The newly issued ATSF Premier passenger cars look good to me, as I stated in my original post. I'm keeping my set without regrets and will run them with a Lionel ATSF F-3.

I believe the color is prototypical looking at the photos online that others have furnished. As you know, photography can distort colors so it is best to view these cars at your dealer to see what they look like in person. It was also suggested in one of the posts that you look at them under natural lighting. I'm sure the vast majority of you will be pleased with the color and quality.

If you have ordered the cars I suggest you DO NOT rely on comments here to decide whether you like them or not. See them in person, under daylight and I'm sure you will see the same quality I see.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Larry3,

Anybody have photos of the cars?

CALL Andy Edleman at MTH!

Better yet, buy aluminum passenger cars instead.

Calling Andy will get you no response....well.....lets just say that when I called him on the Burlington E-unit plating issue, I never received a call back and that was after I left two messages. He did respond to the thread I started concerning the problem and basically said: "Whoops, my fault, if you don't like them return them to your dealer". Sometimes it is not that simple especially if you have ordered/purchased passenger cars to match the units or visa versa such as in my case. Also, I bought from a friend who indicated he might get stuck with them since he purchased from a distributor if I returned them. I too ordered the Santa Fe F-units and this time if they have a problem with the finish, I am going to refuse them. It appears that attention to what is being advertised and what is being delivered have nothing to do with one another.

Yes, the bronzed look is no illusion or problems with my eyes!

Can you post some photos of these?

quote:

Originally posted by leavingtracks:
Also, I bought from a friend who indicated he might get stuck with them since he purchased from a distributor if I returned them.

That's unfortunate but if you don't return them MTH will never get the message. Your friend needs to return them to the distributor and they need to return them to MTH. By not returning them, you are simply accepting the fact the MTH has pulled a fast one on you allowing MTH to keep your money with no motivation to get it right for future releases.

Joe...I understand what you are saying but the circumstances are unique in this particular case and I will not put my friend of many years in a hard spot.... even though it was said that dealers will get a credit for the returned merchandise, the agreement between the distributor and dealer could be negatively affected. I have cut back on MTH purchases since this plating problem and I have voted at this point with my pocketbook for future releases.

Thanks,
Alan

quote:

He did respond to the thread I started concerning the problem and basically said: "Whoops, my fault, if you don't like them return them to your dealer". Sometimes it is not that simple especially if you have ordered/purchased passenger cars to match the units or visa versa such as in my case.

Again?.... We are going through this all again?.... Andy responded to the last thread and said to return them - I am sure they have no problem with them being returned all the way up the channel.... they will get bought by somebody somewhere and that will be that.....

quote:

I have cut back on MTH purchases since this plating problem and I have voted at this point with my pocketbook for future releases.

Fine - good - no problem....

Somebody working for M.T.H. occasionally tints the Premier Line colors towards the yellow end of the spectrum.

Where did that info come from? When you tell OGR Forum Members not to buy a product from someone, I think you have a responsibility to show proof of your claim and not throw daggers in the dark without documentation. Where are the pictures?????

I think those Burlington E8 units look great. Besides, MTH actually wound up modeling the "non-stainless steel" versions of the Burlington E8s! Remember, NOT all of the Burlington E8 units (and E7 units also) received the stainless steel side panels.

I saw the Burlington MTH "plated" passenger car sets at my local hobby shop, and they sure looked OK to me. But, lets see color corrected photos of the Santa Fe passenger cars you are referring to.

quote:

Somebody working for M.T.H. occasionally tints the Premier Line colors towards the yellow end of the spectrum.

They like the way the cars look in the late day sun.....

The challenging part is that without a color correction done on the original image and with so few people having color corrected monitors ...... how is it possible to REALLY see what the color is without seeing the finish in person?

I saw the real cars in service during their commuter days on the Jersey Shore. I know what THEY are supposed to look like, but posting a digital picture to match? Not as easy a proposition.

Plus ... pump up the hue one way or the other and you can make the cars any color you like. Orange, purple, blue, yellow ... whatever.

Hey "Muffin"....Next time YOU invest a healthy sum into a set of passenger cars to match a set of locomotives, perhaps you will have a little understanding in the disappointment many of us had. No one said the units weren't attractive...they were just not as advertised and this was after the correction announced they would be plated. By the way, while not all units had the stainless steel, the prototype cab numbers modeled in fact had the stainless panels applied. Now....if my bringing it up again has caused you distress...well.....what can I say??

I do agree with others that pictures of the ATSF cars should be posted since the plating on the Burlington cars looks good AND as advertised....

Take the pictures in with a white balance card near the car, and stay away from any fluorescent or LED lighting.

quote:

Originally posted by MrMuffin'sTrains:

quote:

Somebody working for M.T.H. occasionally tints the Premier Line colors towards the yellow end of the spectrum.

They like the way the cars look in the late day sun.....

After being on the beach all day with Coppertone on.

I'm sure if we are patient and avoid sniping at one another, some disappointed ATSF fan will come forward and post a pic showing the bronze-tone passenger cars.

quote:

Hey "Muffin"....Next time YOU invest a healthy sum into a set of passenger cars to match a set of locomotives, perhaps you will have a little understanding in the disappointment many of us had. No one said the units weren't attractive...they were just not as advertised and this was after the correction announced they would be plated. By the way, while not all units had the stainless steel, the prototype cab numbers modeled in fact had the stainless panels applied. Now....if my bringing it up again has caused you distress...well.....what can I say??

I do agree with others that pictures of the ATSF cars should be posted since the plating on the Burlington cars looks good AND as advertised....

You're right of course.... all in fun..... if they'd hosed up EL Gray now that would have been another matter......

quote:

Originally posted by illinoiscentral:
Take the pictures in with a white balance card near the car, and stay away from any fluorescent or LED lighting.

I don't think anybody wants to post pics, they just want to complain.

quote:

I don't think anybody wants to post pics, they just want to complain.

Absolutely! The dialog here is virtually worthless without photos--properly made photos--of the "offending" cars.

It is not worthless without the photos. I could not take photos in the Orange hall; however, I will not be purchasing any of those cars because they will not match my existing 7 car consist with my E6 ABA. Just one person's opinion and I am voting with my wallet. I am just very glad that I was at York and that I did not preorder a couple of the tinted cars.

Doesn't true stainless steel have sort of a very light yellow tint to it anyway?

Nope!

Jack, I have to disagree. There are dozens of stainless alloys. Most if not all have a percentage of nickel in them. The more the nickel the more it will appear to have a bronze tinge. The effect gets darker as the alloy ages or tarnishes. It might not rust but it still oxidizes. The effect can easily be seen on stainless exhaust pipes. New and polished they can appear close to chrome but exposed to heat they will turn yellow. They can be polished again to restore the chrome like appearance. Time and exposure to the elements will produce similar results but not as quickly.

One way to demonstrate the tone of these cars is photograph one next to an aluminum car to show the difference.

Pete

quote:

Originally posted by Allan Miller:

quote:

I don't think anybody wants to post pics, they just want to complain.

Absolutely! The dialog here is virtually worthless without photos--properly made photos--of the "offending" cars.

I disagree. Clearly, there's a problem. Sure, pictures would be a huge help; however, those who are interested in the cars are given a heads-up on the product, and that's where this forum is very helpful.

Heath B.

For what it's worth, you might want to change your "tag line". The real MIL #261 will no longer be comming around the mountain! She is about to be returned to the Green Bay Museum, "stuffed & mounted"!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Water:
Heath B.

For what it's worth, you might want to change your "tag line". The real MIL #261 will no longer be comming around the mountain! She is about to be returned to the Green Bay Museum, "stuffed & mounted"!

LOL...I just want a die-cast model of it from whomever...Lionel or MTH! Duly noted and the tag line is changed.

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:
Jack, I have to disagree. There are dozens of stainless alloys. Most if not all have a percentage of nickel in them. The more the nickel the more it will appear to have a bronze tinge. The effect gets darker as the alloy ages or tarnishes. It might not rust but it still oxidizes. The effect can easily be seen on stainless exhaust pipes. New and polished they can appear close to chrome but exposed to heat they will turn yellow. They can be polished again to restore the chrome like appearance. Time and exposure to the elements will produce similar results but not as quickly. Pete

I'm not sure what would happen if you put a stainless steel passenger car in a large oven for months at a temperature in excess of 200 degrees so that it simulates an exhaust pipe. But there is a guy here in town who has a collection of old passenger cars, including stainless steel ones, as does the local train museum (both located outdoors), and I don't see evidence that they have any bronze sheen at all.

Neither does my gas grill.

quote:

I disagree. Clearly, there's a problem. Sure, pictures would be a huge help; however, those who are interested in the cars are given a heads-up on the product, and that's where this forum is very helpful.

I don't have a dog in this fight, so am not particularly concerned one way or another. But I still haven't seen any evidence of a problem.

Hi Pete. My exposure to stainless was during my career with Eastman Kodak (28 years) where stainless steel was used due to the harsh chemicals that equipment was subjected to. Kodak probably used a higher grade of stainless than a exhaust pipe. My observation was that the stainless we used altho exposed to caustic chemicals and, in some cases fairly high temperatures, would loose its luster but did not turn yellow or bronze or any other color other than silver. Early in my career as a machinist at another local company (9 years) I worked stainless materials on various mills, drills, lathes etc. and the cutting process generated high temps and none of that stock turned yellow either.
So anyway my question is would a railroad, that is sensitive to public perception, use such a cheap grade of stainless that it wouldn't maintain the original polished appearance? Was such a low grade material even available back then? Seems that lower quality materials are more of a current day phenomenon in the quest for higher profits.

quote:

Originally posted by Jack C. Smith:
Was such a low grade material even available back then? Seems that lower quality materials are more of a current day phenomenon in the quest for higher profits.

Jack, First off I don't have a clue as to what stainless alloys were available in the '30s but I suspect only a few existed then. Maybe someone more familiar with what Budd used (one of pioneers of SS cars) might have a reference. I don't think quality is the issue but what characteristics that alloy provided. Alloys that can be easily machined are not necessarily easy to weld or bend. Ever try and drill a hole in that stainless bench top? The materials for exhaust pipes are chosen because they can be bent and welded and then withstand vibration without cracking. Most likely not the same material used back in the day for passenger cars. That said, how is it you can look at car and tell its stainless and not chrome plated or aluminum? Stainless has an appearance that when placed next most any other metal can identified.

Pete

quote:

But I still haven't seen any evidence of a problem.

Allan, I just called Engine House Hobbies to see if they had the new car in stock to I could take a photo of the two cars. Lucie told me that they had one set; however, they sold it this weekend. In the light at their store (large picture window), she said it was a different color (gold tint in her words) and she said it would not match the cars I have bought from them earlier.

This should answer the color problem. Finally there's a photo. Don

Lol! That looks 2-rail. Great weathering, btw. I don't think the little man figure is scale, however.

I just received my cars today and I checked the color to see if they had the bronze tint. I remember seeing the SF cars at York and they had a bronze tint but the cars I just received do not have the tint. I was happy with the color as long as they match the new SF F-3 with chromed plating. I wasn't happy with the small one inch vertical scratches under every window on the sleeper and under a few windows on the Diner, see picture below. Another disappointment, the coating wasn't done correctly, it is uneven.

I have an EM into MTH stating the same concerns;

Here is a picture of the above Zephyr car color corrected (at least in my opinion) to take the tint out of it. I base my correction on getting a more natural blue to the sky. The color shift could have been due to the slide/print aging, wrong filter originally, or something else. Regardless, you can see how filtering or color shift makes difficult to compare old pictures. Also the sand/dirt next to the Zephyr is gold colored which also affects the color.

Ok, here is the real color from my camera. No kidding. Don

Greg, you missed my joke.
I tinted the picture. These shots were taken only two years ago of a trip my wife and I took on private cars. These are three of the old stainless Zephyr cars. I took these with a Nikon D70s camera. Your right the color will change with the time of day, amount of sunlight, sand and overcast or lack of overcast. These were taken about 2:00 pm. Here is a F unit taken the same day. I don't think any of the side is stainless. Hope this helps. Don

I didn't get the joke either. Good one! I also thought it was an old picture or slide.

You'd never know I graduated from the "Henny Youngman" School of comedy. Don

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Water:
Heath B.

For what it's worth, you might want to change your "tag line". The real MIL #261 will no longer be comming around the mountain! She is about to be returned to the Green Bay Museum, "stuffed & mounted"!

I'm not trying to hijack this thread....

Hotwater are you saying that the 261 is going to be retired like the 611?

That its days of running around in the upper mdiwest are OVER?

Eagle

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:
Jack, First off I don't have a clue as to what stainless alloys were available in the '30s but I suspect only a few existed then. Maybe someone more familiar with what Budd used (one of pioneers of SS cars) might have a reference.
Pete

These cars were built in the 50s.

quote:

I just received my cars today and I checked the color to see if they had the bronze tint. I remember seeing the SF cars at York and they had a bronze tint but the cars I just received do not have the tint. I was happy with the color as long as they match the new SF F-3 with chromed plating. I wasn't happy with the small one inch vertical scratches under every window on the sleeper and under a few windows on the Diner, see picture below. Another disappointment, the coating wasn't done correctly, it is uneven.

I have an EM into MTH stating the same concerns;

Certainly don't like the marks - what's with that?

Not totally related to this thread, but Budd Company was THE pioneer of stainless steels cars starting with small rubber over steel wheel self propelled units starting in 1931. The Santa Fe got the first stainless steel full length passenger car in 1936. The last stainless steel car order they completed was the carbodies for the AEM7 in 1977 before exiting the passenger car business. With their patented shot-welding process, these cars have proven to be among the most durable cars in service with many having a service record of nearly 50 years in daily service.

Stainless steel does vary by specific content, but the tones are much closer to silver than to gold or bronze, just not as silver as alumnimum. The photo posted so far seems to indicate a fairly accurate color tone. I have seen the 3070 coach in service during it's later years on New Jersey Transit and their is no bronze tint to the prototype. Comparing that prototype coach to later stainless cars running on the NY&LB, there has not been much of a change in color, if any during Budd's period of building passenger cars.

quote:

Originally posted by bazonkers:

Bump, When is somebody going to post photos of the offending cars??

quote:

Originally posted by FrankRazz:
I just received my cars today and I checked the color to see if they had the bronze tint. I remember seeing the SF cars at York and they had a bronze tint but the cars I just received do not have the tint. I was happy with the color as long as they match the new SF F-3 with chromed plating. I wasn't happy with the small one inch vertical scratches under every window on the sleeper and under a few windows on the Diner, see picture below. Another disappointment, the coating wasn't done correctly, it is uneven.

I have an EM into MTH stating the same concerns;

You mean like the one Frank Razz posted already?