As the topic line reads, what is the difference? Thanks so much!

"Standard O" is a term Lionel made up to distinguish scale-size cars from their traditional line of smaller-than-scale equipment. Most of the cars Lionel labels Standard O are scale size, with the exception of a few very large modern cars that are a bit undersized (some of the double stacks, maybe others). Newer Standard O cars are highly detailed; some of the older ones have molded-in grab irons and such, more like traditional cars. As far as I know, only Lionel uses the term "Standard O."

Actuall, you've asked a more complex question than maybe you first asked. As mentioned above, Standard 0 is a Lionel term for the relative scale of the trains they have made which vary from something like 1:64 (S scale or 0-27) to about 1:56. This compromise was made to be able to run the trains in small spaces. Consider that the smallest typical diameter of track in HO is 36" while the 027 track is 27" in diameter for a train that is nearly twice the size.

Traditionally full or scale 0 refers to 1/4" = 1'-0" or 1:48 scale. However, even with this rationalle, the track would be the equivalent of 5' in width. It seems to be a compromise that most modelers accept in this scale. In the post war period, Lionel only made one scale 0 locomotive, the very collectible scale Hudson.

In the 1950's there was a movement that resulted in the production of 17/64" = 1'-0" scale trains which closely model the 4'-8 1/2" distance between the tracks. That did not last long, but you can still find some of this used from time to time. A 17/64" locomotive placed next to an equivalent 1/4" locomotive will appear to be larger.

Currently their is also a small segment of modelers who model "Proto 48" which is 1:48 scale trains that are run on slightly less wide track. There is not much commercially available, so these modelers are a hardy bunch.

Thanks for the info. I was pretty sure one was bigger than the other, but I wasn't sure which.

Just curious, does anyone every run a mixed consist of O and Standard O, or would that look weird. I have never seen a standard O car (I don't think). I am pretty sure all of mine are O...there are some cars listed over on the bay that I am watching and they are listed as standard O and I just wondered if they would go with my current trains.

Thanks!

So, does/did Standard O run on the same tubular track as (??whatever is the opposite of Standard O)?

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for the most part i don't think lionels standard O (scale) usually looks good with their traditional O (semi-scale). not only are lionels semi-scale not very long, but they seem quite shorter and not nearly wide (thick) enough.

now mth seperates scale and semi-scale by calling it "railking" and "premier". it seems in my opinion mth's railking(semi-scale line) is usually taller and wider than lionel's semi-scale stuff. i think the railking line look pretty normal with the both scale(standard O/Premeir) and lionel's semi-scale(traditional O, also called 0-27 sometimes).
i run my railking cars with both some of my scale stuff and semi-scale stuff.

There is a fairly good if basic discussion of this on page 3. of the 2008 Lionel Catalog, Volume 2, which is online at www.lionel.com.

The bottom line is that almost any loco or car where the wheels are set for O gauge will sit on and run on O-27, O-31 (traditional Lionel three rail track), O-36 FasTrack, etc. -- as long as the track is straight. This holds true for track made by other vendors also. The determining factor is the gauge which is the distance between the wheels. It is the curves that introduce complications as to what will actually run on a layout and what won't. Larger locos and cars frequently require wide-radius curves.

As for the appearance, that's a whole new ballgame. We old folks grew up with Lionel locos and cars that were a bit undersized relative to true 1:48 scale, which technically means one inch in the model equals 48 inches in the prototype. We also settled for a modest amount of detail and a huge assortment of fantasy designs, road names, and paint schemes.

As "Hi-rail" layouts have grown increasingly popular, many folks have come to insist on very close-to-scale sizes with increasingly fine detail. Generally these are a bit larger than traditional Lionel cars, and certainly larger than most cars sold with O-27 sets.

Frequently, but not always, these lines of larger cars are given special names, such as Standard-O* (versus "traditional") or Premier vs RailKing, etc; but there are no hard and fast rules.** For example, there is good detail in Lionel's traditionally sized "6464-series" box cars, and a lot of folks like the smaller "Industrial Rail" cars currently offered by Atlas, although a lot of the IR sizes are raw fantasy, e.g. the log cars.

Mixing/matching these different size cars can sometimes appear to be less than satisfactory; i.e., less than realistic.

That said, if one watches a real freight train go by, he will immediately notice that there is a huge variation in the types and sizes of cars within the same same train. Nobody minds. The issue seems to be one of perception: if one sees a large car coupled to a smaller one, the brain accepts it as "real" because it is real after all. On a model train layout, however, the brain may not be as forgiving, and the juxtaposition of large and small cars may not appear quite "natural".

Some folks get around this by grouping their large box cars together at one end of the train, then adding a few low cars (flatcars, perhaps or specialty cars) and then finishing with the smaller box cars. This avoids putting large and small box cars together. They claim it helps fool the brain a bit. In any event, they're all your cars, and you can make up your consists however you wish. If anyone laughs, lock the beer cooler and don't invite them back.

* "Standard O" must not be confused with "Standard Gauge" which is a different size altogether.

** When I go train shopping I carry a small tape measure and a sheet giving the dimensions of a few of my existing cars.

quote:

Some folks get around this by grouping their large box cars together at one end of the train, then adding a few low cars (flatcars, perhaps or specialty cars) and then finishing with the smaller box cars. This avoids putting large and small box cars together.

Great idea. I didn't think of that. Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by GG-1 4877:
Actuall, you've asked a more complex question than maybe you first asked. As mentioned above, Standard 0 is a Lionel term for the relative scale of the trains they have made which vary from something like 1:64 (S scale or 0-27) to about 1:56.

I'm sure the phrase "built to or very near to scale size as opposed to" was left out of the above sentence somewhere

Standard O referred to a line of scale-size cars made from second-hand tooling (from a European company--I'm not sure which) acquired in the 1970's. The term "Standard O" distinguishes them from the rest of Lionel's O Gauge offerings which were typically undersized to varying degrees. Since then Lionel has kept the term to refer to its scale-sized products.

---PCJ

GG-1 4877
The Lionel Pennsy B6 switcher made in the prewar period was also O scale.

Railride
I think it was Pola, which had previously made them for AHM/Rivarossi. Pola had also offered a line of European prototype O scale trains at that time, in 1:43 (or maybe 1:45) scale. Roco made the Atlas O cars in the 70's.

John

This web page doesn't address "Standard O" but has useful comparisons of various O-Gauge sizes.

http://www.thortrains.net/carsize1.html

It may have gotten lost in the several responses posted above, but "Standard O" means full-scale 1:48, or just "O-Scale." It's not quite that simple, but nothing with toy trains ever is.

The term is NOT completely synonymous with O-gauge, but most Standard-O will run on O-gauge track. Many folks use O-gauge and O-scale interchangeably, but strictly speaking they represent different concepts.

One more time: O-gauge refers to the distance between the wheels (that is, the track gauge) whereas Standard-O refers to the "scale" dimensions of the cars. The track for Lionel O-gauge trains is NOT manufactured to scale dimensions; although many of the car and loco bodies are.

To Walt Rapp,

Yes. Standard O locos and cars will sit on traditional Lionel tubular track, and will run on it if the curves are not too tight.

Here are some photos to clarify the difference. On the left we have a traditional style Lionel boxcar made in 1987. It differs from the postwar 6464 cars only in having sprung trucks. In the center is a Standard O car from 1997. This is from an early standard O mold. Detail is slightly better than the traditional car; the big difference is the size. The Great Northern car is a Lionel Standard O PS-1 boxcar of recent issue. The PS-1 prototype is taller than the older AAR boxcar that was the prototype for the other two cars; the difference in height of the models is prototypical, not related to the scale of the car.

The second photo shows clearly the difference in detail. The newer Standard O car has openwork walkways, separate ladders and grabs, and separate brake rigging. It has a much more detailed underframe, not visible in the photo. It is also more expensive, as the market has demanded better and better detail.


Rail King cars are typically larger than traditional Lionel but smaller than true scale. There is no fixed rule, MTH adjusts the size so that the cars will operate on short radius track and look good together.

Hope this helps.

The answers seem to be getting a tad over complicated.

The simple answer is, Lionel starter sets have been coming with FasTrack long enough now that many folks have no idea what the "O27" and "O" references were based on in the old catalogs.

So starting this year Lionel decided to stop using that terminology in THEIR catalogs. So items in the Lionel catalogs that used to call "O" are now "Standard O", and items they use to call "O27" are now "Traditional O".
It's as simple as that.

Except for the minor fact everyone else still uses the "O27" and "O" terminology to describe things in their catalogs. And some folks doing "Standard Gauge" are disappointed when they find out "Standard O" isn't the same thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Len2:
The answers seem to be getting a tad over complicated.

The simple answer is, Lionel starter sets have been coming with FasTrack long enough now that many folks have no idea what the "O27" and "O" references were based on in the old catalogs.

So starting this year Lionel decided to stop using that terminology in THEIR catalogs. So items in the Lionel catalogs that used to call "O" are now "Standard O", and items they use to call "O27" are now "Traditional O".
It's as simple as that.

Except for the minor fact everyone else still uses the "O27" and "O" terminology to describe things in their catalogs. And some folks doing "Standard Gauge" are disappointed when they find out "Standard O" isn't the same thing.

Len2, your tongue-in-cheek is noted. Nevertheless, do you have a source for your observation that Lionel has changed their terminology? Not that I doubt it, because in my experience the most annoying thing Lionel does is to change things with out mentioning it -- in the same spirit as the Soviets building the Doomsday Machine and neglecting to let anyone know.*

Part of the greatness of the English language is the vast number of words it contains. Without getting hopelessly lost in linguistics, I submit that this is because there are so many different things and concepts in the universe that it takes a lot of different words to encompass them. Are we saying that Lionel has decreed that there are two sizes of 0, and perhaps one additional size of 0-27; or just two sizes, period? Whichever the answer, it seems like horse-hockey to me.

There are so many different size cars that will sit on 0-gauge track (let's stick to box cars for the moment) that it's almost a continuum from the smallest through the largest. Nevertheless, it seems convenient to break these down in to a few discrete sizes. However, if we decide to limit our choices to three sizes, then two words simply will not do the job. To attempt it is akin to looking at a rainbow and deciding that we will call some of the colors red and the rest green.

As I tried to point out in an earlier post, REAL train cars come in lots of sizes too; but the impression on a layout can be more difficult to get right. Trompe l'oeil, anyone?

Despite my high regard for the power of English, a picture is still worth a thousand words. Those posted by "Southwest Hiawatha" go a long way, but do not run the gamut of what you will find should you blunder into a retail store or catalog.

Some catalogs, by some manufacturers, purport to provide dimensions but frequently they present only two out of the three that I have observed in my world. None that I know of specifies how the measurements are actually done. Does one include the couplers? Does one measure from top of rail to overall top of car, or with the car sitting on a flat surface? To my eye, width seems to be most problematic, and yet its measurements are the most uncertain -- if they are present at all. Is there any consistency between manufacturers? As little as 1/16 of an inch can make an annoying difference.

I own examples of various-size Lionel boxcars from a remarkably a small 0-27 up to full scale; with Industrial Rail, MTH, Kris Model Trains, and Williams in addition. They can all run in the same train on the same track, should I to choose to do so. Generally, I choose not to.

Unfortunately, I can't post photos on this forum. If I could, I would do so and perhaps include dimensioned sketches. I am no rivet counter, but I agree that mixing and matching cars on the same train often presents problems.

*Reference: Dr. Strangelove.

Serious inquiries should refer to page 3 of the Lionel 2008 Train Catalog Volume 2 for the facts. Many of the preceding replies seem to be opinions expressed for entertainment purposes only.



What, me worry?

quote:

Originally posted by Alfred E Neuman:
Serious inquiries should refer to page 3 of the Lionel 2008 Train Catalog Volume 2 for the facts. Many of the preceding replies seem to be opinions expressed for entertainment purposes only.



What, me worry?

True, Alfred, absolutely true. Pity you couldn't have been the first to post the link to the Lionel catalog....

quote:

Originally spoken by Homer Simpson:
Doh!

What, me worry?

quote:

Originally posted by Alfred E Neuman:
Serious inquiries should refer to page 3 of the Lionel 2008 Train Catalog Volume 2 for the facts. Many of the preceding replies seem to be opinions expressed for entertainment purposes only.



What, me worry?

Same place in 2008/Vol-1 Catalog. Why Lionel decided to do this without coordinating with the other vendors, TCA, etc., first is beyond me.

quote:

Originally posted by Len2:
Why Lionel decided to do this without coordinating with the other vendors, TCA, etc., first is beyond me.

Why should they? Lionel invented the term "Standard O" back in 1973. It's their word, nobody else uses it, they can define it as they choose.