I'm interested and excited about the new Lionel Classics trains that Lionel is going to produce in the future. But, I haven't been into O guage trains for very long, so I have to confess my knowledge of Lionel post war trains is pretty limited. I'd like to learn more about post war trains. I don't have the disposable income to buy all the Lionel classics, so I'd like to learn about post war trains so I can pick and choose the ones to purchase based on the history and the pros and cons of the different models. Also, if you know of some good books or websites about post war trains, please post the info. I have found this website:

http://www.postwarlionel.com/

I started this thread in the hopes that folks who are knowledgeable about Lionel post war trains can post their thoughts on what post war trains they like or dislike, the good and bad points of the different models, and historical significance. If your main reason for getting a Lionel Classic is beacuse you had a similar one as a kid, that's good to know, too.

I also hope people are going to keep on topic and just talk about post war trains. There are already enough topics about made in China or U.S.A., new vs. old, mechanical e-unit vs. electronic e-unit, Lionel vs. MTH vs. Williams, etc.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

There have been a fair number of books and price guides written about Lionel trains. Many can be purchased inexpensively on Ebay, or may be available through your local Library.

"All Aboard" by Ron Hollander covers the company itself
"Lionel, A Collectors Guide and History, Volume II" covers postwar.

The above two books are not price guides.
Greenberg books published numerous editions of their price guides. Some of them have detailed articles on various items.

You can also get a DVD with digital images of entire series of postwar catalogs. I haven't purchased one yet, but the reviews have been great, and their digitalization of Toy Trains Magazine, which I do own, is very good.

PostWar trains are classic in their own right...

1. Simple electronics
2. Very reliable
3. Easy to fix
4. Their graphics were good for their era
5. You got what you paid for...less expensive trains were more cheaply made

I have a warm spot in my heart for them...and cherish the ones I have...but, for me, I've moved on to the more modern stuff.

C.W. Burfle

Thanks for the info. I wasn't sure if the price guides would provide much information on the trains other than prices. The dvd on post war catalogs sounds interesting. That might give me some history as well as an idea of how Lionel marketed the trains at the time, top of the line or entry level, etc.

quote:

Thanks for the info. I wasn't sure if the price guides would provide much information on the trains other than prices. The dvd on post war catalogs sounds interesting. That might give me some history as well as an idea of how Lionel marketed the trains at the time, top of the line or entry level, etc.

Price guides are generally in two formats. There are pocket guides that only list the item and the price. I was refering to the large format price guides that contain articles on the trains, and often detailed descriptions. Articles come and go between editions, so I keep all my old ones. I have only glanced at the current large format price guides, published by Warman's, but they seem to have a lot of data.

C.W. -- thanks for the mention!

trestrainfan -- Here's the link to the HSL digital archive products including the Lionel Consumer Catalog Digital Archive 1945 - 1969: www.hslinc.com. Please let me know if you have any questions regarding any of these products.

Thank you.

I found Postwar books by David Doyle to be very informative. My favorite is the "Standard catalog of Lionel trains 1945-1969".
Rob

In addition the the "Lionel Consumer Catalog Digital Archive 1945-1969" and David Doyle's "Standard Catalog of Lionel Trains 1945-1969", I'd also recommend TM Books & Video's DVD "A Century of Lionel Trains".

Andy

As Peter Condro said, a big part of postwar Lionel's appeal is its simplicity. The motors and E-units took a bit of maintenance, but it was doable by anyone reasonably handy; you didn't have to be an electronics expert.

Regarding which ones to buy (either originals or remakes), I think you should let your personal taste guide you. If you like a particular style of steamer or the colors of a diesel roadname, go for it; don't worry about its history or whether it was a low- or high-end piece. Most of the postwar equipment ran well; as for the exceptions, I suspect Lionel won't be reissuing them, and if they do, you can bet the mechanisms will be upgraded.

That said, here's my take on postwar Lionel locomotives:

STEAM
Starter: 2-4-2 (including Scout)
Low midrange: 2-6-2 and 2-6-4 (e.g. 2026, 2037, 2025/2035/675)
Midrange: 0-4-0 switcher (1656 with bell, 1615/1625 without)
High midrange: 4-6-4 junior Hudson in NYC (2046/2056/646) and Santa Fe (2055, 2065/665) styles; 6-8-6 Pennsy turbine (2020/671/681/682)
High-end: 2-8-4 Berkshire (726/736); 4-8-4 N&W J (746); scale-length Hudson (773)

The only real clinkers were the Scout and some of the other starter locs.

Smoke and whistle were standard from the junior Hudson on up. Magne-Traction was standard on most steamers from 1950 on (except 1952 when Lionel couldn't get the magnets due to the Korean war). The 2-6-2 and 2-6-4 were available with various combinations of smoke, whistle, and/or Magne-Traction (the 2035 and 2037 had all three).

DIESEL
Starter: GE 44-ton center cabs; later Alco FA cab units and EMD NW2 switchers
Low midrange: EMD GP7 and GP9 road switchers
High midrange: Earlier Alco FA cab units and EMD NW2 switchers
High-end: FM Train Master road switchers; EMD F3 cab units

Those I have called "high midrange" have a reputation for being exceptionally good runners.

Horn was standard on all but "starter" class (some of those had a horn) and the high-quality NW2 (some had a bell, most were silent). Magne-Traction was standard on most diesels from 1950 (the NW2 had it unadvertised in 1949).

ELECTRIC
Starter: 520 boxcab
Midrange: New Haven EP5
High-end: Pennsy GG1

Horn was standard on the EP5 and GG1. Both had Magne-Traction except for the first GG1, #2332, which was seriously underpowered with only one motor and no traction aid.

Note that according to Lionel the remakes will have both Magne-Traction and traction tires. No postwar models had the latter until the mid-1960s when tires replaced M-T on all but the high-end units.

There are exceptions to just about everything I've said (e.g. there were a couple of Geeps made without horns -- PRR and C&O, at least).

And of course, all this is one man's opinion...although pretty well informed by having been a child and teenager obsessed with Lionel trains in those magic postwar years.

Let us know if you have more-specific questions. Sometimes those of us who have a lot of miscellaneous knowledge aren't sure which bits of it would be of interest to a newcomer.

Forgot to mention this important general idea:

As Lionel fell on hard times, they began cheapening just about everything they made. The trend started in the mid-1950s and accelerated in the late '50s and early '60s. (In 1964-66 there was an attempt at face-saving with the remake of the 773 and other good old stuff, but the quality for the most part still wasn't there.)

Paradoxically, some of the later items -- including many cheaply made ones -- are much more sought after by collectors than many of the good early pieces. This is because the later stuff was made in smaller quantities (I also think the bright colors, which followed real railroad practice of the time, appeal to collectors).

If you're buying remakes, none of this will matter. But if you're buying originals and want good runners, many locomotives from the 1947-1955 era (particularly steamers) are currently available at bargain prices -- less than they would cost today, allowing for inflation. (Caveat: buy from a seller you trust, or get the opinion of an unbiased third party. This applies even when you can see and handle the goods; it applies in spades if you're ordering used equipment by mail.)

quote:

Originally posted by trestrainfan:
I'm interested and excited about the new Lionel Classics trains that Lionel is going to produce in the future. But, I haven't been into O guage trains for very long, so I have to confess my knowledge of Lionel post war trains is pretty limited. I'd like to learn more about post war trains. I don't have the disposable income to buy all the Lionel classics, so I'd like to learn about post war trains so I can pick and choose the ones to purchase based on the history and the pros and cons of the different models. Also, if you know of some good books or websites about post war trains, please post the info. I have found this website:

Almost everything I run is postwar. As far as income goes, postwar isn't necessarily more expensive than other eras. I haven't spent more than $100 on an engine yet, and rarely spend more than $40 for a freight car.

If you decide to hunt down some of the cheaper freight cars, here's a little trick about the catalog numbers.

The first digit either identifies the car as an operating car (3), a car with a coil coupler (2) or a magnetic coupler (6).

The second digit tells you how detailed the car is. A 0 is a stripped down model up to a 6, which is the best detailed. Most cars were made 0 to 4.

The third digit seems to just differentiate between two similar models

The fourth digit tells what type of car it is:

0
1
2 gondolas
3
4 boxcars
5 tank cars
6 hoppers
7 cabooses
8
9

The digits that aren't labeled are either flatcars or not one specific car type.


None of this is set in stone, but generally it is true.

J White

Postwar was my first love, although now I concentrate on Marx and prewar.

Like others have said, postwar is reliable, reasonably easy to work on, and inexpensive. If you're mainly interested in buying trains to run, prices are dropping. (Prices of the pristine collectible stuff is holding steady or rising, but you don't buy those trains to run.)

The mistake that I made starting out was that I bought everything in sight that was cheap. That's not a good approach. If you can't figure out what you'd do with it, then it's not a bargain, even if it's cheap. So have something in mind when you buy something.

The great thing about postwar is that you can spend pretty much as little or as much as you want. It doesn't have to be an expensive hobby anymore.

Wow!

Thanks to all of you for your great replies. Plenty of good information.

In particular, thank you Tony for the in-depth run down on the basic quality of the post war engines. That's exactly what I was looking for!

I'm going to follow up on some of the other suggestions and pick up some of the other media to learn more about these critters. Learning about something new (new to me - even if they are 50 years old) is half the fun.

The dvd with the catalogs will be interesting to read as much for the art work as for the train info. It's almost a unique style of art. John, I actually googled to find your web site after C.W. mentioned the dvd, but before you posted. It wasn't easy. I tried several search terms before I found an O guage watch article about the dvd with a link to your website. Thanks for posting it to make it easier for anyone else reading this topic.

Thanks for the info on the David Doyle books. I've thought about purchasing some of them in the past, but they had slipped off the radar. I might also get the one on post war sets.

The Century of Lionel trains dvd sounds interesting as well.

Thanks for the primer on the post war freight car numbering system. Right now I'm concentrating on the motive power, but I may start thinking about the cars in the future.

Thanks for the tips about purchasing original post war equipment, but as I mentioned at the start, I think I'll go for some of the new Lionel Classics.

Just some initial thought based on the info you all have provided and my favorite trains. I think I'll get a GG1 (one of my favorite engines) and a FM Trainmaster (sounds like fun with dual pullmor motors) this year. Some other locomotives I like are Berkshires and F3's (need to read up on all the flags Lionel made), so I hope they produce them in the future, and I don't have a Hudson, so I hope they make the 773.

The only additional question I have is do all post war engines and cars run on O-31 curves? I'm wondering about the larger locomotives like the Trainmaster and the 773 Hudson.

Thanks.

Try to focus on things you like...The Postwar F-3's and Postwar GG-1's are a nice solid place to start!!! And there is so much written on them that you can become an expert in weeks!!! Ron Blume, TCA73-5903.

quote:

The only additional question I have is do all post war engines and cars run on O-31 curves? I'm wondering about the larger locomotives like the Trainmaster and the 773 Hudson.

Both the 773 and trainmaster will run on 031 curves, but with lots of overhang. If you want to run a 773, I'd go with at least one loop of wider curves. You can get "0" gauge track in wider sizes, such as 042, and 072. There may be an 054 too, not certain. The 054 track may be 027 profile (lighter ties, different height track).

If you like postwar style trains, you really should go ahead and order the David Doyle Standard Catalog Of Lionel Trains: 1945-1969 (Paperback). It is very cheap on Amazon.com via their "used books", and is also a good deal new.

To research the F3s...Lionel's Postwar F3's (Toy Train Reference Series) is a good buy.

Greenberg's Guide to Lionel Trains 1945-1969: Motive Power & Rolling Stock (Greenberg's Guide to Lionel Trains, 1945-1969) is another good source for general info.

You might as well order some of the new Lionel "reissues". The preorder prices several dealers are offering can't be beat for buying Lionel versions of these Lionel classics. Here's one link.
http://www.jimstrainshop.com/xcart/customer/home.php?ca...901234da7eb686c8178b

The reissue Lionel GG1 and FM are a good value.

Williams seems to have good values on reproduction steam engines.

quote:

Originally posted by C W Burfle:

quote:

The only additional question I have is do all post war engines and cars run on O-31 curves? I'm wondering about the larger locomotives like the Trainmaster and the 773 Hudson.

Both the 773 and trainmaster will run on 031 curves, but with lots of overhang. If you want to run a 773, I'd go with at least one loop of wider curves. You can get "0" gauge track in wider sizes, such as 042, and 072. There may be an 054 too, not certain. The 054 track may be 027 profile (lighter ties, different height track).

K-Line made 042 "O" Gauge profile curves. Lionel's 042 is 027 profile.
Lionel's early 054 curves were 027 profile, while current 054 crrves are "O" profile. K-Line made both "O" and "027" profile 054 curves. For the large Hudsons and Train Masters, I recommend 054 curves at least.

Just a thought or two, the MPC era of Lionel trains from the early seventies to the nineties used a lot of the old Lionel dies, E units and motors are almost identical, and the higher end locos, like the FM's and GG-1's are a bit less expensive. Rolling stock is very colorful, and the F-3 locos came in roadnames only dreamed about during postwar production. Prices are generally lower, and if you like to run your collection, there are locos that weren't in existence in the postwar era, like SD40's and U36 locos. There are collectors guides that are out of print but very available on the used market.

Thanks, RR for the link to Jim's Train Shop. He has the lowest prices I have seen on the Lionel Classics (although there is going to be a shipping charge). I've only ordered from him once before (a Christmas car, I don't really do much else from MTH), but everyone on the forum raves about him. I didn't see any info about preordering on his site, so I sent him an email. I received a phone call a few hours later - about 10:00 p.m. east coast time! He must have found my number from my earlier order about a year ago. I preordered the Tuscan GG1 and the Virginian FM.

Thanks for the info on the minimum curves for postwar locomotives. Coincidentally, I found my old Williams catalog last night. It list 031 for the FM, but 042 for the 773. I currently use Fastrack, and my minimum curve is 036, but I have traditional O trains good to 031. So, I may have to rethink getting the 773 (assuming it comes out in the next couple of years), and get the 2056 instead so I don't need to worry about larger track. Has anyone run the 773 on Fastrack 036 curves?

Any thoughts on the 2056 versus the 773?

If I go for the 2056, I'm not sure if I would want the set, or just try and get the locomotive. Has anyone heard of any dealers breaking up the sets yet?

I also ordered the dvd with the Lionel postwar catalogs and the David Doyle books on postwar trains and sets (from half.com remaindered new books at a great discount), so I'll have some fun reading about this segment of the hobby.

The Lionel 773 ran on Super O, which was also O-36. Like the man said, lots of overhang. It's a big engine, being scale in size and will dwarf the other postwar steamers.

John

trestrainfan,

Thanks for your order! I understand your frustration regarding the search. The common search terms (Lionel, catalog, archive, etc.) are all over the place on the web. If someone can include the four search terms of "Lionel, catalog, digital, and archive" it should end up on page one of the search results. This is a classic catch-22! Someone reading this thread already knows how to get to the web-site directly!

I hope you enjoy the product!

quote:

Any thoughts on the 2056 versus the 773?

I risk being blasphemous, and write than in my experience, the 2056 (2046) will run better on your 036 curves. I have a 1964 version of Lionel's 773 hudson. As I previously wrote, the 773 overhangs something awfull on 031. It would be slightly better on 036, but probably not much. Perhaps it's my particular sample, but as I recall, it didn't run all that well. Berkshires and small hudsons like the 2046/2056 run much better, and look more realistic going around tight curves. They are a good match for tradional sized Lionel rolling stock like 6464 boxcars and aluminum passenger cars.
On the other hand, they don't look right to me when pulling Lionel's Standard "O" cars (the ones from Pola). Some folks claim that this is the exact reason that the Standard "O" cars didn't catch on when they were originally introduced in the early 1970's.
If you are looking for great running engines, and don't mind going under scale (sometimes smaller is better, that way the train doesn't dwarf the layout), you may like some of the 027 pieces like 2023 style diesels and 2037 locos. They run extremely well, and look good with 2400 series passenger cars, and 6454 sized boxcars.

Thanks C.W. Burfle and John23 for the input on the 773 and the 2056. All my trains are traditional O size, so you both make a good point about relative size of the locomotives. Not only do I need to be concerned about the minimum curve, but also about how the locomotives look in relation to my other cars. Sounds like the 2056 is a better match.

I wonder if the Lionel Classics reissues have smoke? The description and the picture in the catalog show smoke, but there is no mention of a puffing smoke unit in the locomotive features.

This is a very good thread. I wish we could save it to the archives.