Hi all,

I also posted this in the Real Trains forum, but I thought I would try my luck here as well. With the news release today from Atlas O concerning their entry into the California Zephyr market, I was hoping someone could help me build my train.

Looks like throughout the years the CZ had different looks, however, some things stayed the same. For example, Atlas O is offering 10/6 sleepers and Dome Chairs in this first release. From what I could find, a typical CZ train was composed of 2-3 10/6 sleepers, and 3 Dome Chairs. Atlas O is making 2 cars per road, I like the CB&Q. So would I need to buy a third Dome Chair or a third sleeper in a different road? Would a CZ train out of Chicago have cars from WP or D&RGW in them?

Anyone else excited about this set?

Thanks,
Mike

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BNSF Mike,

I think the typical Zephyr was a mix of cars owned by all the roads, so to be prototypical you should mix and match.

There is a lot of info at http://calzephyr.railfan.net/

I would be excited by the set if I had O-72 curves to run it on!

Though I wonder how many people will want the coaches and sleepers right away without a baggage car for the front or (especially) a dome observation car for the end.

Mike,

From The Story of the California Zephyr, the consist was the following:
baggage car
CZ-22, Women's and Children Vista-Dome Coach
CZ-21, Conductor's Vista-Dome Coach
CZ-20, standard Vista-Dome coach
Vista-Dome buffet-lounge
CZ-14, 10-6 sleeper
CZ-15, 10-6 sleeper
dining car
CZ-12, 16-section sleeper
CZ-11, 16-section transcontinental sleeper
CZ-10, lounge-observation Vista-Dome

At the start there were two CB&Q trains, two WP trains and one D&RGW train and one mixed. But later it got all mixed up. And different cars were also added.

I am really jazzed about the CA Zephyr cars. I was only able to get 4 K-line Zephyr cars and no engines. This time I am a little more ready but unfortunately I work for the State of California and our ever shrinking paycheck.

Mike, I consider this to be a milestone for O gauge passenger equipment because Atlas has said:

"Atlas O is going into the passenger business BIG TIME. As its first introductions, Atlas O is proud to introduce cars from the famous California Zephyr."

Although 3rd Rail is doing a few accurate streamlined passenger trains, the rest will be generic.

Atlas has stated that they intend to accurately represent the cars they are going to do. The won't be as generic as the other manufacturers' cars have been in the past.

If they do the early '50's Super Chief, it will have the 60' RPO, the 72' Baggage, and the 80'cars that made up the rest of the train.


With regard to the CZ, yes I am very excited. I have a nice D&RGW Alco PA that has been looking for a CZ consist for over 10 years. I have the original Lionel 15" aluminum cars that came with it, but they never looked right with the PA.

With regard to your question, the trains ran a consist of mixed owners' equipment. The same train ran through from Chicago to San Francisco. It would have had equipment from all the railroads that supplied equipment. I would assume the Pennsy car would have been transferred from one of their trains to the CZ as a run through.

quote:

Though I wonder how many people will want the coaches and sleepers right away without a baggage car for the front or (especially) a dome observation car for the end.

I know what you mean but the flip side is:
1. The lag time to make up a complete train will make the purchase easier.
2. It is the only way to get an accurate CZ in 3 rail. For two rail you
could buy the Key Imports set, but that is probably at least $500 a car
and I assume I'm low.

Also, you had to do the same thing for 3rd Rails heavyweights. First came the coaches, then the Pullmans, then the head end cars and the diner and observation are yet to come.

quote:

At the start there were two CB&Q trains, two WP trains and one D&RGW train and one mixed. But later it got all mixed up. And different cars were also added.

I kind of remember reading it was that way at first, but thought that it wasn't too long before that phase ended.

On alternate days a 10-6 sleeper was forwarded from Chicago to New York City on the Pennsylania Railroads train No. 2, The Pennsylvania Limited. The cars three cars in this pool were the Silver Rapids, Silver Surf and Silver Glacier.

Gee

At least the PRR car did not have to change stations in Chcago.....if the PRR car went through on the PRR.

But sometimes th PRR trough sleeper got onto, er, enemy territory....the Central. Why?

quote:

Originally posted by DominicMazoch:
At least the PRR car did not have to change stations in Chcago.....if the PRR car went through on the PRR.

But sometimes th PRR trough sleeper got onto, er, enemy territory....the Central. Why?

Because the Zephyr sleeper made trip east on alternate days either on the Pennsy or NYC.

But why did the Central have their own car to send west? Odd to have an enemy car in your tran.

quote:

Originally posted by marker:
...
2. It is the only way to get an accurate CZ in 3 rail. For two rail you
could buy the Key Imports set, but that is probably at least $500 a car
and I assume I'm low.
...

Way way low. They will be over $1K each.

The Pennsylvania owned Silver Rapids outright. NYC leased the cars noted above from the CB&Q/DRGW/WP pool for transcontinental service. I have been told/read that from time to time Pennsy or NYC cars did travel in the company of the CZ to Oakland but I have never seen any pictures or formal ratification of that.

Richard

Uhmm could mix a few in for this consist!

Great information here.

So, lets hear what your plan of attack is on this announcement.

Are you buying one of everything, just the road you like, or mix and match?

I think I am in for the 4 CB&Q cars as well as one each of the WP.

How about you?

quote:

Way way low. They will be over $1K each.

I was actually going to put $800, but that would have also been low.

For some reason I have a problem when some are complaining about $150 passenger cars, bringing up $1000 passenger cars.

Is there really a large market for a $150 passenger car?? For less than the price of two Atlas cars I get 6 Williams cars that don't look that much different when running on a layout. NOT a slam on one brand or another.....just shock that there is a market large enough to pay for the tooling at $150 per car....or is it that at that price they don't need to sell the quantity Bachman/Williams does?? If you got the cash...happy for you....but my recent Williams purchase was a big part of my train budget!

Dave,

In short, Yes. Remember, this is quality, not quantity. A CZ release is something many collectors and operators have been waiting for.

Street price from AM Hobbies and other retailers will be lower.

Don't get me wrong. The fact Atlas can make $150 cars and sell enough to make a profit says a lot for our hobby. I am an ex-HO'er and I am use to the days of $8 Athrean SL cars! The Williams will do for me....but if the CZ is your thing...more power to ya! Thanks!

I have the original KLine 21 " aluminum passenger cars - they were about $125.00 each I believe - retail. The 4 pac was $499.00. The 2 packs retailed for $250.00 so $150.00, 21" scale and highly detailed passenger cars are not out of the question considering it is about 7 years later and these are new molds. Atlas also seems to be sriving for even greater detail than the K-Line cars. I might add that the the 15" cars K-Line passenger cars were around $105.00 retail.

Williams are ok - but more toy orientated. I have a set of Williams Burlington heavy weights which I like...but they are short [compressed], lack details, etc.

Anyway - I really like my K Line Zephyr cars and have been on the hunt for a couple of more but they tend to be rare and expensive...

I am very excited that Atlas is considering doing these and may have to have a mixed lot!

I now have to wonder if Lionel / Kline will even consider doing these again - especially if Atlas gets them out soon.

Interesting stuff for sure!

quote:

The Pennsylvania owned Silver Rapids outright. NYC leased the cars noted above from the CB&Q/DRGW/WP pool for transcontinental service. I have been told/read that from time to time Pennsy or NYC cars did travel in the company of the CZ to Oakland but I have never seen any pictures or formal ratification of that.

In the PRR timetable, the running time from NY to Oakland/SanFrancisco including switching in Chicaco is shown as 74 hrs. The Transcontinental sleeper was carried Westbound on the Pennsylvania Limited and Eastbound on the Admiral when on the PRR. Seven cars were required for the daily service Silver Rapids and 6 other Silver series 10-6's most likely from the WP, D&RGW and CB&Q. The NYC and PRR operated the Chicago - New York Service jointly , running every other day on the these roads. When on NYC rails, the Transcontinental Sleeper was carried in the Lakeshore Limited.

Most likely when one of these seven cars was out for maintenance and repair, a 10-6 from the WP, D&RGW or CB&Q filled in. Scheduling or maintenance issues could put the Silver Rapids out of Sync so there were occasions when it arrived and departed the next day from Grand Central Terminal. NYC had quite a few 10-6 Budds . These were named in the Valley Series. I have not seen any photos of these cars in the CZ however, one would wonder about the possibility that the transcontinental sleeper might have had scheduling or maintenance problems, requiring use of an alternate NYC or PRR car to fill in.

From what I have read in several different sources, the PRR carried only one Calfornia Zephyr sleepers on the Pennsylvania Limited eastward and again one CZ sleepers westward on the Admiral which was scheduled between the Broadway and Pennsylvania Limited. The California Zephyr service on the Pennsy was usually covered by one of the 3 cars identified in my prior post.

quote:

Originally posted by Yog-Sothoth:
......I would be excited by the set if I had O-72 curves to run it on......

I'd be excited if I had a monster train room that could accomodate a consist of these cars! Also, for 21" cars, 0-72 curves wouldn't be enough for any kind of decent look.

quote:

From what I have read in several different sources, the PRR carried only one Calfornia Zephyr sleepers on the Pennsylvania Limited eastward and again one CZ sleepers westward on the Admiral which was scheduled between the Broadway and Pennsylvania Limited. The California Zephyr service on the Pennsy was usually covered by one of the 3 cars identified in my prior post.

Happy Rails to you
Charlie


TCA, TTOS
PRRT&HS, N&WHS

In their publication, Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Painting and Letterring schemes , the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society shows a timetable for the Transcontinental Services from April 1950 . The CZ service is listed as Westbound on the Pennsylvania Limited Train no 1 departing Pennsylvania Station NY at 5:45 PM and Eastbound on the Admiral Train no 70 arriving at Pennsylvania Station NY at 10:45 AM . Service was every other day from/to New York on the PRR. On the skipped days, the service was via the NYC. Silver Rapids and six !0-6's in the Silver series probably including the two cars you mentioned covered the daily service as each of the seven cars would take about a week to make the roundtrip transcontinental run. Service from New York City was daily. Following this schedule and using the seven Silver series cars, Silver Rapids would at times arrive and depart from Grand Central Terminal.

quote:

Also, for 21" cars, 0-72 curves wouldn't be enough for any kind of decent look.

Yah - it doesn't look great - click below to see what 21 " cars look like on 072 and 081...

http://lizardattitude.homestea...iTuDe_Ogauge_10.html

quote:

Originally posted by BNSF Mike:
Great information here.

So, lets hear what your plan of attack is on this announcement.

Are you buying one of everything, just the road you like, or mix and match?

I think I am in for the 4 CB&Q cars as well as one each of the WP.

How about you?

I'm going to be pre-ordering these cars as well to run behind my MTH CB&Q E-8's. I'm still working on my plan of attack similar to Mike's comments.

What is everybody else doing in terms of mix and match?

I will run these behind a Rio Grande Alco PA ABA. I'm leaning towards 3 domes and 3 sleepers, one of each roadname. Then waiting for a baggage car and observation car to complete the set. A dining car would be nice too. Hopefully Atlas will not take too long to offer these other cars.

Anyone comment what the DRG Zephyr is supposed to look like. I haven't decided the battle plan as yet.

rat

Rat,
If you mean what cars did the D&RGW use after the demise of the CZ, the Rio Grande Zephyr consisted of

Silver Banquet - Diner
Silver Sky - Dome Observation
Silver Pony, Mustang, Bronco, Colt - Dome chair
Silver Shop - Dome Buffet (protecting Silver Banquet)
Silver Aspen, Pine - chair cars (originally 16-section sleepers rebuilt in the 1960s)
1231 - Pullman-Standard Baggage Combine

Pulled by F9a, 1 or 2 F7b's
Alco PB converted to steam generator car
Actual consist depended upon seasonal traffic

Terry

6 car set doesn't sound so painful.

thanks

rat

take it back..I need 4 domes too? I may need an addition on my house.for the straights.

rat

Here's something that I'd like more information on. Within the Dome Chair Car body style, there were three different types of interior. The CZ ran with a Women's and Children's Car that contained a special reserved section with an access door under the dome for women and children only. These cars carried the following names:

WP - Silver Dollar
WP - Silver Feather
CBQ - Silver Bridle
CBQ - Silver Lodge
CBQ - Silver Lariat
DRGW - Silver Bronco

The second interior style is the Conductor's Office car, which carried an office for the conductor. These cars carried the following names:

WP - Silver Palace
CBQ - Silver Ranch
CBQ - Silver Rifle
DRGW - Silver Colt
DRGW - Silver Mustang

The third interior style contains the standard seating plan with no conductor's office and no women's and children's section. These cars carried the following names:

WP - Silver Sage
WP - Silver Schooner
WP - Silver Scout
WP - Silver Thistle
CBQ - Silver Saddle
CBQ - Silver Stirrup
DRGW - Silver Pony

The Dome Dormitory-Buffet-Lounge car was in an entirely different body style that Atlas has not offered yet. These cars carried the following names:

WP - Silver Chalet
WP - Silver Hostel
CBQ - Silver Club
CBQ - Silver Lounge
CBQ - Silver Roundup
DRGW - Silver Shop

To accurately model a CZ consist from the early days of the train, you need one car from each of the four groups listed. It's obvious that Atlas will offer correct Dome-Lounge cars at some point in the future, but will they offer the different interiors for the three types of Dome-Chair cars? Looking at their first round of offerings, all cars except Silver Pony are the Dome (Women's and Children's) style. Missing entirely are the cars from the conductor's office series. If this is going to be the only run of Dome Chair cars, then it' not possible to build an "as delivered" CZ consist.

Just the PRR 10-6 for me. I like to fun a fantasy Pennsy train with the Golden State Pullman, the L&N Pullman and whatever other off-road painted PRR sleepers I can find.

quote:

Originally posted by LIRR Steamer:

quote:

From what I have read in several different sources, the PRR carried only one Calfornia Zephyr sleepers on the Pennsylvania Limited eastward and again one CZ sleepers westward on the Admiral which was scheduled between the Broadway and Pennsylvania Limited. The California Zephyr service on the Pennsy was usually covered by one of the 3 cars identified in my prior post.

Happy Rails to you
Charlie


TCA, TTOS
PRRT&HS, N&WHS

In their publication, Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Painting and Letterring schemes , the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society shows a timetable for the Transcontinental Services from April 1950 . The CZ service is listed as Westbound on the Pennsylvania Limited Train no 1 departing Pennsylvania Station NY at 5:45 PM and Eastbound on the Admiral Train no 70 arriving at Pennsylvania Station NY at 10:45 AM . Service was every other day from/to New York on the PRR. On the skipped days, the service was via the NYC. Silver Rapids and six !0-6's in the Silver series probably including the two cars you mentioned covered the daily service as each of the seven cars would take about a week to make the roundtrip transcontinental run. Service from New York City was daily. Following this schedule and using the seven Silver series cars, Silver Rapids would at times arrive and depart from Grand Central Terminal.

So did the NYC have zephyr cars like PRR?

All the california zephyr cars were DRG&W, WP & CBQ except for the one car SILVER RAPIDS which was PRR contribution to the train.

The california zephyr was unique in many respects. It was the first passenger train to carry dome cars. It was run by a consortium of three railraods. All long distance train being run by a single railroad up until that time.

quote:

Originally posted by pennsyk4:
All the california zephyr cars were DRG&W, WP & CBQ except for the one car SILVER RAPIDS which was PRR contribution to the train.

The california zephyr was unique in many respects. It was the first passenger train to carry dome cars. It was run by a consortium of three railraods. All long distance train being run by a single railroad up until that time.

I recently watched a PBS program out of the Denver PBS station on the California Zephyr. It was great!!! It covered the history of the route and the consortium of the 3 railroads. The make-up of the Zephyr, the car names and the amenities that went with traveling the CZ were also explained. Included interviews with everyone from the "zephyrettes", engineers, to the former CEO of the WP who made the decision to drop the WP out of the agreement which spelled the demise of the CZ. Great photography along the route. Also included the start of the revitalized CZ through AMTRAK. Great discussion of the passenger vs. freight economics and the role of government in railroads.

Check your local PBS stations and see if this is scheduled for your area. It was really interesting, not your usual "for public comsumption" watered down train TV.

Want to travel on the CZ cars? Here's a link to train tour - three CZ and one PRR car. Travel LA to Santa Fe in December on the end of the Southwest Chief. I know the Chief doesn't go to Santa Fe anymore! Cars will leave the SW Chief route at Lamy and the Santa Fe Southern - small private line- will take cars to Santa Fe.

We were in Santa Fe last year at exactly this time in Dec. and it is absolutely gorgeous - all lit up and decorated for Christmas. Lots of concerts, events etc,

So if you love the winter in the Southwest, enjoy art and galleries, enjoy riding classic trains and have the $$ to spend, this would be a great trip.

http://www.trainsunlimitedtour...e-santa-fe-2009.html

Back in 1968, I visited relatives and took the CZ from Oakland to Portola. I recall street running through the streets of Oakland, that there were only a few people in the vista dome (where we sat) and it was hot inside. But, I spent my time watching the scenery go by (it was a day trip for us) and specifically recall the amazing views.

Best,

Mark A. Hoffman

I am still very excited about these cars. I know I have plenty of time before they arrive, but I really think Atlas will not disappoint here.

The K-Line cars are the most popular, non-brass, 21" cars that CZ fans purchased. We all know they go for crazy prices. I noticed on eBay a seller is listing 9 cars, plus the baggage. Will be interesting to see how they end up, maybe the Atlas O announcement will cool some of the bidders off.

Any predictions out there?

K-Line 21" CZ cars on eBay

Mike

Er, Many passenger trains were run by more than one railroad:

EMPIRE BUILDER
GOLDEN STATE
NYC-FL trains
CRESCENT
NYC-Canada Cities
Portland OR-Seattle WA pool service

What is interesting is when Lionel came out with the 15' AL cars, they did have WP F3 units. the Lionel "script" on the cars is based on the CB&Q lettering. Why they did not combine the two with CZ lettering is beyond me.

With the most recent GGD release and seeing the incredible quality in Aluminum now, it shows that this is going to be fun ride for those who like scale passenger cars.

quote:

So did the NYC have zephyr cars like PRR?

Patrick

The NYC did not have any 10-6 Budd sleepers owned but lettered for the train as did the PRR, ie Silver Rapids. 10-6's from the WP. the DRG&W and the CB&Q together with Silver Rapids would have run through for the daily transcontinental service to Grand Central on alternate days. NYC had 10-6's from Budd which could have been used to protect the schedule for bad order cars in the pool on the New York end. Most likely the overnight stay would be sufficient to make the repairs. I have not seen photos of NYC cars on this train.

The CZ probably only ran with a consist completely of one road on the very few first runs. Maintenance no doubt got in the way of keeping the consist all one road name very quickly.

The cars were run within the Scenic LTD behind steam prior to the CZ going into operation.

The women's & children's secton was discontinued fairly early I think. I don't recall it being there when I rode in '62 (we were seated in the Silver Dollar). They tried to seat us in a sleeper that had been converted into a flat top coach. No way - I put up a fit. "I wanna ride in a dome car!!!" It may have been in '56.

In '56 we had a steam helper over the Rockies.

Thanks Mom for taking me up into the dome to watch the stars as we crossed the desert west of Salt Lake City. What a memory. That - and the fresh carnations in a silver vase on the table in the buffet car and the diner plus many more wonderful snippets of those trips in my mind (like riding the Aerotrain).

I don't think there was any difference in the window pattern from the outside on the cars with the conductor's office. The window layout was of a great concern - that is why there were no duplex sleepers. They wanted the train to be one smooth line. But it is correct - it seems there would normally be the Silver Palace, Sage, Ranch, Rifle, Colt or Mustang in the consist with the conductor's office (at least for most of the life of the train) and those cars are NOT in the list from Atlas. I have an acquaintance who was a Brakeman (and his wife a Zephyette) - I'll have to ask them about that.

This is probably the best on-line source of the CZ. The best book is Portrait of a Silver Lady. The other CZ books leave a LOT to be desired. My Library has every book pertaining to the CZ (and WP) - including a copy of the documents that were evidence used at the CA PUC hearing for taking the train off by the WP.

The trip from the launching pad at the ferry terminal out of Oakland was via 3'rd Street. The WP station in Oakland still stands between Broadway and Washington though the track were removed about 10 years ago after the WP was gobbled up by the SP.

I have the cars on order. I probably will regret not ordering the Atlas WP F units. I have the Lionel PWC versions. In this economy, it is hard enough to justify purchasing the cars when I have all the Lionel cars produced.