After months of construction and bone busting work, the basement is finished.

Ta Da !!

Now the dream continues.
I am designing a large layout and, of course, trying to incorporate all of the features I love to see on layouts and hoping to eliminate all of the "issues" and mistakes from my last layout. On the last layout . . . .

1) I put the power switches under the layout accessible only by using the ducking ****under. NEVER again !!
2) I had storage tracks I could not reach unless I put a ladder next to the layout, reached way over like the flying Stumbollinis from Ringling, and then used a grabber/pusher pole. NEVER again !!
3) I put the backdrop on last so I ended up with seams and crazy cloud formations. NEVER again !!
4) I didn't plan all the curves and my Big Boy made the tunnel bigger without breaking a sweat. NEVER again !!
5) My wires under the table looked like ten bowls of tri colored angel hair pasta. NEVER again !!
6) I ballasted my Atlas switches using a watery glue and the fluid seeped under the switches causing shorts. NEVER again !!
7) I built the last layout with very long ( 12-15 foot ) open grid tables that made disassembly impossible. NEVER again !!

This time, I'm going to avoid all of those issues.
What else do I have to look out for?

eliot

Eliot....I am going to mount just under and inside the front edge of the layout lengths of 2" PVC. This PVC pipe will have a portion cut out of it in order to layout wire inside. All wiring will be dropped from the top of the layout and then pulled over to the front edge where all connecting and other work can be done. The wire will then be laid into the pipe (conduit). This will eliminate most of the "under the layout" back breaking work and keep the wiring neat and nearby for maintainence or additions. By the way, what are going to be the dimensions of your new layout?

Alan

Sounds like a very sane and reasonable list of "never again" to me, Eliot! Good luck with the construction and, most importantly, have fun!

Don't use your house (notice I didn't say wife's) vacuum cleaner to pick up loose ballast.

Try some of that textured spray paint for your scenery. I used some that looks like black/grey/white gravel for my paved surfaces and thought it came out great. Oh...it takes a loooong time to dry so don't touch it for a few hours/days.

Build it high. Mine is at 48" and is easy to get under. The down side is it cuts down on your reach as you are not bending over (get one of those claw grabbers)

I wish I had waited to put down ballast for about 2 years. This past year I ended up re-locating about 50% of my track and of course had to undo the ballst first, what a mess. I still haven't put it back down as I want to make sure of the track plan this time, so far so good.

Buy more paint than you think you need. If you have to make any corrections later you'll be glad you did.

I wish there was a way to mount buildings so that they plugged into something embedded on the layout for lights. PREPLAN your building locations as much as possible.

My list of never agains is very short. Next layout will be an around the room type, with islands to create track mileage where aisles are wide, and no section of the layout is wider than 24", somewhat like Neal PRRmiddledivisions. As my layout developed over the years, I find myself less and less interested in the operating accessories and more and more in just watching them run.
Good Luck with your new layout Elliot! Sounds like you are entering an exciting phase, and keep us posted with pictures!

Hang a piece of plywood vertically just behind the front of the layout. Bring all you wires to terminal strips. Never have to get under again.

I never understood the need to glue down ballast. The ballast stays in place (mostly) by itself and a small brush easily brings offending pieces back into place.

This eliminates the water-glue process and makes for easy alterations to trackwork.

Eliot - do you have Erol locked in the basement to help?

Paul

Consider building the layout around the perimeter of the room instead of building a big table in the middle of the room. You get more operating opportunities that way while still allowing a lot of room in the middle of the room for people.

You might also take a look at L-girder bench work. That construction method is easy to build, it is very strong and it provides a lot of flexibility in how you build the track plan and scenery supports.

quote:

I never understood the need to glue down ballast.

For the same reason ballast is used on real railroads. If you glue it, the ballast holds the track in place without screws. You can screw the track in place here and and there, add the ballast, glue it and let it dry. Then you can remove the screws, which are what transmit the sound to the plywood underneath. It can make for some very quiet running, plus the track is held very firmly in place.

quote:

Originally posted by OGR Webmaster:
Consider building the layout around the perimeter of the room instead of building a big table in the middle of the room. You get more operating opportunities that way while still allowing a lot of room in the middle of the room for people.

That will be the way my next layout is built for sure. Especially as I grow older. It's got to be easier to access the layout during building.

Hi Eliot,

Your NEVER list is great. Someone (I believe my Dad) told me that a "wise" person is one who learns from their own or other's mistakes. It looks like your fall into the wise catagory.

I agree with MartyE. Marty.....I'm already old....and I have found that with the "around the room" layout it is so much easier to work on the layout and also view the trains running. Storage under the layout easier to get at also.

I wish you good luck with your new project. I probably should have some NEVER's to add to your list, but my hard drive is drawing a blank.

Tex

Thanks for the heads up regarding the switches. I still need to ballast and due to reading this thread I will not glue the ballast on the switches.

--Greg

Since I've yet to get past the plywood top stage, I find this to be an interesting issue,

quote:

6) I ballasted my Atlas switches using a watery glue and the fluid seeped under the switches causing shorts. NEVER again !!

I'll add never buy track screws, track pins, and wire in small quantities.

It's amazing how quickly one always seems to run out (and it usually happens when you finally have set aside time to work on the layout!)

Jim

p.s. Don't forget to post pics as you progress on the layout!

Use Matt Medium instead of water/glue. It's more expensive but it's thicker and more flexible.

quote:

) My wires under the table looked like ten bowls of tri colored angel hair pasta. NEVER again !!

No matter how hard i try and never seem to improve in this area ....

Eliot....my hard drive is back on-line, I finished my first cup of coffee...

1. NEVER place remote switches in tunnels.
2. NEVER construct your layout BEFORE completing your backdrop's.
3. NEVER use "spray" glue/matte medium mixture in scenery making.
4. NEVER start layout construction before having train room lighting installed.

There are probably more....but I have a glitch again....more coffee I guess.

Tex

Eliot - You have a great list of ideas.

I would add:

1. No duckunders. The body gets too old for them and your guests won't like them either.

2. Make all aisles a minimum of 36" wide. Even if you don't have visitors, you will never regret having adequate space to get around and enjoy your layout.

3. Layout height is generally more enjoyable the higher it is. I have mine at 40 1/2" and wish already I had made it higher.

Art

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TexSpecial:

3. NEVER use "spray" glue/matte medium mixture in scenery making.


Please elaborate on this one a bit more.
Tom B

I'll say that if you guys keep posting your "nevers", I might just get the layout built right this time! Thanks, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by OGR Webmaster:
Consider building the layout around the perimeter of the room instead of building a big table in the middle of the room. You get more operating opportunities that way while still allowing a lot of room in the middle of the room for people.

You might also take a look at L-girder bench work. That construction method is easy to build, it is very strong and it provides a lot of flexibility in how you build the track plan and scenery supports.

quote:

I never understood the need to glue down ballast.

For the same reason ballast is used on real railroads. If you glue it, the ballast holds the track in place without screws. You can screw the track in place here and and there, add the ballast, glue it and let it dry. Then you can remove the screws, which are what transmit the sound to the plywood underneath. It can make for some very quiet running, plus the track is held very firmly in place.

Hmm, I always thought that the railroads used ballast to allow for water to drain away so there was no frost heave from water freezing,which would happen if they put it on the ground. I seem to recall the early railroads, before going to the wooden cross ties, used to mount the track to flat stone slabs, that when the ground froze would wreak havoc from being thrown out of whack. I guess it would help hold the rails in place, though I kind of figured the weight of the rail and ties would be enough to keep it from sliding around.

boxcoupler......

When I first started to do the scenery (bushes, grass, etc.) I bought two video's on how to apply scenery on a layout. One stated that you brush glue/water mix on your homosote or whatever, sprinkle grass on, use glue to attach bushes, etc., then overspray everything with diluted matte medium/water mix.

The second video said to apply scenery material and go over entire section using diluted matte medium/water mix with eye droper. (a lot of time and work). Well, I did the easiest one first with the spray and it turned out bad. So I removed the scenery and applied as per second video....wa la...turned out perfect. So I take my time now when applying scenery.

I hope this answers questions you may of had. I believe the spray thing might be ok on smaller layouts but I recommend using the slow eyedropper method.

Tex

All my track is screwed down with black screws countersunk; they "fade" right into the Gargraves ties.

Maybe I can get away with ballasting without glue and just not remove the screws?

All the track sits on Homasote roadbed so the screws don't go into the plywood sub-base. It's pretty quiet as 3-rail goes. No screws would be quieter but not much. I glued one section to see the difference and it is not much quieter than screwed; a little but not much.

It's a thought. Wonder what the drawbacks would be to that approach?

quote:

Originally posted by TexSpecial:

I believe the spray thing might be ok on smaller layouts but I recommend using the slow eyedropper method.

Tex

Thanks Tex. But I was more interested in your comment as it applies to the initial application of adhesive to anchor the scenery. Do you see any problem there with using a spray adhesive?
Tom B

There are two problems I found using the spray mix of white glue or matte medium and water. Its gets over everything that isn't covered. So if you have track, etc. you have to cover these when you spray around them. Second, you have to keep mixing what's in bottle and clean sprayer after every use. If you let this stuff stay in bottle without cleaning for any length of time, it plugs up all the works.

For the base adhesive for grass, dirt, etc. I just brush matte medium or white glue with brush.....sprinkle material on top and let that dry.

Tex

quote:

I always thought that the railroads used ballast to allow for water to drain away

Yes, that's one purpose of the ballast. The other is TO HOLD THE TRACK IN PLACE.

An old Roadmaster once told me that there were three "keys" to the construction and maintenance of good track, They were:

DRAINAGE, DRAINAGE and DRAINAGE.

I have a few more "never agains" you might consider...along with some "should do's"
-if you have a yard, make it a run through and not a stub end yard. If you don't you will find your engines always on the wrong end of the train, and trapped
-make sure you can easily access ALL of your track and ALL of your switches. The track access will be needed to clean it well, even with a track cleaning car. Switch maintenance is about 50 times as frequent as track maintenence, so put the switches where you can access them, including any under table motors, snap relays, etc.
-label and color code your wiring, and use terminal blocks and also label the wires there. It saves a long search.....
-use a separate power supply for non train items such as building lights, switches, etc.
-check lineside clearances using three vehicles:
-an 85 ft long passenger car
-a double stack car or, alternately, a catenary electric with the pantographs up
-the biggest mallet you own or can borrow
-solder until you get tired, including rail and all drops
Bottom line is that you can lie under the layout now, or lie under it continuously, at intervals, from now to forever.....

Here's my, NEVER AGAIN. After thirty years of high-rail, Now it's tube track on carpet with toy trains. High-Rail...Never Again..MHO I love it, no more mess.

Hey Eliot! What a fantastic thread to initiate, inviting just the right kind of interaction and communal education among us all. Congratulations on getting how to participate on a forum exactly right.

Two subjective suggestions, for now, from my experiences:

(1.) This may be very difficult to do....
Less track = more scenery = more sustained interest. "Spagetti Bowls" don't fascinate adults for long. You'll want more; visitors look for more.

(2.) Where possible, do as much of your scenery on baseplates of masonite board (3/8" or 1/4" thick) which affords doing your modeling right in front of you on a table, comfortably, and moving the scene as a whole when completed, to the spot for emplacement.

Screw the finished scene onto the layout, which keeps everything firmly in place and prevents any warping due to using lots of water-based glues on the masonite. When it comes time to make changes to the layout - and you will want them, no matter how convinced you are that everything will never change again - you just unscrew the vignette and move it, with very little - if any - loss of materials/damage to structures.

If you need to change the shape of a scene you intend moving, a little jig-sawing works.

If you look at my website, or at photos I have posted on OGR's Photo Album, all of those scenes are done on baseplates. For example, all of "Louisville" was done this way, as per the client's specific dictate (he thought he might be moving someday,) with entire neighborhoods modeled onto 2'x4' masonite bases, all shaped to fit various spaces, side-by-side, with their seams detailed away, of course.
(I'll send you e-mails of such scenes.)

These are just some suggestions from my own experiences. I would not work w/out these baseplates. Frank

Here's another endorsement for "around the room".

My last three layouts were of that style and they were MUCH more user-friendly than my previous ones.

Andre Ming

Eliot:

All good ideas posted so far. May I add that before you do ANYTHING, create your complete plan for the layout. This will save so much work down the road if you have an excellent plan ready to go.

Good luck with the project.

I don't mind the angle hair. All the wires are accesable for tapping into and for redesign. My secret for success is using about ten different colors of wire and labeling them every so many feet. I also semi-bundle them with nail-in wire clips to the bottom of my table so none hang down.

quote:

Originally posted by pecula00:

quote:

) My wires under the table looked like ten bowls of tri colored angel hair pasta. NEVER again !!

No matter how hard i try and never seem to improve in this area ....

The best layout building advice I received came from a friend of mine, Bob, someone who never was involved with model railroading. That retired Air Force chief master sergeant, who worked in munitions and aircraft armament systems his whole 30 year career, told me:

Plan in how you'll do maintenance.

If you want to prevent the wire spaghetti problem, take the extra time and effort to label your wires every 18 to 36 inches so in six months or six year you can trace things when a fix, improvement or addition is needed.



Properly labeling the wiring is helping me now, some two years after installing my Ross switches. I'm in the process of connecting an MTH canteliever signal so it is triggered by the switch settings. Knowing which wire does what makes all the difference in the world now.

Another step beyond labels is to post a "reminder" where you have complicated wiring issues. For example, on the back of my control panels for my Gargraves # 108 uncoupler/unloader tracks, you'll find a trimmed copy of the wiring illustration from Gargraves. I cut it out, "painted" some white glue on the back of the control panel near one of the controller's wiring harness, slapped on the illustration, then "painted" over it with more white glue. If I ever need to fix or change something in that area, the instructions are handy without being obtrusive. I did the same on the bottom of the layout's plywood near the Starlite Diner's wiring. This costs you next to nothing to do but a little time. (I learned the "painting with glue" trick when I worked in Packing and Crating for a while during one Air Force assignment.)

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Battaglia:
As my layout developed over the years, I find myself less and less interested in the operating accessories and more and more in just watching them run.

Jim --

Funny, that. I won't say that i am just the opposite . . . but i find working accs -- along with working signals, PS2 sound/DCS control, and Miller lights (well, all of two on my small layout) -- even more critical to hold my interest as time goes on.

All of which makes the dodgy quality control on them the more frustrating. I have a Kline box load that was designed to fail: the peep that moves the boxes can't ever have been designed with the structural integrity required. My 45-year-old Lionel Corral car's "shoe" has issues with modern turnouts & is erratic at best. And what is the secret for keeping my new MTH coal loader from tying up its bucket's "cable" around the spool shaft every other time i use it? Lordy i wish that thing would just work.

In fairness, Kline's milk & barrel loaders, MTH's log loader and the operating Kline/Lionel/MTH dump, box & reefer cars work well for me.

So . . . why bother? Well, i'm notta 3RS guy; i'm not skilled enough. On reflection, i think that every time that signal changes/dump car operates/Miller light cycles/coal loads (!), i feel that guests notice that i plumbed that. So it is an affirmation of my planning & work. It is a way for me to get an ooh and aaah for my meager efforts.

90x% of the time no one is there. I still get the same reward as i run the layout, though. "Look, it still works." "Gosh Darn it! That thing forkled again." Ooops, sorry: that only happens every OTHER time on the coal loader.

Finally, on a small layout, "running" means tail-chasing . . . so less interesting. Accs take up the slack. My "mainline" is 29 ft: two 7 ft trains take up half of the trackage.

Of course, i've gotta 300 ft loop planned for the basement rec room when my youngest leaves . . .

-- gary ray

Eliot,
Your list is great! Let me add on to this one:

quote:

3) I put the backdrop on last so I ended up with seams and crazy cloud formations. NEVER again !!

As Passenger Train Collector said, PLAN, PLAN, PLAN! This way your backdrop and layout will combine and make sense. You may want to think about making a rough 3D model of the layout and seeing what sort of backdrop fits. Also, RR Track planning software can help here, especially with the 3D rendition.

Chris
LVHR

Start with the best benchwork you can afford. THan treat it like you were making a nice piece of furniture. I have seen plenty of nice railroads with really crummy benchwork that looks like leftovers from a hobo village. Clean benchwork and strong benchwork will elimate many problems down the road.

Pick a good height for YOU. This makes doing everything so much easier. Also limit your reach to 3 feet or less if possible.

Take your time and do it right the first time. I talked to a master modeler who built fantastic aircraft models and he told me this. Make each small part a model unto itself, do it as well as you can, and when you combine it all together it will really shine.

Add leads to every side of a switch.

great thread,.

quote:

What else do I have to look out for?

Eliot,
In your case, Do not open engine boxes with care as the truck(s) might fall off!

Use color coded wire and,as has been suggested,ample terminal strips which enhance tracing and future wiring changes if necessary[Most Auto and Industrial Fastner suppliers carry 9 colors 18 gauge-to-10 gauge in 50',100' and 500'rolls].

I glue-ballasted my Gargraves flextrack,removed the track screws,filled the wood tie holes and colored them with a mix of black and brown Sharpie[I am now dismantling my 13/16x23 layout upstairs here in the Condo in favor of a Den/ Exercise room]. In '08 I dismantled my 14x28, 5-track high shelf operation at our, now for sale, mountain place--facing up to old age[the Rusty Years]and moving to the Condo.

quote:

Originally posted by crossracer:
.... Make each small part a model unto itself, do it as well as you can, and when you combine it all together it will really shine. .....

I would take that as absolute gospel.

OK Here is my top 10 lesson's learned from 6 HO layouts, one S layout, and now my first O gage layout:

1) Around the room layouts are great for operation and walking with your trains, access is good, but the trade off is less 3-D space for realism.
2) Room refinishing, Ergonomics, Layout Plan, Benchwork, Electric, Lighting, Backdrops, Track, layout wiring, mockups, scenery, Don't skip this order if you do, you will be sorry... you will have to back track and risk ruining your work.
3) No Duck-unders! I'm still missing a clump of hair from the last layout!
4) Ergonomics for the layout - is the first step of planing your layout, its huge. isle width, deck height, reach zones, minimum radii, grades, every compromise you make, will become an aggrivation later on.
5) No Switches in tunnels! If you do, this will always be your derailment point.
6) Plan lots of staging yards, hidden, non-hidden, non stub ended. This will give you the best enjoyment.
7) If your room allows, have space for congragation away from the layout! There are talkers and doers, the two just don't mix. Also keeps the excited crew a place to run around a bit. Have a Railroad video on the background going to entertain the crowd as well.
8) Plan for easy access for an emergency power throw to cut power.
9) After track laying always test ALL locomotives and cars that you will be running to work any derailments. Yes it seems redundant but it works. Check all switches with a track gage, and its point travel.
10) Check the following in all locos and rolling stock with a gage before its added to the fleet: Mass vrs length of car (add NMRA specification here), coupler height, wheel flange width, over all height (add this to your layout ergonomics check list) restrictions, binding wheels.

If your running TMCC than add the following:
11) Add a ground plane
12) TVS and added circuit protection
13) location for good Command base reception.


These have reduced my frustrations, hope this helps... most of all have fun!

quote:

Originally posted by pecula00:

quote:

) My wires under the table looked like ten bowls of tri colored angel hair pasta. NEVER again !!

No matter how hard i try and never seem to improve in this area ....

At least he used three different colors.

Eliot,
Don't forget that avoiding old mistakes will give you plenty of opportunity to discover new ones that can be made.

The fun never ends! I learn something new with every project!

A model railroading magazine's catch phrase once was "Enjoyment with everlasting challenge!" I agree!

Jim

As always, the OGR Forum members are incredibly knowledgeable and willing to lend a hand. The responses I am reading in this thread are the most informative I have ever had on the Forum and I thank you all heartily. Though I have built layouts before and made many mistakes, I have learned enormously from the suggestions on this thread.

Here are scherbear's "issues."

1) After many years of dreaming and "near layout" experiences I have so many things going for me. We have the space and resources to do what we want and, for the first time, I am going to build a layout for me. The visitors will be able to completely circumnavigate the layout with an entry way under a bridge. I want something I will be happy with. Most of all, I have the most incredibly supportive wife. Ginny says, "Build what you want !" I get a Yankee pie for finding her !! Grand slam.

2) I want all of my locomotives (including the Big Boy) to travel anywhere on the layout.

3) I want at least one wide radius curve ( O-99 or better )

4) I bought Al Zamorski's fantastic 34" turntable and I am going to build a steam facility that dominates the layout on a middle island. I'm going to include a large (4-6 stall) roundhouse, coaling, water, and sand towers and multiple ready tracks. A given. Done. No compromises.

5) I want a long passenger station area.

6) I want the entire layout to be highly detailed.

7) Every area of the layout must be accessible for detailing and maintenance.

8) Oh, almost forgot. Table height will be 50" - 58" high.
Yes, high. Very high. I want the trains to run at eye level.
My eye level.
Short visitors will be issued booster stools.
Anyhow, it's harder for visitors to touch the trains when they have to reach
up so high.

Sooooooooooooooooooo . . . . . .

No around the room layout for me.
Initial area for building is 16 x 30 with an adjacent 4 x 6 zone for passenger trains. Ceiling height is 10' with track lighting throughout.

I will post my initial track plan idea ASAP so all of you can criticize it until it is honed to railroad heaven.

Once again . . . so many thanks to all.

My own 'lessons' echo some of what was mentioned here.

Know your 'givens and druthers' which may develop over time. What do you like to do with your layout?

Never ballast again - because I like to try different track configurations. I've tried glue/matte medium that holds it but obviously can't easily be changed or going with it loosely where it spreads all over the place per Murphy's Law.

Pick a theme - "Sodor" helps with scenery, accessories, when assessing things to buy, when playing or following an operating plan, etc. instead of the hodge-podge I've had before...

Add another track - again because of a personal 'druther' that enjoys seeing trains run - adding the equivalent of another loop allows another whole trainset to stretch its legs. Up to four now...

I am tired of these related planning posts and you doing all this planning stuff. Will it never end?

Just start building the dam* thing already. Get some wood and start nailing (preferably your hand to the plywood). I will be dead by the time its done, if it is ever really completed, which I highly doubt. Throw down some track, connect a transformer and DCS, and run one of your trains!-please. You have too many trains sitting in boxes doing nothing, and you refuse to share. Forget the 099 curves, and the round house. Too much money spent on nonsense.

Follow the Nike rule "JUST DO IT" (already) for the sake of my sanity.

Erol

quote:

scherbear57

It is your layout and you build it to suit you. I will offer some suggestions

layout what you think you want on the floor-use tape, cardboard, whatever. see how your ideas fit the room you have.

be sure to layout the turntable and roundhouse 1st, cause you really will be surprised at just how much room they will eat up.

build something that is the height of the table you want-then you can see if it will really work or just kidding yourself. besides that, you will get a stiff neck working under the table as you will not be able to stand or sit to work; and how do you plan to access the table top from the floor out in the middle of table,much less from the side? a stepladder will allow you to reach only so far.

"I built the last layout with very long ( 12-15 foot ) open grid tables that made disassembly impossible." all I can say is that open grid is exactly what you need to build this layout. apparently you built the last incorrectly, I have little trouble moving anything.

I wish you good luck, but I think you will be grippin about this and that soon after construction begins. Oh, i also suggest you use screws so that you can reuse the wood!

Eliot, this is a great thread. I have made the list myself for my next layout. I'm just finishing my fifth layout and I'm still doing things backwards. Putting the curved background in last was a huge mistake. What a pain. Putting my overhead wire system in after I built my landscape, another stupid mistake. My wiring started out great, then I got bored with it and it ended up looking like yours. I'm going to stick to my list next time........I hope. Don

Eliot:

I was glad to see that you are planning a large passenger train terminal area. This will surely be a great feature of your layout.

Attention: Alan/Leavingtracks, can you post a picture of what you have under your layout? I would like to get a better idea of how the wiring is arranged. Thank you.

quote:

Never ballast again - because I like to try different track configurations. I've tried glue/matte medium that holds it but obviously can't easily be changed or going with it loosely where it spreads all over the place per Murphy's Law.

If you use white glue diluted with water as a bonding agent, the ballast can easily be removed by re-wetting it with water and allowing it to soak in.

Matte medium is expensive and water will not soften it after it dries.

Dennis Brennan

I am dismantling a 10 year-old 13/15x23 layout right now and removing the 40/60 glue ballast from Gargraves flex track and Curtis/Ross turnouts. My track was installed on very lightly glued cork over styrofoam. The cork comes up easily via slipping a wide taping knife under it and a majority of the ballast comes off when the cork is peeled away from the ties. Then as Dennis noted I use hot water in the Laundry sink to remove the rest[very careful with the expensive turnouts].

I used matte medium on one layout and unsuccessfully tried to recycle the track---okay for some folks not for me