I also wonder if anyone/clubs would use Gauged time?

Thanks

If my mathematics is correct, then with O scale being 1:48, then it would be 24 hours divided by 48, so 30 minutes. Seems short...

Tom

An O scale day is 24 hours.

Time doesn't scale down.

Think about it. IF you had the space to actually recreate a railroad in O scale, using scale miles, then your time factor is constant. That is, it would take the same run time at the same scale speed to cover the same scale distance the prototype would. Miniature world: Time constant.

Obviously, even the largest of the large O scale layouts cannot replicate the distance of an actual sub division of a railroad. Thus, model railroaders have used "compressed time", or "fast clocks" to expedite the movement of the clock hands.

Common ratios are:

12 to 1. That is, 5 minutes equals 1 hour. This allows a 24 hour cycle in 2 hours.

6 to 1. 10 minutes equals 1 hour, or 4 hours in a "day".

There is even a formula to determine how short a compressed "mile" is using the desired time ratio. These distances are called "smiles", for "scaled miles".

Much more printed information is available if one desires.

Andre Ming

I hope this doesn't turn into a thread like the "scale weight" thread a ways back. That one gave me a headache.

You can replicate time lapse if you like. Run your trains flat out as fast as possible, you might achieve a 6 or 8 hour day. You might also have a heart attack.
Tom, I see you live in Durham, with winter coming for you, surely your days are short enough already. You already have a "nature imposed" very short day.

You'll have to use a fast clock or move to Jupiter!!! Jupiter's day is approx 9.8 hours (our time).

If you're into operation and running freights and passenger trains on a schedule then a fast clock is the way to go. I made one once (when in HO) by removing the hour hand from a regular clock and making a new face to represent how fast I wanted the time to go.

quote:

Time doesn't scale down.

Think of it in terms of distance.

An "0" scale mile is 5280/48 = 110 feet

Speed is distance traveled/time

A slow train moving at a scale 30 MPH moves 30 x 110/60 = 55 feet per minute
and 55 feet per minute x 12"/60sec also = 11 inches per second


A faster train going a scale 60 MPH moves 60 X 110/60 = 110 feet per minute
and 110 feet per minute x 12"/60sec also = 22 inches per second


Additional questions and observations

How far would that 60MPH train travel in 24 hours ?
60 x 24 = 1440 miles

How far would that scale 60MPH 0-Gauge train travel in a 24 hour day?
110 feet/minute x 60 minutes/hour x 24 hours/day = 158,400 feet
and 158,400 /5280 also = 30 miles

That's 1440/48 or 30 actual miles

www.njhirailers.com

Time doesn't need to scale but our track distances do. Even those of us with very large layouts probably only have a scale mile of track. This means the train covers the distance between two points too quickly. In order to make this make sense for a schedule is to use a fast clock which are made for model railroaders. That way the clock shows several scale minutes transpiring instead of the real 30 seconds!

If you were attempting to show day/night/day cycles in an automated store window display, for example, the cycle would have to be quite short. You would need to have your lighting adjust quickly enough so that folks would notice the changing time, and still be sufficiently entranced to stick around through at least one full cycle. This would be quite short indeed.

If you were planning to simulate real train operations in a basement or club, for example, with lots of remote controls and job-assignments for all the available personnel, you might use a totally different schedule, factoring in things like when you start operations relative to bedtime, beer and potty breaks, will there be pizza?, when do the kids have to go to bed?, is your wife going to break up the party at some point?, etc.

I agree with the mathematical solution (30 minutes -- it does "feel" rather short); and also that time is a constant at relatively low-speed near-earth; but I can't see their relevance. Doesn't the ultimate solution have to be a "functional" one? In a phrase, you're perfectly free to do whatever "feels right" in your circumstances. You can make this as simple or as complicated as you desire.

In reality, time is a psychological concept. Does an hour spent in a dentist chair seem the same as an hour with your new girlfriend?

Old as I am, I'm basically a kid when it comes to toy trains. When I want to run in daylight I leave the lights on; and when I wan't to run "in the evening" or "at night" I dim them or switch them off. I have no computer or special clock controlling anything, but I think I have a workable grasp of the concept.

Other thoughts?

Nap time.

>

quote:

Posted November 04, 2009 06:09 AM Hide Post
If my mathematics is correct, then with O scale being 1:48, then it would be 24 hours divided by 48, so 30 minutes.

quote:

If my mathematics is correct, then with O scale being 1:48, then it would be 24 hours divided by 48, so 30 minutes

While "0" scale distance is 1/48, I disagree with 1/48 "0" scale time
because if both distance and time were each divided by 1/48,
and since speed is always the ratio of distance divided by time,
then any scale speed would be the same as the actual train speed.

Imagine an "0" scale model moving a mile a minute or 88 feet per second same as a 60 MPH train ?

(60 MPH x 5280 feet/mile x 1/60 minute x 1/60 second = 88 feet per second)

In a "make-believe" day of 30 minutes real time, an "0" scale model train moving at a 60 MPH scale speed of 22 inches per second would only travel an actual 3300 feet. (22"/sec x 1 ft/12" x 60 sec/min x 30 minutes = 3300 feet)

(3300 feet x 48 divided by 5280 feet/mile = 30 scale miles)
That's 30 scale miles in a "make-believe" day of 30 minutes.

www.njhirailers.com

Here we go......break out the Tylenol.

You have entered "The Twilight Zone"

http://www.cbs.com/classics/the_twilight_zone/

I think that if you run very, very fast you can actually compress the time. You might not be able to see the trains, tho . . . and the other question is - relative to what?

Blink and you missed it.

quote:

Originally posted by timw:
Here we go......break out the Tylenol.

Better to break out the beers.

Funny, 4-5 years ago the OGR Crew and Neil Young came up with a time controller system that would run your layout based on scale time, the project never took off though

Maybe they would know

quote:

Originally posted by bob2:
I think that if you run very, very fast you can actually compress the time. You might not be able to see the trains, tho . . . and the other question is - relative to what?

Exactly! The rate at which time passes depends on an object's velocity relative to the speed of light and also on the strength of intense gravitational fields, which can slow the passage of time.



What, me worry?

quote:

Originally posted by Alfred E Neuman:

quote:

Originally posted by bob2:
I think that if you run very, very fast you can actually compress the time. You might not be able to see the trains, tho . . . and the other question is - relative to what?

Exactly! The rate at which time passes depends on an object's velocity relative to the speed of light and also on the strength of intense gravitational fields, which can slow the passage of time.



What, me worry?

Yea there was something on The Universe that mentioned if you went around a black hole enough in the right direction, you could possibly go back in time...

Time is not "scaled". Usually a fast clock is used for MRR operating sessions and is can be anything you want. Most are from 3 to 6 hours for a day ops.

quote:

Originally posted by timw:
Here we go......break out the Tylenol.

How does Tylenol and beer go together, relative to the speed of light? Or is it affected by the beer's specific gravity?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Allen:
Tom, I see you live in Durham, with winter coming for you, surely your days are short enough already. You already have a "nature imposed" very short day.

Hi Dave,

Yes, the nights are drawing in now, and with the layout in the garage, it means I am doing most of my work in the house until next March when the weather should improve

Must be nice down in the land of Oz where the weather's always nice

Tom

quote:

Time is not "scaled". Usually a fast clock is used for MRR operating sessions and is can be anything you want. Most are from 3 to 6 hours for a day ops.

That's the way I've always understood it to work--via a fast clock. Although I'm not familiar with it myself, a good number of clubs and large group-operated private layouts use a fast clock system for their operating sessions. I imagine that those familiar with how clocks work can rather easily switch out some of the internal gears to come up with a clock that advances at the proper (sped-up) rate.

quote:

I imagine that those familiar with how clocks work can rather easily switch out some of the internal gears to come up with a clock that advances at the proper (sped-up) rate.

Allan,

No need to re-gear, just make a new dial face with whatever amount of numbers (time) you want to use (see my previous post).



If you remove the hour hand, you can make a new face. Let's say you want to make a 10:1 fast clock. Make the face so that each "hour" is 6 minutes actual time (or actually 36 degress of the dial face), with the minute hand still attached. Each actual minute would be 10 minutes of "fast clock" time.

So to make a face represent any amount of fast time:

8:1 - each hour mark at 45 degrees - would give you 8 hours in 1 hour actual time

4:1 - each hour mark at 90 degrees - would give you 4 hours in 1 hour actual time. If you want to run a 2-hour session just let the hand go around twice!

I don't recall the brand of clock I used but the hands came off by removing a nut. With the hands off I was able to mount the new face then put the minute hand back in place. You could also just clip the hours hand off with a pair of cutters.

Somebody check my math! It looks right but I may have overlooked something.

quote:

Originally posted by bob2:
I think that if you run very, very fast you can actually compress the time. You might not be able to see the trains, tho . . . and the other question is - relative to what?

Time is relative to the speed at which an object travels.

Translation: traveling clocks tick slower

Aha!

Everyones favorite MetaPhysical topic has been reborn. (it was about TIME :-)

The last time this topic came up there was some intense physics discussion about scaling time or not. It was actually quite fun!

The practical answer is that some operators do use what is called a Fast Clock. Typically they let a whole day pass is say 1 hour.

The interesting effect is that on your layout two towns may be only feet apart nowhere near scaled down miles needed. But by accelerating the clock is takes longer to cover those few feet...

quote:

Originally posted by Flash:

Time is relative to the speed at which an object travels.

Translation: traveling clocks tick slower

So if you run your trains really, really fast, can you fool the DCS on-board chronometer into reading less operating time than the engine actually ran? Important to an observer and his "relatives" (who else!) sitting at rest (relatively speaking) with their beers watching the train?

Something to consider if offered a used train for sale by an extraterrestrial that has a suspiciously low "run time".

Jim

quote:

Time is not "scaled". Usually a fast clock is used for MRR operating sessions and is can be anything you want. Most are from 3 to 6 hours for a day ops.

Right there is the total and complete answer to this question. I don't understand why some of you have to over-complicate things by analyzing the relativity of time and motion, the speed of light, mathematical equations that make my eyes glaze over and perhaps even the temperature of the beer.

In model railroading, "TIME" can be what ever you want it to be. That's it.

Any further "discussion" is simply over-complicating what is in reality a very simple answer.

I guess I might fall into the group of thousands that don't worry about this subject.....I just run my model trains the way I want to, when I want to and as long as I want to.

My clock is not a factor...unless I get interupted and have to stop running my trains. I just don't think about it nor want to think about it. I just have fun and share my fun with others. IMHO.

Tex

Einstine and Asminov are rolling their eyes.

Some responses above have the correct idea; just run 'em as fast as possible in accordance to E=MC squared. Because the faster something travels, the younger it becomes; shortens time. Oh yeah, I don't understand it either.

I think the scale weight discussions were easier to grasp.

Hate to get serious in this thread, but I experienced one operating session controlled by a fast clock. Having to clear the mainline by a certain time while watching the fast clock hands zip around the dial was a lot of pressure. Not my idea of fun running trains.

For some a fast clock is a great way to add realism, but for me it adds too much stress to running trains.

Jim

Time can't be compressed. If it takes an N sacale train to one minute to travel one N scale mile (about 30 feet) then it should take one real hour to travel 60 scale miles so your little train is running 60 scale miles per hour. Now if you really want a headache to think about consider this:No matter how fast a regular steam locomotive is going every time the side rods reach closest to the ground they come to dead stop (if only for a fleeting moment) and then at the top of their rotation the side rods are travelling twice as fast (in relation to the ground) as the locomotive is travelling. So why don't the side rods arrive at the destination way before the rest of the train? Go ahead...I dare you....to try to visualize this. I'll bet some of you will lay awake in your beds tonight thinking about this. Good night. Odd-d

quote:

Originally posted by Odd-d:
Now if you really want a headache to think about consider this:No matter how fast a regular steam locomotive is going every time the side rods reach closest to the ground they come to dead stop (if only for a fleeting moment) and then at the top of their rotation the side rods are travelling twice as fast (in relation to the ground) as the locomotive is travelling. So why don't the side rods arrive at the destination way before the rest of the train? Go ahead...I dare you....to try to visualize this. I'll bet some of you will lay awake in your beds tonight thinking about this. Good night. Odd-d

Because over the course of one revolution the average velocity of the siderods can be simplified as (2v + 0)/2 which is v, or the same velocity as the engine itself. Actually the relative velocity of the rods with the ground varies as v = vmax(sin y) where y is the angle of rotation through each revolution (simple harmonic motion).

So much for physics today - I'd rather stay a retired physics teacher.

Jim

Ha ha Jim, I LOVE it. Now, can we forget about this?

Odd-d you are worse than me.
I was once struggling up a hill with a freight train that had 3 SD40s. I stood up and isolated the lead unit, let it run down to idle, then put it back on line and let it power back up. A few minutes later I did it again. The 3rd time the headbrakeman asked what the heck I was doing. I said we need the extra power.

"So? How does isolating this unit help?" he asked.

I replied... are you ready for it... "Each time I take this unit off line I drop one of our 3 units which reduces our HP by 33%. When I put it back on line I am adding 50% more HP than we had when it was isolated. So each time I isolate the unit and put it back on line we gain 17% HP. All That extra HP is what is getting us up this hill without stalling".

He sat over there and thought about it for quite some time. He finally admitted that he couldn't figure out where I was wrong but he was sure I wasn't right.

Wyhog

Ok so if O gauge is 1:48 then at what temperature (F) does water boil in an O gauge live steam engine?

I think it is 1/48th of 212 degrees. That is 4.4 degrees F. But then I wonder why the 70 degree water in its tender isn't boiling?

Wyhog

Odd-d, your post reminded me of a computer analysis I did in college that "proved" a point on a wheel in contact with a surface stopped while the rest of the points traveled at varying velocities. Wish I had saved that bit of coding for my grandkids so I could watch their eyes glaze over, as Rich so nicely put it.

Nae man can tether time or tide. – Robert Burns

quote:

Originally posted by OGR Webmaster:

quote:

Time is not "scaled". Usually a fast clock is used for MRR operating sessions and is can be anything you want. Most are from 3 to 6 hours for a day ops.

Right there is the total and complete answer to this question. I don't understand why some of you have to over-complicate things by analyzing the relativity of time and motion, the speed of light, mathematical equations that make my eyes glaze over and perhaps even the temperature of the beer.

In model railroading, "TIME" can be what ever you want it to be. That's it.

Any further "discussion" is simply over-complicating what is in reality a very simple answer.

Because usually these are the type of folks who when asked
"What time is it?" proceed to tell you how to make a clock !!


Rufus

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Allen:

quote:

Originally posted by timw:
Here we go......break out the Tylenol.

How does Tylenol and beer go together, relative to the speed of light? Or is it affected by the beer's specific gravity?

Exactly! Of course, there are other variables such as the dosage of Tylenol, the age, gender and weight of the subject ingesting all this. Some other factors include the beer itself, light or dark? And, is the speed of light being measured through an empty or full beer glass? Of course, if all this is done in the southern hemisphere, it's all backwards anyway .

Okay....well my brother-in-law is an HO rivet counter with his basement as his layout....the whole basement. Everything is prototypically correct. His train "group" prefers to be called Model Railroaders. When they have operating sessions, it is all done as mentioned by another post. A fast clock is used....schedules must be kept. For that part of the hobby, god bless 'em, they enjoy it and the craftsmenship is superb. I went and tried to participate, but just couldn't get myself to enjoy the pressure of schedules etc. A scale time clock may have a place in a Model Railroad, but for me, I want to play with my trains at my pace. It's like I said to one of the rivet counters at the operating session when he asked if I was having fun and I replied "Well, I can't seem to find the log loader or the operating milk can car!"

quote:

Originally posted by timw:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Allen:

quote:

Originally posted by timw:
Here we go......break out the Tylenol.

How does Tylenol and beer go together, relative to the speed of light? Or is it affected by the beer's specific gravity?

Exactly! Of course, there are other variables such as the dosage of Tylenol, the age, gender and weight of the subject ingesting all this. Some other factors include the beer itself, light or dark? And, is the speed of light being measured through an empty or full beer glass? Of course, if all this is done in the southern hemisphere, it's all backwards anyway .

It's all backwards any way?
Yes, there is a Simpsons episode for everything!
I prefer dark beer.
And the speed of light travels in kilometers per second here. (~300,000kmps)
as opposed to 186000 mps.
My weight is Kg, and only concerns my doctor. I'm sure if I told him in pounds, he'd have a heart attack!

quote:

Originally posted by hobby-go-lucky:
Nae man can tether time or tide. – Robert Burns

I never thought I would see Robbie Burns quoted in a toy train forum.

My old flute professor, Victor McMahon told the tale, if ye want to be a great poet, stand in front of the fire 'till ye Robbie Burns.

Yawn. If my train is going to arrive too fast at its destination, I just send it around the layout someplace else a few extra times.
.....
Dennis

How long is an O gauge 24 hour day? It lasts only as long as it takes for my wife to flash the basement lights and holler downstairs that supper is on the table.

juniata guy,

That is the best answer so far!! LOL


sam

2 light years worth.

Most the time I tell Postwarhead. Its time to shut it down!We run trains till the sun rise. About a 24 day, hell we run till we can not run any more. Well I do not know about scale time, ax the HO guys.

And I thought this was a thread about a new platform clock for passenger stations?