings in a repair I explain what it's going to cost and what I going to do, that way there are no surprises. Now it's up to the customer to make the choice to repair or not.


Bill

quote:

Originally posted by choochoohugo:

quote:

Originally posted by Boxcar Bill:
in using a horseshoe washer on your own, if thats how you want it fixed, but most people that are paying money to have the trains fixed would baulk at that idea.

Bill

Bill,
Let me say this about that!
With all due respect I must add after fixing Lionel for myself and others for 50 years, most people who need to go to a repair man to get Lionel trains fixed do not know or care how it is fixed just as long as it is a quality fix.....which, while not waranteed for life, most of us will honor a come back situation within a reasonable timeframe. I can't say I ever remember having a comeback on a drop of solder fix and never thought twice about CW's fix or I might have used it either "instead" or "as well"

There are many ways to skin a cat when it comes to repairs, especially if you are trying to keep the bill to the customer down to a reasonable level. It is good and very professional to remain flexible and adaptable in every situation.

Respectfully,

-------------------------------

Bingo!

Moreover, it can be useful to take a step back and get another perspective on the true nature of the problem. One such perspective is that the member's Lionel 600 won't go around the track reliably. How can we make it do so?

My personal solutions, are to replace the e-unit with new (perhaps rebuilt) one; or better still, an electronic one. This is on the theory that electro-mechanical e-units are notoriously difficult for novices to repair; and if the switch-lever has gone bad, it it unlikely to be the only part that has or soon will.

As far as soldering is concerned, although I have done the "fill the dimple" trick, my suggestion was simply to bypass the switch with soldered wire. As someone asked above, how often do you use the thing anyway? (The answer might depend on whether you have a train-display in a store window, or small children who are not ready to master the reverse sequence, etc.) As for me, I very seldom lock my locos in one gear, so I don't really need that "feature."

Since my very first Lionel train (circa 1946) I have been less-than-favorably impressed with the silver-colored lever sticking up out of steamers, as well as the electro-mechanical buzz that frequently occurs. Eventually I decided to substitute electronic e-uits almost exclusively. (My repairs/modifications are almost all for my own personal use only; but as I have enjoyed 100% success so far, I'd at least discuss them with anyone for whom I was doing a repair.)

One thing I would not do is to presume that my way is the only viable solution to a given problem. That sounds rather like arrogant "inside-the-box" thinking. As a forum we should and can do better. It runs the risk of discouraging folks from posting their individual and often very creative ideas,

>

One more thing to consider:

For those of you who prefer the electro-mechanical e-units (the ones that often buzz) be advised that some parts dealers require you to send them your old one "in good enough condition that it can be rebuilt." Just one more point that suggests not attempting a home repair that really buggers the thing up and/or cannot be reversed.

Over the years, Lionel has used a wide variety of e-units, both electro-mechanical and (more recently) electronic. The principal differences among the electro-mechanical ones is the position and direction of the silver lever. You may find it difficult to obtain exact replacements for some of the more unusually-placed ones; and may have to modify (bend or even cut off) the a portion of the lever even on a brand new one in order to get it to fit.

In many if not all cases, the old two-position units can be replaced with three-position ones. The two-position ones were generally reliable, but could be hard on the gears and other mechanical linkage if folks failed to throttle down before changing directions. Ouch!

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