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CC release of the Niagara was almost 10 years ago wasn't it? FEF has railsounds 5.0 so there's really no comparison.
You would be better off finding a 3rdrail Niagara. My best runner. Regards, Gary Long live the Boston & Albany. |
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I believe the Lionel Niagara had rail sounds 4.0? Which sound relatively the same as 3rd rail? It is also similar to 5.0 except for the addition of the inteligable crew talk? Not really sure. I did notice that this locomotive has all the other upgrades; pittman motor, fan driven smoke, TMCC, looks to be scale size.
I like 3rd rail but sometimes buying on the bay your not sure what your going to get; i.e. command/QSI/conventional, railsounds? You almost have to buy new which is quite pricey. |
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Everything made after the 3rd Rail early Allegheny has TMCC. Later runs have EOB. If you are patient, you can buy a 3rd Rail loco for a nice price and upgrade it to your favorite electronics system. There was a 3rd Rail Niagara on ebay two to three weeks ago that sold for only +/- $630. Better detailing, great pulling power, you just can't get any better than that! Heck, I got a 3rd Rail NYC L3b Mohawk off of ebay for only $600. And that one had factory equipped EOB! |
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Thanks Chessie Man,
No wonder there is not a big demand for the Lionel version, but can you tell me one thing what year was the early Allegeheny released? Everytime I look on the bay I really cannot tell if it has TMCC, and the sellers really don't know as well. Is there color on the box that gives this away?. Today there is a Challenger Z-6 on the Bay, really nice, however it has a limited description and no mention of sound or TMCC. The seller added a picture of the box and it is just marked as 3 rail...so does it have TMCC and railsounds? my guess is no. |
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Interesting thread. I have been wishing Lionel would release the Niagara as a Legacy loco. Explains why that may not happen. I guess I'll check on the bay occasionally.
Anyone care to put up pics of the 3rd rail Niagara? |
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Team, Found this out on youtube. Gives some idea of sounds and looks. Cheers Don
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYvCfG_yjBw |
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The Z6 comes with TMCC and railsounds. http://www.3rdrail.com/found.htm |
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The sound in the CC Niagara is the very same sound set that Lionel licenses to other importers. The 3rd Rail Mohawks, Niagara and Hudsons sound just like the loco in the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wESpGRs6zNk&NR=1 |
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To add to what Chessieman just posted, above; the big difference in the 3rd Rail sound out-put is the 4-chuffs per revolution. Yes, 3rd Rail uses TMCC, rail sounds 4, and EOB (EOB on later production models), but most importantly, has 4-chuffs per revolution. And of course, much better detail.
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One might want to be careful about assuming such. The CCII Niagara has a Nathan airchime whistle as part of its sound set in addition to a steam whistle. The Lionel has two speakers and, generally, die-cast tenders tuned by Lionel for RS tend to sound better than sheet brass. Also to be considered, youtube sound quality isn't exactly hi-fi, therefore comparisons made using it are suspect. The Lionel does not have quite the brass detail, but what is there is accurate. Obtained at the 'right price', the four chuffs/rev issue (with economic justification) could be addressed, too, obviously. I, too, feel that as a model the 3rd Rail is the better piece, but let's be careful, shall we?  Bob Bubeck |
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Bob,
Thank you for your input. Did not know about the Nathan air chime, and a very cool feature. I would not call this a rare locomotive, but I have never seen one run. It sure looks great and I think Lionel did a good job with it. I have seen them fairly priced from 650 to 800 but needed to do some homework on it. I am not really concerned about the 4 chuffs per rev. Seems nobody on the Forum yet has noted owning one? Well if one does please let me know what you think of it. |
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This loco has recently peaked my curiousity as well. Look up CSX Al here on the forum. That is his youtube video and I am sure he can tell you more about it. |
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Thanks Scorpion, the Utube shot I saw was titled 'Milk run" and it did not do the engine justice. But after seeing this video I am adding this one to the hit list. Thanks again. |
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Ugh!..... Good for you.... |
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We have one and enjoy it very much.... Norm is a big fan of his - though he has updated it significantly..... have you seen that thread? |
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Hi J Daddy,
I have a CC Niagara. It is my best looking Lionel big steamer and has a massive appearance. It has features that I can only wish that my new Legacy PRR M1b would have: round boiler, full sized front pilot wheels with brake pads that actually center on the wheels, close coupled to the tender with a drop plate between loco and tender and sliding cab windows. The Odyssey speed control is very smooth with no jerk on startup. Smoke is weak and the speakers on mine have a lot of static. The tender is not as detailed as the loco: one piece plastic coal, the brake pads don't line up with the wheels and no chains on the trucks. The drivers, as pointed out previously by others, have some pin head sized spots. I would definately be a buyer for a Legacy version with extra details, especially details on the tender. Allan |
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I have seen Norm C's layout, but not with this engine in it... do you a have a link to it? Thanks. |
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Allan, with the following comment, "smoke is weak" it is a fan driven unit right? I guess a new updated smoke unit would not cost that much. Static in the speakers... I have seen this on my 2001 J4a Dreyfus Hudson. Do you think this is a speaker issue or is it in the electronics itself? You know this engine would be so cool with some blackened drivers and nice white walls on the tires! |
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J daddy: Yes, the smoke unit is fan driven. I don't know the reason for the static, but it is definately more noticeable than the static on my 2001 Dreyfus Hudson. My guess is that it is the speakers.
Allan |
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Another thing to look for: the adhesive on the front number plate and the pilot air hose loosened and both fell off. I found the number plate and used epoxy to reapply it but am still looking for the air hose. I will try Lionel when its parts department reopens.
Allan |
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Yeah Norm has done a great job with his layout and locomotives. It looks great all weathered up and the driver rods painted.
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Allan (northeast) has described the attributes of Lionel Niagara well. Another feature that one can mention is the IR tether. The design work was done by Ajin working with Lionel and there is a lot of value content for a scale-sized die-cast engine of its period (9 years ago). In the case of my sample, the only issue I have had is that the chuff switch required adjustment early on. Mine has been a good runner and I have had no other issues (functional or cosmetic) with it over the decade. Other than now sounding 'dated' in comparison to RS5, I have not experienced any static or other problems with the sounds.
Still worth consideration, if the price is right. Bob Bubeck |
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Thanks Bob,
I agree. I used to think any Lionel CC II had a pullmore motor in it and would just pass it by. I think this locomotive has more to offer than I originally thought. How did you adjust your chuff rate switch? I have an Lionel M1a mountain that chuffs before the wheels move...no biggie but sometimes its annoying. |
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I have this engine. One of the nicest. It has odyssey speed control, runs very well. It is not jerky at all. The sounds are terrific, has the unintelligible crew talk. Also has a diesel horn and a Steam whistle. Has the tender plate so the engineer and the fireman can "walk" from the engine to the tender. The only down sides are 2 chuffs per revolution, weak smoke unit, and the cast in coal load. Otherwise great engine.
[IMG]Lionel CCII Niagara[/IMG]    |
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In my case, the problem was with dropped chuffs. The switch had to be positioned and tightened so that it would dependably cam "on" momentarially to trigger the chuff. The Niagara, by the way, is one of Lionel's less convenient engines to disassemble to gain access to the Cherry switch. What you are observing (I believe), JD, with your M1a is the effect of starting engine motion from rest with the chuff switch in the "on" position due to the position of the axle cam. Personnally, I do not know of a adjustment to eliminate this (maybe, someone here does), but selecting one of the lower train speeds while running with Legacy with Odyssey 'on' hides the effect by making the first chuff one in a nearly even series of chuffs. Bob Bubeck |
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You know what made me mad after seeing this engine? It was the fact that Lionel could put a "round" boiler on the NYC Niagra and couldn't do it with the N&W J.
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Do you check to make sure the smoke fan is going in the right direction. Mine wasn't. It does smoke better now, but not like a Mike's or RS 5.0.
John |
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That is an understatement. Fred -- Running the CC1 Berk with the Legends of Lionel Madisons -- |
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When I purchased my CC Niagara off the bay it had a bad switch and the chuffing only worked in reverse.
No kidding, here was mine in pieces.  I do really like this engine otherwise. It will be getting weathered like Norm's engine this Fall. CSX Al Gotta' run - got a layout to build You can checkout photos, track plan of the layout and model photos & other projects at: http://home.earthlink.net/~csxal/ or hobby products at: http://www.studiozphoto.com/Millhouse.html |
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CsxAl,
All I can say is AHHHH! I don't look forward to taking this one apart. I have taken many a steam locomotives apart (from a Legacy FEF to Post war conv.) and this one looks like a nightmare! I believe I say your locomotive on Utube. Did you static issues with yours as well? Does a speaker swap solve the problem? Thanks, |
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HI J Daddy,
Yes that was my Youtube video in the link earlier in the thread. I didn't any have a static issue with this engine it was my Super Hudson that was giving me static. That issue was just the generic RS 4 issue which I don't hear in this engine. CSX Al Gotta' run - got a layout to build You can checkout photos, track plan of the layout and model photos & other projects at: http://home.earthlink.net/~csxal/ or hobby products at: http://www.studiozphoto.com/Millhouse.html |
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Al,
Did you change your Lionel CC Niagara to 4-chuffs per revolution? |
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No Jack I didn't. CSX Al Gotta' run - got a layout to build You can checkout photos, track plan of the layout and model photos & other projects at: http://home.earthlink.net/~csxal/ or hobby products at: http://www.studiozphoto.com/Millhouse.html |
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So you took it apart because....
I still cringe when I have to take my diesels apart. |
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Holy Cow...You guy's ain't kidding, that thing is a bear to take apart. I took mine apart to repack the smoke units wick. Hit smoke boost on the Cab-1 a few too many times and fried the wick. You Lionel guy's know what I'm talking about.
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Ok, so call me an idiot, but I cannot figure out the smoke boost. I tried hitting the Aux-1 button and 9 and/or 8 and all that happens is the smoke toggles on or off...what am I doing wrong?
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I have worked on a few CC Niagaras and agree with the guys on this post. They are not fun to work on. Smoke impellers were wired backwards on both (they need to spin clockwise) locomotives. I do not like the way they run and do not like the coal load. It is old school and not good looking.
All things considered, it is not in the same ball park as my new Legacy Union Pacific 844. I love that locomotive and can not imagine how anyone could one up that locomotive. I feel with Mike Regan at Lionel now, the old days are behind us. Marty Fitzhenry TCA # 79-13758 TTOS # 3057 LOTS # RM-4833 LCCA # 28444 MTH Repair Technician MTH DCS Beta Tester |
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Because of this little switch went bad ($2 part)  and causes the chuff sound to stop working. Here it is all back together  By the way, it was worth fixing it since I only paid $350 for it to begin with. CSX Al Gotta' run - got a layout to build You can checkout photos, track plan of the layout and model photos & other projects at: http://home.earthlink.net/~csxal/ or hobby products at: http://www.studiozphoto.com/Millhouse.html |
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J Daddy,
You have to press Aux-1, and then hold the 9 key. According to the manual (which is available on the Lionel website), do not hold the 9 key down for more than ten seconds. This is on page 13 of the engine manual. Bill Pennsy....The Standard Railroad Of The World - Then, Now, & Forever!!!!! |
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OK We got a picture of the chuff switch and where it's located. Now is it possible to make a cam with more lobes to increase the chuff rate?
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Gary,
I don't know about making a new cam with more lobes since it is also part of the driver wheels axle. You might be able to glue on an extra piece of something opposite the cam but I don't know how that would hold up. CSX Al Gotta' run - got a layout to build You can checkout photos, track plan of the layout and model photos & other projects at: http://home.earthlink.net/~csxal/ or hobby products at: http://www.studiozphoto.com/Millhouse.html |
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Thanks Bill, I will try this at home tonight. Is this something that all TMCC locomotives will do or only ones produced lately? |
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I do not know if the earliest (i.e. first couple years of production) TMCC engines with smoke had the feature. You would have to check the instruction manual for the engine to know for sure. All later engines with smoke should have it.
Bill Pennsy....The Standard Railroad Of The World - Then, Now, & Forever!!!!! |
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So I assume the ones with puffing smoke (piston powered) do not have the boost option.
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Actually, my 1996 vintage C&O Streamlined Hudson has puffing smoke (via a piston) and it has the smoke boost feature. I would assume that other engines with the puffing smoke via a piston have it as well, though the best course of action would be to check the manual for a particular engine if you are absolutely not sure.
Bill Pennsy....The Standard Railroad Of The World - Then, Now, & Forever!!!!! |
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You know being of male gender and an engineer to boot you think I'd never read a manual or instruction sheet, but I did and I cannot find mention of it anywhere, guess I will look again.
Thanks |
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J Daddy,
I'm pretty sure all TMCC engines have smoke boost. It's just hard to see and doesn't last very long on the piston models. I have a 18056 Hudson w/vandy tender and it has it. That engine is from 95 or 96. The C&O Hudson (#18045?) from 94 or 95 that Bill mentions has it also. (Just really hard to see.) I have a Boston and Albany small hudson with TMCC (forget the number 18019 I think) from 94 or 95, I'm pretty shore that has it as well. Mike R |
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Most of these models do not have enough wick and packing to get a good smoke output. I had a CC 773 with a piston, and it was anemic until I filled the fluid chamber with fiberglass (there was absolutely no packing) and flared the ends of the wick to soak up the fluid from the fiberglass. After that, I never had to use the AUX 9. I had smoke even coming out around the cylinders. Fred -- Running the CC1 Berk with the Legends of Lionel Madisons -- |
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