I was planning to set up a small layout outdoors for the nicer days
(If we ever get some again!) but in a wooded lot there is way to
much debris in spring and even summer.
I thought a SNOWSHED design would help with that situation,
but what about the increased humidity outdoors?

I wouldn't leave any electronics outside overnight, just
run in the dryer times of day.
What kind of humidity would be a cutoff point for operations?
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thank you.

I would think your biggest problem would be oxidation (rust). Gargraves makes a stainless steel track but requires acid-core solder which is a little more of a pain to use.

With engines running and axles producing a little friction/heat I wouldn't think humidity would be an operational concern. It would probably get too uncomfortable for humans before moisture in the air would affect any electrical arcing.

Probably best to make sure you're well grounded, too, though a lightning struck piece would be a great story.

Gary

Look here:

http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve...=962103451#962103451

http://www.donet.com/~paulrace.../o_gauge_outside.htm

This is a website I found a while back that has some good info on garden layouts in O.

I live in Southern California, so humidity, temperature extremes, and frost heave aren't concerns....

I have a permanent outdoor layout and run trains all the time in the backyard. Many of the trains live in a cabinet in the patio. I run Atlas track (nickel-silver) and I've had no problems with rust, oxidation, or anything related to being outside vs. inside other than occasional leaves on the tracks, and the need to clean the tracks more often (and that, I do with a cleaning car that gets pushed ahead of an engine--two or three times around the track and it's clean).

I have a waterfall and flowing stream in close proximity to the track. I have a "drip-mist" sprinkler setup that waters the garden plants daily.

It does rain here: the layout has been partially underwater for short periods of time, and it all survives just fine. Of course the trains stay dry...

I wouldn't worry about the humidity. The electronics will be fine. Keep the track clean and the engines lubed and run 'em. It's great outdoors, and my guess is that you'll be uncomfortable (hot and sweaty) and head inside long before you're anywhere near half way to an operating limit of your trains.



-Randy

I run my O gauge outside on the deck in the summer here on Cape Cod. I run TMCC and DCS. I use MTH real trax, which has been out 24/7 for 3 years, each year it gets a wipe down with a scotch brite pad. It's nice when I am doing yard work. I can also watch the train from the livingroom through the sliding glass doors. I have a box that holds my power supply and TMCC DCS components, and 2 TPC 300's. It's like a wooden suitcase. Go for it, it's fun and easy.

I too, would love to do something outdoors, but I've always been under the impression that UV is the big problem long term, causing the plastic sleepers to breakdown. Not true? Or do folk treat the plastic with some sort of UV protection?
What's the best track to use then?

Rendy:

Nice layout work. Can you contact me off-list? Thanks.

This guy has a nice outdoor setup. 230ft double track layout
http://web.mac.com/hankb/wrr/About.html

It's too HOT............

Thank you all for the links and info!!
I know someday it will be dry and hot which should be just fine for
operations.
I figured on just an oval with Fastrack with O-72 curves.
I just have to throw some nice railroad cinders down for drainage
and I'll be good to go.
As far as the UV exposure, I thought I'd try SPF 30 or higher on the paint
and see if that protects them!!

Several yrs ago I did the outdoor thing but only with reversing trolleys on a single track. Used a fence with posts 6 ft on center to support 1 x 6 flat to run the track. Bumper at ends. U could see the trolley thru the various plantings. At operator end the entire control and startout track was on wagon wheel setup. It was rolled into garage when done and stored vertically against wall. Should do it again!!!!

L

PS track used old Lionel sectional left outside. Did a quick clean with bright boy if it was not used for a week or so. Also used NoOx at track pins. Yo the track did rust over winter (har har...) but could be used with lots of cleanup.

Hi trainloon,
We have one of the RRs referenced in http://www.donet.com/~paulrace.../o_gauge_outside.htm
This is in Tucson, so we don't have the frost-heave problem you would have in PA. Our problem is UV and heat. If you use the Fast-track and leave it in place, you will have plastic break-down -- eventually. Even taking the track up in the fall and replacing it in the spring will eventually degrade the plastic over time. You can spray UV inhibitor, clear, "paint" on the sections as we do for all of our plastic accessories. The brand that is popular here is carried at some Ace Hardware; KRYLON UV-Resistant CLEAR, Acrylic Coating The important thing is that the product clearly states UV resistancy (note: NOT "proof").
Another suggestion I have for you is that you coat every electrical connection with conductive grease and use 12 or 14 guage, landscape grade wire for your track power runs. Landscape wire is UV resistant. We solder every wire splice and then cover with a wire nut filled with conductive grease. If your wire runs will be under ground, then you should use under ground connectors, which render the splice waterproof.
I suggest also that you spray something like WD-40 on the underside of each track section, especially on electrical stuff built-into the Fast track. WD-40 helps to protect the underside from water interference with the electrical flow. We've had some problems with residual water/moisture that were nutralized with WD-40 this way. It is best to do these things during the assembly because having to do it later is a real pain in the arch three joints up.
Your road bed is simple-matic, but be sure you tamp it firm before you lay track as the cinders will otherwise settle and make your track into a miniture rollercoaster.
If you run TMCC or the like, you will probably have weak signal problems as most likely your track area will not have sufficient earth grounding the engine can "see" as does your home. We had to provide earth ground as the open back yard is devoid of any earth ground. We did this in the problem areas with do it yourself, copper, power poles connected with suitable copper wire. Go to our photo thing at:
Flickr
To see Anozira RR and the power pole assembly.
We connected the power pole wires to house ground and runnin' trains became sweet.
Have fun,
Cheers
JB

Anozira Rail Road today

trainloon, I'd be interested in how this works out for you. I've been thinking of doing the same thing. I live in the northern Poconos near Lake Wallenpaupack. If I do try it, I'll post something.
Take care,
Artie

I think Gargraves offers stainless steel track with UV resistant plastic ties.

I remember seeing pics many years ago of a doctor's outdoor layout, I believe in Indiana, that was operated year round. He claimed that his Lionel NYC F-3's worked great for plowing snow!

John

quote:

Originally posted by Anozira:
Anozira Rail Road today

Nice looking layout! With the heat in AZ how are the plastic pieces holding up? Not much heat so far here in NJ but the layout would be under water for the last month or so!

Mike

Serious question...is the humidity outside of a house...different than the humidity inside the house assuming there are no dehumidifiers or humidifiers running in the house???

Gargraves does manufacture stainless steel track having plastic ties. We used a bunch of it. However, due to the heat in Tucson for track exposed to direct sun, the ties bowed upward creating a situation where the center rail's non-normal elevation would raise engine and tender wheels off the outside rails. In addition, after 2 years of exposure, the plastic ties become brittle and snap off the outside rails. We replace all plastic ties with wood ties as the plastic tie sections become unuseable. So, unless Gargraves has modified the formula for their plastic ties -- I would not make that investment. The sun is unforgiving no matter where you live.

Since humidity is a measurement of the amount of water vapor contained in the air, there is no difference between outside or in. Sixty percent humidity is 60%, out or in.

At Anozira RR, everything made of plastic (except the ties) is sprayed with the Krylon UV inhibitor. We spray anything painted also such as autos, little people, etc. This keeps the paint from fading for about 3 years.

when the weather is good (not so often recently) I set up a large loop outside on my deck (16x32). I am using gargraves 3' straights and some large diameter curves (138's, 120's etc.) it takes about 30 minutes or less for setup depending on the layout for the day. I break it down and put it away after the run session, so weather is not a factor. it is lots of fun, go for it.

Regarding humidity you buy one of the digital 'weather stations' with indoor, outdor, up and down trends, humidity, temp. ck eBAY or walmart, target. an old one crapped out its remote but inside its still super. Use it in basement with train and dehumid. Always know the deal and can adjust the dehumid.

If U can find one without the remote it outta be like #12. with remote for outdoor temp $22?

L.

Jump to GGraves website for track info....
Prices are separate from info pages

Wow!!
This turned out to be a great thread!!
I totally forgot about UV damage to the Fastrack!
And warpage! I know molded plastics have stresses that can be released
when the roadbed heats up in sunlight and heat.
Learned that when trying to straighten plastic model parts.
Mild heat-OK. Too much heat-WARPED.

Great tips and photos, too!

You could try the wood tie Gargraves, but soak the ties in wood preservative first. That shouldn't bother the stainless steel rail, although you'll probably have to clean the rail tops off afterwards. Gargraves now sells track pins with pre-soldered wires, which would help with wiring.

Otherwise just use old tinplate track, as suggested above. It's cheap, so you can trash it as it rusts out.

John

Atlas track now has UV resistant plastic ties.

Yes as mentioned Atlas track the stuff I have seen is advertised as being suitable for outdoor use!

I built a new storage room for my trains and junk and plan for a couple of loops around the room on the shelf above the storage area. At the base of the room in one corner I built in a small train exit door. Long term plan is that I want to run the track outside so I can store and stage the trains inside and then run a 1 or 2 track loop around the back yard. My yard slopes down away from the house so I have the track leaving at ground level but have been considering having it stay level around the yard by building up on posts so it clears the brush underneath and makes working on it easier about waist height around the back.
I have considered the Atlas track!!!
Got to set up the track on the hottest day with the rails tight to each other then they can contract on the cooler days will not buckle!

What do you think would be the best and cheapest road bed for this that would last a few years with heavy rain and some snow and freezing in winter?

Other thought would be to make sort of module sections that could drop in place and take out for storage in doors over the winter!

I saw a really nice layout double track around the back yard at a past Seattle Train show and one on the West coast of BC under heavy trees they both seemed to do very well in wet and cold weather conditions for wear on the track and roadbed!

I see that you live in PA so heat might not be as much of a problem for you. Try putting some samples of different types outside and see how they hold up before you spend a lot of money.

John

I have a friend in Southern California near me who operates an outdoor three rail O gauge layout built on stilts with bridges in between some of them. I have run one of my trains on it without any problem. I think the only problem he has had is keeping his dog from knocking over things on the layout.

Ray

kj356:
Sounds like you have a perfect yard in which to build an ourdoor 0. Having a secure building in which to store your trains with a track entry is really great. Saves lots of time in getting the trains running. Having the track level throughout the "layout" is a big plus as setting roadbed to a grade tests your use of a level. Having the roadbed on standoffs does give you nice ground clearance over established plantings, makes working on the roadbed and track MUCH easier, and elevated track outdoors does NOT collect all of the debris a ground level roadbed is subjected to. Another aspect of an elevated roadbed is cooling of the track during summer where the track is exposed to direct sunlight. In sun exposed track situations, air can't move through the track if the track is mounted upon a solid roadbed such as solid wood, for example. At Anozira RR we mounted some track runs (about 100') on solid HDPE matrial. The trackage suffered gross missformation as the HDPE heated also and made the track sections distort into unuseable junk. This track was Gargraves stainless steel set in plastic ties. The ties bowed up raising the center rail so high that anything with an electrical pickup raised the unit off the outside rails.

Having an open ladder roadbed is not only much easier to construct than using solid roadbed materials, but the open ladder facillitates cooling and keeps the track much dryer during rainy periods.

To get aquainted with outdoor 0 construction, go to:

O guage outdoors primer

Which is Paul Race's for Family Garden Trains web site. Paul has gathered an abundant amount of information for outdoor "O" RR construction and operations.

Anozira RR is and elevated, HDPE roadbed system. This material will be nearly service free for decades. Read about it in Family Garden Trains. If you have access a table saw you can cut this stuff to the sizes you need with ease.

Anozira RR's HDPE roadbed is supported by steel fence posts as the stand-offs. We purchased six feet lengths at Lowes and cut them to length for the required distance above the ground plus 18" or so for soil depth. Driving them into the ground is easy and they don't shatter. If they hit a rock, well just cut that post to the needed length and keep going. Keeping them true to plumb is a nack you'll have to learn in the process. How deep you will need to drive the stand-offs to defeat frost heave is something you'll have to check. We don't have that problem in Tucson. After 2 years in service we found that some posts settled a bit and drew the roadbed out of grade. The fix was easy by placing a jack to lift the individual posts back to grade.

Things we learned in the process of building and operating Anozira RR you can bennifit of knowing:
Layout of track route with a garden hose. Keep curves as wide as space will permit - the wider the better. Purchase curved track sections in fixed radius as much as possible. Have them on hand when laying out track route. We bought one each of each radius available and made plywood duplicates to have enough to place end-to-end in the track route planning stage. If landscape plants interfer with this process, then flex-track is indispensible, but more work. However, if your curves are WIDE, then bending the flex-track is MUCH easier. In this case bigger(wider) is better. Bending flex-track really becomes a hasstle with diameters under 0-60 or so. For me anyway. 0-72 is my limit. Any radius less than 36" becomes preset track.

Anozira RR track is Gargraves all 3 rails stainless steel. We have had not one problem with these rails. Ties? Yes, big problem, but never the SS rails. Spacing track sections while laying track. 2 milimeters space at the junction of rail to rail. That gives each track section a milimeter of expansion at each end. However, the track does not expand linear because each rail would have to slip through each and every tie. There is to much friction to do that. What happens instead is that the rails will bow up or move sideways and both. No friction as this action is the path of least resistance.

So now we lay track with rails butt to butt; no gap because it doesn't make any difference. For awhile we simply let the track float on the track ladder roadbed. As the track expanded or contracted, it was free to move -- sideways and up and down. Yes, up and down as expansion does take place in an upward movement especially when the track is screwed down at each end. We only screwed the track at each section end - so the middle of the section moves. We had to screw down the track sections at each splice of section to section because whirlwinds would lift the unsecured track off the roadbed.

Where track section to track section spacing of 2mm becomes necessary is when using flex-track to be formed in radii that requires the screw-bend-screw process. Screws are spaced about every 6" (more or less) to facilitate the bending process. As such the rails are forced to move through the ties in the expansion - contraction process. Even so, the movement is so minute, but does happen. The same for fixed radii sections of close/short radii, but not so much as the track will bow upwards because the fixed radii does not allow for sideways movement.

We do not know what happens with solid rail such as Atlas as we do not use Atlas track. Tried their switches and threw them away. Slowly getting rid of the Gargraves switches also and replacing them with Ross.

Another suggestion in your track path planning is to minimize straight runs. We have found in Anozira RR's only long straight run that the track seems to hump-up (as much as half an inch in the center of a 40" track section) during the heat of a day. All the rest of ARR's track has at least, sweeping curves. These curves predesposes the track to move with the curve. You don't even see it happening. To get an idea of the sweeping curve aspect, see the photos above in this thread or go to Flickr
Also check Anozira RR in Paul Race's article Planning an outside O guage railroad found at: planning an outdoor O

Have fun
Cheers,
JB

Interesting JB on the curves and the expension. A bit of thought will tell us the track expands X amonnt per foot per 10 degree rise in outdoor temp. If a 12 ft straight
humps up a half an inch, it will try to do so with the curved portion. However, IMHO, there is a difference of length to deal with as far as the distortion. So part of the distortion instead of making a hump track out of it, expands to the outside of the curve, opening the joint some. And may even force the inner joint a bit closed?

Hmmm maybe thats what YOU said..!?

L.

With 115 predicted for the weekend? No thanks!

We prefer to run them outside in late October to early April!

Sunday, July 5, my son and family came for a visit. It was a beautiful 75 degrees. Grandson 3 1/2 years old. Granddaughter 1 year 10 months.

Earlier in the day, I took my O27 tubular track and set up a loop-to-loop in the concrete driveway. 50' long straight away with 2 BIG loops at each end.

I figured they'd mess around with it for an hour IF I was lucky.

3 1/2 hours later it was dark and we quit!!!!!!!

It was a great reminder of why I still prefer to have floor layouts with kids around. We spent something like 30 to 45 minutes standing over the track spread-eagle making tunnels with our legs. How the heck could a child want to do something so simple for so long? Don't know, but they smiled and laughed the whole time running back and forth making tunnels waiting for the train to arrive.

Not to mention the 5 gondolas and 2 flat cars carrying whatever they had in mind for them. Animals, dinosaurs, pine-cones, flowers, and grass were popular!

Know what my grandson did the most? I had 3 engines out: a real old cheapo that I wanted to use so I didn't have to worry about anything (but it wouldn't pull the cars up the very slight gradation of the driveway), another older Lionel steamer which could barely pull the cars; and a PS2 F3 which had no trouble. When the kids got here the F3 was on the track. My grandson spotted the other engines, both steamers, and wanted to run them. We spent at least one hour switching from this engine to that engine to that engine, etc. Once he learned how to control the engines with the transformer, well, THAT made it all the better for him!

WE HAD A BLAST!!!!

Maybe my example is a bit different, but the topic was "Running trains outside in the summer" so it a least fits that

Don't have any pictures at the moment.

- walt

L. Larson,
you wrote,

quote:

Hmmm maybe thats what YOU said..!?

I think so. Anyways, the track will expand and contract in relation to heat and cold. The extent of the movement and in what directions is dependent upon several conditions. Knowing that the track will move is important. I have a friend who elected to place his track on the ground in a free ballast. Looked nice and was so realistic. The track floated in the ballast and in short time the track was no longer level. Trains looked like worms undulating along until the humps and valleys became to agrivated to run trains. What was happening was as the track moved up . . . the ballast flowed into the void where the ties had been. Then when the track cooled and fell, it was just a bit higher. So funny. That's R & D and on the job training. :-)

Fellow Tucsonian, Fred Young, see at Fred's solution
used a different approach to ground level trackage.

GG1 4877,
A fellow Arizona operator. I agree. Anozira is shut down too during the hot period of the year. We don't even pull maintenance.

quote:

Originally posted by SPMan:
I have a friend in Southern California near me who operates an outdoor three rail O gauge layout built on stilts with bridges in between some of them. I have run one of my trains on it without any problem. I think the only problem he has had is keeping his dog from knocking over things on the layout.

Ray

Ray:

Can you put me in contact with your friend? I've been looking at doing the same sort of thing.

Thanks.

Greetings, all.
With regard to running O-Ga trains outdoors and to the problem of dirty track and poor electrical connections, I would like to mention a new product that I have developed at my business, Fern Creek Electronics Inc. This new product is an in-train, battery-operated power supply to be used for running locomotives equipped with Lionel TMCC electronics. The product consists of a battery powered DC-to_AC converter that rides in a 40-ft O-Ga boxcar. The boxcar rides just behind the locomotive and is connected to the locomotive by a tether cable. No engine power runs through the rails. There is no necessary connection to house power ( a.k.a. mains power) or to a center rail. TMCC functional features are preserved.
The intent of this product is to make possible the operation of three-rail TMCC engines on dirty track, two-rail track, or in locations that do not have 60 Hertz electrical power. It should be useful for the outdoor layouts mentioned in this thread.
This is a newly developed product. It will be shown for the first time at the upcoming Great Train Expo in Orlando (my home) on July 18 and 19. I will also be at the same show the following weekend at Clearwater, FL.
I have a pdf one-sheet flyer available but I cannot figure just now how to get it attached here. If you are interested, send me an email and I will send you the pdf flyer be return email.
I can be reached tom2@fcelectro.com.

Thanks, tom2, Orlando

Hey Matt:

I tried to get a hold of you on your e-mail listed here on the site, but haven't heard back. I'd be happy to talk to you if you want more info about my setup.

Are you still at mcjackson@earthlink.net?

-Randy

quote:

Originally posted by Randy Owens:
Hey Matt:

I tried to get a hold of you on your e-mail listed here on the site, but haven't heard back. I'd be happy to talk to you if you want more info about my setup.

Are you still at mcjackson@earthlink.net?

-Randy

Yep. That's it.

I'm curious, just how do you prevent the plastic (boxcars, hoppers etc) from melting when exposed to the sun? I've seen warped items on sellers tables due to direct exposure to the sun. This must be a serious issue with outdoor layouts not matter where you may live.

It depends on the plastic. LGB trains are pretty much designed to stay outdoors. Every outdoor O-Gauger I've seen so far parks the trains inside. Lighter colors will fare better outdoors because they reflect the sun instead of trapping the heat. All of that said, I'd opt with parking the equipment inside.

I have a small train shop here in Pa. We do not have much room, but have a small layout inside, ( 4 X 8 ). Outside I fenced in an area roughly 8' X 20', with a 2 ft.high steel open picket fence. We built an 'up & over' large circle, which gives roughly 120 running ft. of track. This layout is up all year long, and weather permitting, operates all year long. The base is built from 1" x 4" pine. I assembled the 120' base, and then coated it with roofing cement. I used Atlas nickel silver track,w/ UV plastic ties. I have 1 only track connection, an old steel AF truss bridge where the 'over / under meets. The Atlas track is screwed to the pine w/ Atlas track screws. I use about a 5 gallon bucket of ballast (fine grit from the lumber yard)a year. I cut up a 55 gal steel drum into 3 pcs. These are laid end to end in one section to make a tunnel. We also park the train in the tunnel for the night. An old Lionel 40 watt transformer sits inside the door, and motive power is an RMT "BEEP" w/ 4 freight cars. The train runs 8 hours a day, Rain or shine, (snow dose shut it down though). The track needs cleaning "ONLY" after a rain. We alternate 2 "BEEPS", Usually lasting a full year, which is "FANTASTIC". We have decorated w/ "trade-ins" and donations from customers. Nothing has ever been stolen. "Life is good". This is our 3rd. year for this layout. "The Old Man".

quote:

Originally posted by Allegheny:
I'm curious, just how do you prevent the plastic (boxcars, hoppers etc) from melting when exposed to the sun? I've seen warped items on sellers tables due to direct exposure to the sun. This must be a serious issue with outdoor layouts not matter where you may live.

This doesn't happen; but they can fade over time if left out in the sun, just like the real ones.

Takes a few minutes to convert each locomotive to battery power. Then you can use 2 rails and not clean them

Anozira RR in Tucson has several plastic buildings of which a few are exposed to direct sunlight all day. We give them a coat of UV resistant, clear, spray paint and that's it. There is not an iota of distortion in any of the items. Running stock is always taken in after a session. When day temp. rises high enough to make being outdoors running trains uncomfortable, then running stops. Day temp. while running never gets hot enough to distort any cars. Boy that would be HOT. So, the problem is never encountered. I am thinking that possibly the distorted cars you have seen were stock that was displayed in a store window, boxed maybe and the sun blasted through the window and really had the time and intensity to build heat. You can think of other possibilities where items can be exposed/subjected to extream heat and suffer distortion.

Here's a short video of a Railking Consolidation I converted to R/C a long time ago. It just shows you can run at prototypical speeds, using code 148 rails, which are mainline size, yet much smaller than 3 rails.

I also had that train out plowing snow in the winter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwEJVowwCVA

I had an Athearn diesel (before I got into O gauge) on the dashboard of my pickup for eight years, 24x7, boiling summers, freezing winters - no melting, no cracking, no fading.