I dunno about this one. Aren't you guys being a little harsh here? What about the young couples with small children? What are they supposed to do? I know that someone will say that if they can't afford a sitter, they should stay home? But I don't think that is the proper attitude either. There ought to be a middle ground somewhere that we all could agree upon. Personally, I think some of the folks that used those motorized wheelchairs are more of a hazzard. The way they drive those things, you'd think there were on a speedway and don't get in their way. I think my biggest concern with the stroller issue is the possibility of some little hands reaching up and pulling stuff down on top of themselves. I know it would never fly but my suggestion would be to widen the aisles a little bit and require the parents to keep the strollers in the middle of the aisle so we could walk around on either side of them.

There is no room for strollers at a train meet with narrow isle. The problem isn't walking arround them, the problem is being hit with them.
I go to the Valley Forge gun show every now and then where there are crowded narrow isles and stroller are allowed. I have been hit twice in the back of the ankle number of times at these shows. With people looking at the tables, you do not notice what's coming up in back of you. Got the feeling that an instead of a polite excuse me to get by I get the feeling they just run into you to get your attention. Anyway, the no stroller rule is a good one, no busted ankle tendons.
Anyone who would think of bringing a stroller down those crowded isles has no consideration of others to begin with.

quote:

Originally posted by Dennis:
This stupid argument about strollers comes up every 6 months. Any child small enough to need a stroller, should not be brought to York, period.
.....
Dennis

People with this type of attitude need to be locked up in a nursing home.
I went to York 6 years ago with my 1 year old son. I just left the stroller outside the hall and carried him in a back pack. He had the best view in the house. This same kid today could teach you guys how to run your Legacy system.

quote:

Originally posted by CHOO-CHOO MIKE:

quote:

Originally posted by Dennis:
This stupid argument about strollers comes up every 6 months. Any child small enough to need a stroller, should not be brought to York, period.
.....
Dennis

People with this type of attitude need to be locked up in a nursing home.
I went to York 6 years ago with my 1 year old son. I just left the stroller outside the hall and carried him in a back pack. He had the best view in the house. This same kid today could teach you guys how to run your Legacy system.

THEN YOU AGREE - NO STROLLERS.

Maybe the altenative shows needed should be:
Camera show.
Stroller show.
Cell phone show.
Then for each show start a discussion group where the merits of combining the shows could be discussed and argued.
No time wasted discussing toy trains - just the important things...

[b]Sure wish I had the problem! York ! No question, the BEST, wish I could attend more often! Maybe I need to move.

Since I'm in So Cal, I don't see being able to afford $1,000+ airfare frequently. What I get to look forward to:

Cal Stewart - Pasadena, This USE TO BE BIG, not anymore! I bet this wouldn't hold a light to some of the local shows in PA.. Yes, it may be the largest west of the Mississippi, but in prospective, how do you rate 100 to 125 tables? MTH and Lionel are usually there but no always committed too. This show would take maybe 1/3 of the Orange Hall, including all the layouts. Took me 1 hour to get threw the whole thing, this past November.

All American Train Show - I DID see SOME O scale, again typically in Anahiem, lots of G scale an HO, do this show then go have lunch, and see a movie.

Great American Train Show - Pretty much same as above.

Local Clubs
TCA - Went to that one and saw all 6 tables.
TTOS - Three in the area, usually as many as 30 tables. Most of the time same stuff every month on the table, noone really interested in selling stuff. More of a social gathering. Table items are typically display.

Railroad Memorbilia Show - Usually find lots of good stuff, very few O scalers attend, so things go cheap.

Now York sure wish I could attend enough to complain! Been there 1 time last year, I walked around in a daze for 3 days, and still didn't get in all the buildings! Just to think that show has more BUILDINGS, than many here have tables!! (No wonder can advertise Biggest West of the Mississippi)

I need to go back to York Soon!!!!!!!

I have held of posting to this thread because as momma used to say... If you don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything...

BUT

As the father of a young child, and an avid model railroader I must say that the attitudes expressed in this thread are the exact reason why I will NOT join the TCA and why I don't care to go to York.

What a narrow sighted view some people have. Wouldn't you think that getting more people into the TCA and into the York show would be a positive thing for the TCA and for the hobby in general? But a rather contrarian view seems to be pervasive throughout the TCA members here. To me the average TCA member seems to be a cranky old introvert who doesn't deal with change well and wants to die in his train room with as many toy trains as possible... Dang everyone else.

IMHO, if the spending demographics in the toy train world were reversed and the young fathers were spending more money than the old guys in motorized wheelchairs then you would probably see strollers allowed and accommodated for.

PS. I would be all in favor of a separate show. Strollers welcome.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jonnyspeed,

quote:

This stupid argument about strollers comes up every 6 months. Any child small enough to need a stroller, should not be brought to York, period.

I agree with Jonnyspeed, as a father of a 14-month old myself, I find this attitude to be absolutely appalling. Let me see, strollers prohibited in the halls because of isle size restrictions that can impact traffic flow & injury to shins and ankles, yet wheelchairs & motorized carts are okay even if they can contribute to the same problem. Granted, handicap rules have to be followed and accomodated, but nonetheless I'm seeing a bit of hypocricy in the no-strollers rule all the same and indicates to me something is broke that needs fixing.

Keep it up to those with the attitudes quoted above. You're doing a great disservice to promoting goodwill and kinship for the TCA, IMHO.

quote:

I agree with Jonnyspeed, as a father of a 14-month old myself, I find this attitude to be absolutely appalling. Let me see, strollers prohibited in the halls because of isle size restrictions that can impact traffic flow & injury to shins and ankles, yet wheelchairs & motorized carts are okay even if they can contribute to the same problem. Granted, handicap rules have to be followed and accomodated, but nonetheless I'm seeing a bit of hypocricy in the no-strollers rule all the same.

I had two boys born and raised while I was a member of the Eastern Division of the TCA. I managed to bring my kids to the York Train Show without using a stroller in the trading halls. They did ride in strollers on the grounds.
Some of those years were before the stroller ban was enacted. I witnessed several near misses where one of us big, ole fat train collectors almost fell on a child. I wouldn't have brought my kids inside in strollers for that reason, plus I didn't see where they would have enjoyed being surrounded by a sea of rear-ends. (some might even consider to be endangering the welfare of a child)The level of isle congestion is not anywhere near as bad as it was back then, but it still isn't great ether.
The kids play area didn't exist, so the TCA is doing things to make the show more kid friendly (and there is the TCA kids club too).

I find this whole argument to be almost ridiculous. I cannot believe that in a time when we are attempting to get new people into the "funnel" to build a long term base of participants in our wonderful hobby, that we are debating rules about allowing the gereral public and CHILDREN into a train show.

I truly hope this is a mis-understanding. If this is the official position of the TCA then I agree with Jonnyspeed about not joining.

quote:

Why does everyone seem to want to change what doesn't need changing? If you don't like it, PLEASE stay home.

I'd have to agree. There are 359 other days a year for everybody else to do whatever they want to do.

quote:

Originally posted by pennsyk4:
There is no room for strollers at a train meet with narrow isle. The problem isn't walking arround them, the problem is being hit with them.
I go to the Valley Forge gun show every now and then where there are crowded narrow isles and stroller are allowed. I have been hit twice in the back of the ankle number of times at these shows. With people looking at the tables, you do not notice what's coming up in back of you. Got the feeling that an instead of a polite excuse me to get by I get the feeling they just run into you to get your attention. Anyway, the no stroller rule is a good one, no busted ankle tendons.
Anyone who would think of bringing a stroller down those crowded isles has no consideration of others to begin with.

PensyK4,

With all due respect, if this is happening at any kind of public show, then the show organizers should reconsider the oriention of the tables and aisles for their event.

It is not the fault of the people with strollers that aisles are narrow. This is inherently dangerous for numerous reasons (medical, fire, evacuation, etc.) and should be addressed at a professional level for the enjoyment of EVERYONE!

Even those who have the audacity to bring young childern in strollers to a train show

quote:

Originally posted by John Korling:

quote:

This stupid argument about strollers comes up every 6 months. Any child small enough to need a stroller, should not be brought to York, period.

I agree with Jonnyspeed, as a father of a 14-month old myself, I find this attitude to be absolutely appalling. Let me see, strollers prohibited in the halls because of isle size restrictions that can impact traffic flow & injury to shins and ankles, yet wheelchairs & motorized carts are okay even if they can contribute to the same problem. Granted, handicap rules have to be followed and accomodated, but nonetheless I'm seeing a bit of hypocricy in the no-strollers rule all the same and indicates to me something is broke that needs fixing.

Keep it up to those with the attitudes quoted above. You're doing a great disservice to promoting goodwill and kinship for the TCA, IMHO.

jonnyspeed and John,
Please don't take the comments of a few to be the voice of the TCA. As I stated earlier; TCA National is hard at work to encourage kids into the hobby, and has created the [URL=TCA Kids Club]http://www.tcamembers.org/kids/index.htm[/URL]. Many divisions are embracing that mindset. At the METCA Division we are incorporating many kid activities to draw young families to our doors. For the kids we will have; train puzzles that were specially created for METCA, train book readings by our very own kid’s conductor, and locomotive drag races! These are all free activities for the kids.

I'm sure the rules were put in place for good reasons. I also think there is room for compromise. There seems to be plenty of room at York to widen the aisles to accommodate strollers. That being said however, there is also room for the parents and grandparents to stop driving their strollers like steam rollers too. I have been run over by those new double wides more times than I can count.

Obviously, some things need to repeated again, and again, and again. The TCA has nothing to do with the York show. It is sponsored and run by the Eastern Division of TCA. As I mentioned earlier, according to the information I have, the no stroller rule is because of insurance restrictions and the concern for little ones reaching up and pulling down displays on top of themselves. Now, I am going to play "Devil's Advocate" for a moment. Let's say that they do allow strollers. And here you are with your Little Eggbert in the stroller, going down the aisles of the Orange Hall. You stop to look at something or chat with someone and while you are distracted, Eggbert reaches up and pulls down an expensive engine or a display on himself. Your child is injured. It's not the vendor's fault. It's not Eastern Div's fault. It's not TCA's fault. But your child has been injured and you want "justice". So you sue, even though it's your inattentiveness that was the contributing factor in this fiasco.
They can't ban wheelchairs, walkers or motorized scooters. It's against federal law. They have to accommodate the handicapped.
The best possible recommendation is to widen the aisles to be able to accommodate the strollers. But, in order to do this, they would need more buildings to spread out the dealers and vendors.
And Pennsyk4 had a good point, too. What do you do about the ignorant clods that try to run up the back of your ankles with the strollers and either give you a mousy weak "excuse me" or look at you like it's your fault for being there?
We can beat this topic to death and we will not come up with a solution that would please every one.
And for those few of you who say this is the reason you don't join the TCA, I repeat: The TCA's got nothing to do with this!
OK. I'll get off my soap box now.

Fellow York guys, do not get in an uproar as most of those who complain do not even go to York or can not go again. I love the show and have no problem with the rules. They are for good reasons. All the years I have been going, I have never heard one (1) person complain that attended. Let the moaners stay home while we enjoy the greatest show on the planet.

Well said Marty!
Brad

RE: "strollers".

I can't imagine how thrilled the little ones in strollers are looking at cardboard boxes under tables.

- walt

quote:

No time wasted discussing toy trains - just the important things...

lol bigo!

quote:

Originally posted by walt rapp:
RE: "strollers".

I can't imagine how thrilled the little ones in strollers are looking at cardboard boxes under tables.

- walt

Or how happy a parent would be lifting a walking young kid up to see over thousands of tables. I once took my 3 year-old Grandson to a Greenberg show, and left in an hour when my arms gave out. Joe

There are places that adults go without children in strollers:
Fitness Centers, Golf Courses, Churches, Stadiums, etc......all of which arguably merit the introduction of young people.

I just can't comprehend why some of you guys find it unacceptable that adult hobbiests want to have a meet where they can have a couple of days for themselves.

I've raised three children since joining TCA, two of them, the boys, have been to York.....but at an age when they were old enough to walk around and ask questions,and responsible enough not to damage anything. I believe that to be considerate of my fellow TCA members. And, by the way, they weren't that crazy about it, at least until my son Tommy went at the age of 15. That was the first time he actually had an appreciation for what the trains mean to adult hobbiests.

I guess the thing I've never understood from a business perspective is why the dealers would want a show that blocks all but the select group of members to attend. I know that forumites will support other forumites in sponsership, but the fact remains that most of the train buying public will be barred from attending.

The advantage of the other shows is anyone can attend by paying admission. Given the choice, wouldn't a manufacturer want to attend the show with the most of the marketplace? Also, I conjecture that more of the model train buying population are casual and thus might buy trains but it might not be worth finding sponsorship and obtaining membership to a club.

If the goal is to bring new people into the industry, then the best bet seems to be reaching the most non club members. I don't want to stir anything up here, just point out a different viewpoint.

quote:

Originally posted by EmpireBuilderDave:
I guess the thing I've never understood from a business perspective is why the dealers would want a show that blocks all but the select group of members to attend. I know that forumites will support other forumites in sponsership, but the fact remains that most of the train buying public will be barred from attending.

The advantage of the other shows is anyone can attend by paying admission. Given the choice, wouldn't a manufacturer want to attend the show with the most of the marketplace? Also, I conjecture that more of the model train buying population are casual and thus might buy trains but it might not be worth finding sponsorship and obtaining membership to a club.

If the goal is to bring new people into the industry, then the best bet seems to be reaching the most non club members. I don't want to stir anything up here, just point out a different viewpoint.

For the hobbyists it is a hobby, for the dealers and manufacturers/importers, it is an industry. I think that there has to be a national event which has a private component for the hobbyists and a public trade show for the industry. Unfortunately, there's no national club willing to step up to the plate and make it happen.