Hello all

In a way this is more of a generic question and its something I’ve thought about asking before but just to explain what spawned this, I was just viewing some of the new videos Lionel has up on their site and in its Vision video about some of the new trains it has coming, it presents a list for some of the great features they will have which for the steam units at the end mentions O-72 curves and even has the announcer saying that with the tone like it was some type of feature that was just as great as the others, or at least that’s the way I herd it.

Now for more of the generic part of this question, I really don’t understand why so many trains are built to run on less and less of a radius curves as they rise in features, detail and more over, cost.

Why is this?

Why is it that a train for $200 to $400 dollars can be built so that it can go through O-31 or O-36 curves but then minute they get up into the higher range that goes by the waist side as it would seem to me that a larger minimum radius limit is a limitation not an advantage.

To me doesn’t this then just then reduce the market that these more expensive trains to make can be sold to and used by?

And not only does it remove the ones that have layouts that only have the smaller curves but then even the ones who do have more room and so have those larger curves must have some areas that can’t be O-72 so who would spend $1,200 or $2,000 dollars for a train that can only run on say 50% to 75% of their layout?

For me it would seem that it would be more of a great new feature to have these more detailed trains capable of running on even smaller curves then before so that they can then be enjoyed by more and used on more layouts and in more areas of a layout.

I guess that some may say well O-27 to O-36 is not prototypical real train scale curves but as you can run any O-27 train on a O-72 curve it’s not like that limits you to only that lower radius.

And I will say that I could see why a train such as the 0-8-8-0 or 2-10-20-2 in Lionel video couldn’t be made to do that but for just one example of more what I’m talking about is like a few of the MTH RailKing Mountains that run on O-31 that when they get up into the Premier line jumps up to O-54.

At this point I’m guessing that maybe one reason might be that as these trains are typically a little bit more bigger and are maybe more detailed or numbered in their wheels, that to truly represent that in the better detail that is expected with this price range of trains, that these changes somehow don’t allow this?

But I mean are they really that much bigger that this is it? I mean does that on or two inches really make that much of a difference? And I have plenty of three wheeled trucked tenders so that can't be the problem.

In the end I guess though that’s is what I’m proposing to these guys is if any great new features were to be perused, that it would be to still make it that way but allow it to run on the lesser curves.

At any rate I just though I would rant about this a bit as I have a layout that while it is large enough in the shear mileage sense to run one of these trains its all O-31 curves and I’m just feeling a little left out in the cold.

Thanks

Well WBF, you have already answered some of your questions. Like you said, O72 radius is a sign of prototypical modeling. In this sense, it can be thought of as a feature. In real railroading, I don't even think the equivalent of 072 exists (correct me if im wrong), let alone 031. Another reason for increase of radius in proportion to the increase of price is, again like you said, beacause of the increase in size, detail, # of wheels, etc. If something like the 2-10-10-2 could negotiate 031 curves, it wouldn't clear the motors of switches and you would need a half foot of clearance around every curve. Lionel also has to assume that layouts mostly consisting of smaller curves is either low budget or oriented to younger children, who probably have little interest in spending $2000 dollars of allowence on a single engine. Bottom line, scale locomotives are meant for scale curves. I suggest you investigate the Lionmaster line from Lionel if you want brute steam power to go around an 031 curve.

I would suggest that you take a field trip to your local O gauge store and compare the semi-scale vs. scale offerings. The semi-scale are much smaller... often times have much smaller wheels which let them negotiate tighter radius curves. The tighter the curves you want a model to negotiate the more compromises from scale you will have to have. Let's take a 4-6-4 Hudson as an example of a mid sized steamer. Semi-scale models will be 20-21" long. A scale sized model will be 24-25" long or about 4" longer. 4" equals 16 scale feet... big difference. Think about HO models for a minute. The general thought is to keep minumum radius gereater than 30" on the mainline to make it look good and run well. 30" radius in HO would be about 60" radius in O which equals O-120 curves. They are advertising O-72, because that has become the defacto min radius standard for large scale models over the last couple decades. Just because a model will negotiate O-72 doesn't mean it will look good doing it. Have you ever seen a scale Bigboy running on O-72? Yuk! I wouldn't run one on anything less than O-120. I have a friend who is building a SEMI-SCALE layout with min. O-100 curves. Everything looks better on wider curves :-)

Anyways, sorry to be so long winded... go to the shop and compare some examples. I think you will be interested to see the differences. Enjoy.

072 is really very tight for most scale locomotives. O80-088 or larger is better and 0120 is really nice if you can get it.

To put it into perspective 0480 would represent the tighest yard curve in the realworld while branchline track would be in the range of 0720. Mainlines might squeeze down to 01200 - through the mountains.

Point being that none of will likely see prototype curves on our layout, but if you are looking for large locomotives to run on 0 scale track 072 is considered a feature because it takes quite a bit of model engineering for a large locomotive to negotiate even that.

The above answers all correctly explain that the SCALE part of the model is what keeps the larger radius desirable. But the question seems to be why was that a benefit when many have tighter radius curves. I think the real answer is that in a fine scale model the tolerances and clearances are much tighter. This is what ends up causing larger curves. As was noted in an example of two smaller locomotives, one of which was a more scale version, the required lateral movements and spaces between the wheels are the limiting factors. Luckily th manufacturers are still producing both versions.

From the standpoint of those of us who operate on smaller diameters, O-72 is clearly a limitation rather than a feature. However if you compare this to what a two rail loco would require, or worse what a scaled down version of the prototype would require, being able to get down to O-72 would be a plus.

Frankly I cannot imagine what aa scaled down version of the Virginian 2-10-10-2 would require. I am amazed that 3rd rail is apparently getting it to work on O-72. However I suspect that it will look about as realistic on O-72 as a F unit looks on O-31.

The reason a scale model is more expensive than a smaller non-scale model is related both to the size of the market and the requirement for accurate size and details. If you want to run scale equipment any longer than an F7 with 15" cars behind it, you really need O-120 or greater (opinion). My outer loop is O-144, and some large 4-8-4s have problems with that. I find the 21" K-Lines look silly (again, opinion) on O-120, so I restrict them to the outer loop. The difference between some detail and a lot of detail can be thousands of dollars per locomotive.

Again, different tastes for different people, but O gauge does allow someone to operate on very tight curves. The whole reason for HO, S, N and Z was to allow people to run more realistic trains in smaller places. If you enjoy more realistic trains than space in this gauge is an issue to run O scale. If you are not as concerned about that, which is an entirely valid way to enjoy O gauge then yes the large locomotives are limiting and 072 might be a detraction.

I've opted for O scale and enjoy it. It's just the way I enjoy the hobby and don't expect anyone else too totally agree with me. 072 becomes a feature when I can run a scale locomotive like this:



While not nearly a "new" product, this 1989 Williams scale Challenger has some pretty extreme swing on the front pilot to negotiate 072 curves. In fact - so much so that it actually sawed off one of the trees in the back corner of the layout. The scale and the mass is very worth the engineering that went into making this swing such a tight radius.

If I were limited to 031 curves, I'd be running very short trains. Just because my Williams 18" locomotives can negotiate an 031, doesn't necessarily mean I would would do that.

What makes this gauge unique is that there are some many options and no one way is right.

quote:

Originally posted by Nicholas Anthony D'Alessandro:
Well WBF, you have already answered some of your questions. Like you said, O72 radius is a sign of prototypical modeling. In this sense, it can be thought of as a feature. In real railroading, I don't even think the equivalent of O-72 exists (correct me if im wrong), let alone 031.

Yes but as I said, having a train that can run on lesser than O-72 curves isn't like it "restricts" you some how from running it on O-72 curves or anything else prototypical for that matter so I really don't see the its closer prototypical as a logical answer as if it were O-31 that doesn't stop you in that one sense from doing a more prototypical layout if that is what you wish.

quote:

Originally posted by Nicholas Anthony D'Alessandro:Another reason for increase of radius in proportion to the increase of price is, again like you said, beacause of the increase in size, detail, # of wheels, etc. If something like the 2-10-10-2 could negotiate O-31 curves, it wouldn't clear the motors of switches and you would need a half foot of clearance around every curve.

Yeah like I said I can understand about things like those trains or BigBoys or something like that but those are really more less of the norm in as far as what I was really talking about and perhaps those were bad examples for me to use and btw as far as I know of (except for the recent MTH BigBoy offering) not even available any other way probably for those very reasons, which is why I gave the one about those MTH units

But for the majority of the other trains that they do make in a lower radius version and that are just a hair in scale respect bigger, I don’t understand how that little bit more would do that if somehow they were able to design the trucks to handle it. And btw I think as far as switches go, I’m guessing as those aren’t really the same as a curve, that a lot of people are probably using the less then the minimum radius switches with those unless as you said the train has some extra more then normal over hang such as those examples I gave.

As well I can say that the distance between the switch blocks of my O-72 switches and the rails and my O-31 switches and the rails are the same anyway, its not like the O-31 is 1 inch away and the O-72 is 1-1/2 so if it can navigate a O-72 it shouldn’t be that much more with a O-31 and I do get how the radius would make it a little tighter and possibly in some cases be a problem but there is always limits to many various degrees with any setup even in O-31 so why make that reason you don’t make it capable to run O-31 so it could be used in that case if those conditions don't happen to exist.

quote:

Originally posted by Nicholas Anthony D'Alessandro:Lionel also has to assume that layouts mostly consisting of smaller curves is either low budget or oriented to younger children, who probably have little interest in spending $2000 dollars of allowence on a single engine. Bottom line, scale locomotives are meant for scale curves. I suggest you investigate the Lionmaster line from Lionel if you want brute steam power to go around an 031 curve.

Actually that is that case now I think in some part not due to that is doesn't exist but that it can’t exists.

In other words let’s say that someone who is well off guy gets a starter set for Christmas and gets hooked and has the money and would be interest doing that very thing but he just happens to live in a place that there just isn’t the room for it, well its not that he wouldn’t do it but as a result of this limitation there’s no way he can. Then that money is gone.

Or lets say that that some guy has a big house and spends the money for a great big O-72 layout but he also has a nice lake house or cabin that he an his family like to spend time at and would like to have a setup there too so that he can bring that $2,000 train up there to enjoy, especially as its so fancy because it cost so much more, but there’s only room for a O-42 layout.

Well tough luck guy, that $2,000 engine don’t run on no O-42 track but the $350.00 one does so you can bring that but that one that you paid so much more for can’t so that ones gonna have to stay home and collect dust.

Personally to me even if that market may be small, that if it wouldn’t cost any more to make it and wouldn’t have any ill effect to any of the prototypically guys, that to restrict those trains to any possible market even if it isn’t that big is just cutting off your nose to spite your face talk.

That’s at least my take on it anyway.

This is my take on this:

Atlas announced a few months ago that they were going to offer scale passenger cars and not just any cars but California Zephyr cars. Being a Western Pacific fan, it is natural for me to be interested with an offering related with the WP R.R.

Anyway, the cars are the full scale length, 21 inches long. The bad part is that the cars are too big for me to operate on my future layout. I will have one loop with a minimum curve of O-60 and the outer loop will have both O-72 and O-84 curves. Even though I could operate the cars on the outer loop, I have seen pictures of K-line's 21 inch cars on O-72 curve and there is too much over hang. Also my layout will be 10' by 14' so an eleven to thirteen car train will look ridiculous.

I will have a dedicated loop with wider radius curves so I can operate larger scale locomotives. Also, I will have O-60 curves as my smallest curves so I can operate most non-articulated locomotives and Lionel and MTH's scale cars that are 18 or 19 inches long. Even though these cars aren't the full scale length, they would still look good behind scale locomotives. This is why Lionel and MTH offer these cars, for people who don't have enough space for larger radius curves.

I do think that any large engine with a minimum curve of O-72 is quite an accomplishment. Having a nearly 3-foot long Big Boy negotiate a 6-foot curve is quite amazing. I've never been interested in owning articulated locomotives anyway, but I still enjoy watching them on large club layouts.

So the way I see it is to just buy scale locomotives that are smaller like northerns, mountains, mikados, etc.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Colin,

WBF,
That is the same as asking why can't I pull my 36 foot fifth wheel with my Nissan pick up. Some things were made for certain uses. If you want a Big Locomotive to go around 031 or 042 curves, THAT is what Lionel makes the LionMaster line of locomotives for. The LionMaster articulateds are double articulated like most HO articulateds(except Brass). The $1,500-2,000 Scale locomotives are properly articulated, with the rear engine set rigid to the boiler, as it should be. I have a large collection of BOTH LionMaster and Scale locomotives, I wouldn't want the scale ones to be double articulated, that is why I bought them, for the greater detail and realism.

Why should any locomootive be able to run on any track, that certainly isn't/wasn't the case on the real railroads, especially with the articulateds. The prototype had operating restrictions on many types of locomotives, for many different reasons, rigid wheelbase length just being one, axle loading, height and width were others, plus I'm sure even more. BTW, axle loading is why the EMD E series, and Alco PA/PB series had A-1-A trucks instead of C-type trucks, only 2 powered axles, in each 3 axle truck, the idler axlle was just to lower the axle loading.

As has been said already, if you want a Big Boy to go around an 031, get a LionMaster, it will look funny on 031 curves though. My Christmas Tree, Carpet & Western (CTC&W reporting marks) has 054 curves on the outside loop, with 042 curves with 054 transitions on the second loop in. I typically ran a LionMaster Challenger(#3980 ) pulling 18" K Line passenger cars on the outside loop. I would then run a freight behind the LionMaster Big Boy in the opposite direction on the second loop. Even with the tracks spaced at 5 1/2" between center rails and 054 and 042 curves, the clearence between the passenger cars hanging into the curve, and the Big Boy's cab swinging out, the clearnce is so CLOSE that I wouldn't want to get even SCALE sized fingers in between them.

How many guys are REALLY going to take a $2,000 locomotive with them, even if they do have a layout at the lake house?

Doug