When building tunnels, how deep into your 'mountain' do you normally take the tunnel supports? I got working on my first tunnel project and I got in such a hurry to build a mountain, that I now find I didn't do my tunnel entrance very well. I need to add/extend it some... not sure exactly how I'm gonna do that either...

Demo:

I'm not real certain exactly what you mean by "tunnel supports", but I'll take a stab at giving you an answer. I think you are talking about the tunnel walls, so I'd suggest building your tunnels so that someone peering into a tunnel portal can see the tunnel walls or sides as far back into the tunnel as he can see.

On my sons layout, he used stacked foam insulation board so the support or tunnel walls, if you will, actually go the entire way through the tunnel on both sides of the track.

On our club layout, we have been starting our tunnels by using geodesic foam spread on plastic screen and then curved into a "U" shape before it hardens. This "U" shape constitutes the tunnel liner. To the walls of the liner we then glue rock molds made of the same geodesic foam. We use India ink washes on the molds to make them appear more rock like. Once the tunnel liner with rock molds is complete and properly positioned onto the layout, we then use cardboard latticework to construct the mountain overtop of the tunnel. Once the cardboard strips are in place, you can either use more of the geodesic foam, plaster soaked paper towels or any of the other scenery techniques common to model railroad mountain building.

Demo, I recollect from some of your past posts that you are kind of starting out in model railroading. I'd strongly suggest you go to your LHS and purchase a book or two on scenery building. That should be able to answer just about any question you have and would be handy to refer to as you progress in building your layout.

Good luck with your tunnels!

^ Oh yeah, I am extremely green! But having fun!! When I get my Polar Express Layout finished I will post pics.

And yeah, it is that entrance into the tunnel, that I realize I didn't take it far enough, so I gotta redo that and get it so the tunnel walls look correct.

I guess it depends on how much weight they will bear. I made mine about six inches deep but I did make inside walls which ran until the tunnel curved and you couldn't see any longer.

--Greg

quote:

Originally posted by juniata guy:
Demo:

I'm not real certain exactly what you mean by "tunnel supports", but I'll take a stab at giving you an answer. I think you are talking about the tunnel walls, so I'd suggest building your tunnels so that someone peering into a tunnel portal can see the tunnel walls or sides as far back into the tunnel as he can see.

On my sons layout, he used stacked foam insulation board so the support or tunnel walls, if you will, actually go the entire way through the tunnel on both sides of the track.

That's basically how I made the tunnels on my layout. I made stacked foam insulation "walls" that are basically the shape of the tunnel. They I topped the walls with a shhet of foam insulation. After that I covered the top and sides with balled up newspaper and masking tape followed by plater cloth and some gypsonite (spelling?) plaster. It looks pretty good and the foam on the inside adds support as well as acting like a tunnel liner.

Since you already have your mountain built it might be a little tougher to do what I suggest.

They make a foam that is 1/4" thick for use under aluminum and vinyl siding. It comes fan folded in 2ft x 4 ft sheets. If you can get hold of a sheet it is very flexible. Cut, bend and fit to the area you need it. Once it is what you want then take it outside and lay it with the inside down on a gravel or stone driveway. You'll love this part. Stomp on it with you feet. That will make it all dented looking in a random pattern. You can now weather/detail it in the style you want. Once done then reinstall it in your tunnel. Instant tunnel liner.

I built my tunnel liner first, making a "U" shaped form of stiff wire mesh. I built up the walls with plaster to look like rock. Then, I spray painted the interior with gray "fleck stone" spray paint to make the plaster look like granite. I put this in place, and built the mountain over it.

^ smd4... Oh! I like the sound of that! Even though I am 3/4's done, I built the thing in such a way that I believe I can lift it off. I am going to try anyway.

I plan on stopping at the hardware tonight anyway, since I need another tube of the styrofoam SM glue. I am going to look for wire mesh and if they don't have that, I will see what they have for thin lath material, to form the walls with. I did buy a tub of pre-mixed mud, that I could use to do the walls over a wire mesh.

I had the idea that I could also use that stuff here and there on the mountain face as filler.

You should buy the DVD called The Black Diamond Railway. If you go to the toy trains on track web site you will find it there. This DVD if made from one of our forum members Rich Battista. It is very detailed in every aspect of building a model railroad including benchwork and his outstanding mountains. Check out his previews on his website. I bought his DVD when it first came out and it is worth every penny.

I used 1 1/2" pink foam for my mountain. I glued stacks of the foam and used a hack saw blade to cut the inside walls of the mountain and painted them dark gray before I glued the top of the mountain on. Once you get it together and look inside the tunnel portals the painted walls look like cut stone, I think the look is just right. Here are a couple of shots during and after so you can see what I am talking about. Good luck!






Paul

Oh yeah, another thing I did, before I started I took spare pieces of track, exactly the same as I have running through my mountain. I traced the outline of those on plywood and cut that out with a jigsaw, so I have a plywood tunnel ceiling running the length of my tunnel. I was supposed to build up walls and then after I had that done, then build the mountain.

But I got in a hurry...

I do have a DVD on building a model RR that I have watched a couple of times, that shows a few different techniques to use. But of course the actual construction is a bit trickier (at least the first go-around) then that DVD made it look!
I am pretty sure I will learn from the things I have done right & wrong on this one.

I appreciate all the suggestions.

Whats the name of the DVD?

It was from TM Video and I think it's called How to Build a Model Railroad. I'm at 'work' so I can't tell you exactly. It's got two parts to it; in the first part, the guy builds a railroad using Fastrack. He demonstrates a lot of techniques.
The 'bonus' shows a guy wearing a nice railroad hat, bandana and striped over-alls, building a layout with Lionel's old steel track.

They are both excellent!

Serow1;
I wish you good luck with a switch inside a tunnel like that.
All my derailments have been on switches. Most of those due to crappy temp non-level layout, but still, A potential problem area.
I will admit my final plan still has 2 in a hidden storage area, but there's not much I can do to avoid them and have the extra storage. I will have access under the scenery, which is better than a tunnel, but not great.

^ Russell, I do not have any switches inside my tunnel, just 036 curves with a 5" straight section in the middle of it. The Polar Express rolls through it perfectly. The through-out of the cars is just about perfect, I would say.



Beginning the tunnel section, after lifting the 'mountain' off.


I bought survey stakes... lathes, to make the tunnel walls. Attached 'em with 3/4" brad nails. The bottom will be anchored later.


Looking into the 'east' tunnel...


Wally helped me.


The Polar Express roaring through the tunnel.


A view of the middle section, from the back. This will not be visible once the mountain is on.


Another 'action' shot of the PE...


I lifted the completed tunnel off and spray painted the inside black.


Another view of tunnel interior. I deliberatley left some areas so the color of the wood would peak through, faintly.


And 3 shots of the trackside 'ballast' of the tunnel interior... of course I don't have any actual ballast. I used a mixture/alternating flat grey, black and red primers.

You might want to consider lining your tunnels all the way through if you think you may be using camera cars at some point. That includes a roof as tunnels were dug/blasted through rock. The liners on longer tunnels should be removable for access to derailed cars and cleaning. We have a few tunnels and will have all of them lined at some point. One of them is over 20 feet long.

^ I hadn't thought about this until you mentioned that, but if I leave the back with that one open section, then I always have access to the tunnel area, in case of a derailment. I could also extend the lath strips across the opening.

Hmmm...


At each opening of the tunnel, there's 3/4" pine boards supporting the roof. I intend to paint those flat grey to try to make them look like concrete supports.


Oh, here's another question:
Wally says that I can use the spray foam insulation on styrofoam SM and that sounds like a heckuva'n idea to me. Especially to fill any cracks or gaps.
What'ya think about that?

Demo, at our Town layout, I built a concrete type wall on one side of a tunnel that is held on with magnets. We can remove it for cleaning and other problems.

Also, for tunnel liners, I have used the cardboard inserts for the two foot curved florescent bulbs. They look like arches.

Demo, what are you going to do with the entrances to the tunnels? Are you going to buy pre-finished portals and glue then into place or are you going to make your own? The reason I ask is because if you are going to buy them then you might want to do it now so you can make sure that the mouth you made is the same size as the portals, it will be easier to tweak the size of the tunnels now then after it is finished. Just a thought.

Paul

^ I think I will try to make my own. Not sure quite how I will do it yet tho'...

I plan on doing something similar to what Eric has done in these videos.
Layout Update #1 - June 10th, 2009 and
Layout Update #2 - Appalachian & Western Railroad - 10/29/09
He has many other interesting videos and a good journal.
The lightweight foam is very forgiving and looks easy to do. You can always heat it up and reshape it.
Dan

Okay, here's my easy answer for the train tunnel entrance; I mixed flat white and flat black modeling paint, to get just the desired grey concrete colour, and painted that on. I believe once I get the mountain roack formed up and trimmed, detailed etc, around those supports, that they will look like pretty credible concrete.

I ran the P.E. through the tunnel, after getting the entrances painted, and man, does that look so much different, just adding that detail! The tunnel now seems so dark, and the lights from the loco and passenger cars looks very realistic, both entering and emerging from the tunnel.

Whoa... after watching Eric Seigel's videos, I feel so 'cheap'...!!!

That is some impressive stuff!!!

Another question about my styrofoam mountain; my buddy Wally suggested using Spray Foam Insulation to fill gaps, cracks etc between the styrofoam SM pieces.

Are there any problems with that?
Has anybody done this?
Is this a good idea?

Here's pics of my mountain roughed in and ready for some painting and detail stuff. It's no longer a tunnel.


A wide shot, when I was just starting to add some spray foam, to hide gaps and seams.


Tunnel opening.


This is the last photo after I finished filling cracks, gaps, seams... I'm hoping to paint these to look like snow banks.

quote:

Originally posted by Demo:
Another question about my styrofoam mountain; my buddy Wally suggested using Spray Foam Insulation to fill gaps, cracks etc between the styrofoam SM pieces.

Are there any problems with that?
Has anybody done this?
Is this a good idea?

Demo, it looks great so far, nice job!! I used regular drywall mud to fill in the cracks and imperfections during the construction just like in the video. I applied small amounts several times and even painted it in between coats to better see the imperfections. It takes time but it is easy to work with and cleans up with water. I would not use that spray foam insulation unless the gap you are filling in is rather large because it expands and will have to be cut which causes it's other cracks and imperfections. Have fun!!

Paul

Demo,

Looks great! What did you use to rough up the edges of the foam board. I have been trying this and not getting results like this. Thanks

T,

Just dig at the edges with a screwdriver, knife or any other thing that you can lay your hands on.

Big T, watch this video series, it will give you tips and the technique for the look your looking for. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiCSW3Pn5gw

Paul

quote:

Originally posted by TheBigT:
Demo,

Looks great! What did you use to rough up the edges of the foam board. I have been trying this and not getting results like this. Thanks

I hate to admit this, but I did it with my soldering iron. Got me a good couple hours exposure to Dioxins and who-knows-what-else, from melting the foam. It does work very well, but I can't say it was the smart thing to do.

I believe using a knife would be a lot smarter.

Serows1 what did you use to create the effect of the stone blocks, on the tunnel face? That looks very nice! I'd love to achieve the same effect. I could probably add that later...

Okay, here is my nearly complete Polar Express layout. I still have to add a bit of snow and minor details like that.

All the buildings in this are those ceramic types that are meant for these christmas diplays; I think they work pretty well here. The vehicles are a mix of ceramic and 1:43 diecast.



Beginning to locate buildings.


Ski Chalet in place.


I carved a 'roadway' up the mountain to the Ski Chalet.



I built roadways using some old roofing tiles; glued them down with white carpenters glue and some weights.



Drilling holes for fence posts. I made a fence with light chain and 1/4" dowels.



Another view of the post-hole operation...


Long angle view of the village.


View from the opposite direction.



Switches for building lights.


Ski Chalet.


Santa's Wonderland. I bought several sets of LED christmas lights, and a large tree to string them on. Those tiny strings of LED lights are amazing!
I also bought 2 sets of LED street lights.
I 'hid' the wiring with black & white hockey tape... what else, eh?



Outdoor rink.


Amy's Tavern.


The Abominable Snowman, holding candy canes, in front of his cave.


Nativity scene in front of church.


And band playing on front of church, as parishioners file in...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Demo,

Great stuff. I did tunnel walls using a Woodlands Scenic HO tunnel liner mold.




You can see where I added height to the mold.


Done in three sections to add depth to the entrance. Some what time consuming because of the O-45 curve.

Rear tunnel portal did not require as much work.



Mike CT

quote:

Originally posted by Demo:
Serows1 what did you use to create the effect of the stone blocks, on the tunnel face? That looks very nice! I'd love to achieve the same effect. I could probably add that later...

Demo, nice job on the layout. It really looks great!! The tunnel portals I bought from a forum sponsor Scenic Express. They come pre-finished, but I painted mine to match the color of the rest of my mountain, all you have to do is glue them in place.

Paul

Demo...you've been holding out on us, right? This is not really your first go at building a layout right? If this is your first layout, I'd say you have a very bright future in this hobby! It looks wonderful!

I recently built a tunnel and added the portals but then realized that I forgot the liner so what I did was use a piece of 1 1/2" pink foam and cut to the size of the tunnel wall. Then I roughed it up and painted it, added folliage. Once I was done decorating it I slid it inside the tunnel on an angle and just propped it up. Since you can't see the ceiling unless you are doing an inspection it looks as though it is part of the entire mountain structure.

My tunnel liners are just a piece of artboard, either painted black or covered with stone paper placed just enough into the opening that the line of site into the tunnel shows a "wall".
As for the tunnels themselves, I still prefer using screen wire layed over verticle foamboard supports that are contoured. I form the mountain with strips of newspaper dipped in plaster of paris placed on the screen form, finishing it off with a final coat of plaster. Perhaps this is the Neanderthal way to build a tunnel but I can easily sculpt, carve and reshape as necessary.

Thanks for the nice comments guys.

Mike CT I cannot see the seams in that. Very nice!

There is really no limit to creativity is there!?

Anyway, for my first effort I am satisfied, yet there is SO MUCH I can see that I can do better next time!

Demo...AWESOME mountain!! I love your use of colors with the touches of snow.

Rick

Really enjoyed this thread with all the great pictures. We need more posts about running trains and building layouts. Keep it up guys!