It just amazes me at MTH's lack of quality control. Witness the new E44's so called PC logo. Who actually signs off on this stuff and allows it to enter the country? Gosh, even the guys at CTT caught this one and spilled the beans.

Nothing a VERY small paintbrush and a VERY steady hand can't fix.

help me out as I have not seen it. What is the goof?

The P and the C are connected at two points. The correct PC "mating worms" never actually touched.

quote:

Originally posted by NickyBigBoy:
Nothing a VERY small paintbrush and a VERY steady hand can't fix.

True, but you shouldn't have to "fix" a brand new $400 engine in this way - it should have been caught during inspection/quality control.

That was a pretty obvious one. There was a thread earlier this year when they came out with pictures. Probably gone by now. While I have no issue with masking a fixing a paint job, the PC logo is a joke for it to have been released that way.

I guess all we can say is that it happens. Sometimes a lot.

Well...I wonder who's fault it was this time?? Lets see...uhmm....of the last few purchases I have made from MTH, all of them have had some sort of "mistake" as far as accuracy, finish, decoration. I just think it all boils down to the lack of attention in the first place. But of course if you don't like it just return it for a full refund...or at least that seems to be the standard response. Because of the long wait times for locomotives, etc. that we all incurr, to just return the item and wait for it to be run again correctly is likely to take years so we go ahead and put up with poor QC. Yep, I bought the PC model too and will eventually fix the logo. Good customer service would have at least involved an apology....perhaps there was one and I missed it???

Alan

That wasn't the only goof they made. Few years back MTH brought out Pittsburgh and WestVirginia FMs. They were black and tan, instead of black and yellow.

PC sucks anyway, 2/1/68 a day of infamy.

Is there a photo of this problem somewhere?

quote:

Originally posted by bazonkers:
Is there a photo of this problem somewhere?

It was on the forum somewhere...I saw it once...looks like its gone. Someone will need to repost the photo.

MTH doesn't get the message when you fix it yourself. I'm sure the logo problem wasn't an issue on the approved artwork but is due to a screw up by someone in the factory "taking initiative". If 500 engines show up in a container with a wrong logo but MTH knows that people will complain but keep them, I'd ship them to dealers as well. Why incur extra cost when the messed up logos sell anyways?

Only complaining about it does nothing. Fixing it yourself does not fix the problem. MTH gets to keep your money if you never return the screwed up items.

Why should MTH care when items with shoddy QC still sell like nothing was wrong with them? Vote with your wallets. Don't buy shoddy items!

While I have not seen the offending model, I have seen the E-33, and it was done correctly. Here is an all time list of MTH Penn Central models.

Return it to your dealer for a refund if not done correctly. Then he will return it to them for a credit of his outlay.

BBB

Funny WBB got thier logos correct and at $250.00 less cost!
Same people making them! Seems like Quality control screwed up!
This happens when non Train people work the company.

I love these threads on any manufacturer's new engine, car, or whatever that comes through with an error from the protypical. How many of you that are so fast to criticize whatever manufacturer's little errors, have any idea of what it takes to get a train item made or have been involved in the process? Having had a reefer car made by Atlas I speak from experience. Some of you act like and post insinuating the company is just lackadaisical about the QC, which isn't the truth, they do try to make things right, but sometimes as humans things are missed. In doing the Natty Boh reefer the artwork was reviewed by Atlas staff many times, By National Boh folks and by myself constantly, and still we missed that an integral part of the National Bohemian logo,(hops and grains at the bottom)was left off the original artwork and it wasn't discovered until the first prototype was made and shipped from China. It was a very small detail just as the line not separating the P and the C on this engine's logo is. And it wasn't Atlas, or myself that discovered it even though we went over it numerous times, but a member of the Forum when I posted a picture saw it right off. Luckily the cars had not gone to production yet so we were able to straighten it out but another day and they would have been painted with the incorrect logo and shipped that way. But the car had been approved by Natty Boh, Atlas staff and myself with the error, and if I hadn't posted a pic on the Forum it would not have been caught. So if something comes out wrong and you don't want it either don't buy it or return it but get off your high horses that any of the manufacturers just don't care about mistakes and QC and that's why mistakes happen. Mistakes happen because humans are involved in the process and thankfully so.

Well said Paul....

quote:

Originally posted by VaGolfer1950:
I love these threads on any manufacturer's new engine, car, or whatever that comes through with an error from the protypical. How many of you that are so fast to criticize whatever manufacturer's little errors, have any idea of what it takes to get a train item made or have been involved in the process? Having had a reefer car made by Atlas I speak from experience. Some of you act like and post insinuating the company is just lackadaisical about the QC, which isn't the truth, they do try to make things right, but sometimes as humans things are missed. In doing the Natty Boh reefer the artwork was reviewed by Atlas staff many times, By National Boh folks and by myself constantly, and still we missed that an integral part of the National Bohemian logo,(hops and grains at the bottom)was left off the original artwork and it wasn't discovered until the first prototype was made and shipped from China. It was a very small detail just as the line not separating the P and the C on this engine's logo is. And it wasn't Atlas, or myself that discovered it even though we went over it numerous times, but a member of the Forum when I posted a picture saw it right off. Luckily the cars had not gone to production yet so we were able to straighten it out but another day and they would have been painted with the incorrect logo and shipped that way. But the car had been approved by Natty Boh, Atlas staff and myself with the error, and if I hadn't posted a pic on the Forum it would not have been caught. So if something comes out wrong and you don't want it either don't buy it or return it but get off your high horses that any of the manufacturers just don't care about mistakes and QC and that's why mistakes happen. Mistakes happen because humans are involved in the process and thankfully so.

Little errors like my "Reading and Nortern" hoppers.

I have the PC E44 because I bought it with the juice train.
The logo bothers me a lot and has to be fixed.
There's a job for Jeff Sohn in there somewhere.

eliot

quote:

Originally posted by John Pignatelli:
PC sucks anyway, 2/1/68 a day of infamy.

Yeah, but it is fun to model.

Maybe a dab of magic marker to sperate the offending letters?

It's Penn Central. Who will notice?

I pre-ordered the Juice Train and when it finally came in i never even noticed the logo, until i read the review on it in CTT. then i said to myself "Noooo, they got a bad one, mine is correct"...then i looked at it closely...Whoops!! looks like a job for some masking tape and a black paint pen, [then maybe some weathering and rust.
what i did notice about the loco right away was that the box description under "features" was not correct...
"Working smoke unit"- nope not on this one
"operable opening doors"- perhaps on a different premier loco

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qZTuFc_io4

Oh well...right now i have a bad R-11 that will be traveling back to MTH, the E-44 at least does run

Paul....I appreciate the fact that you were responsible for the production of a beautiful reefer! I also appreciate the fact that human beings make mistakes and your example stated above illustrated how a mistake almost got by. I think the points some of us are trying to make here is how a mistake is handled after the fact AND how often these mistakes seem to happen. I am willing to bet that if your reefer would have arrived with the problem of the logo being incorrect, YOU would have gone the extra mile to find a way to get it corrected....that is the kind of guy you are....even with the health crisis you were going through at the time. I think that sometimes it takes many eyes to "see" and in the case of the Natty reefer it was a good thing that the forum was able to view the prototype model before production. Perhaps an increase in the number of critical eyes looking at upcoming manufacturer's models could reduce the mistakes...don't know how practical that would be though.

Alan

quote:

Originally posted by John Pignatelli:
PC sucks anyway, 2/1/68 a day of infamy.

4/1/76 even worse

quote:

Perhaps an increase in the number of critical eyes looking at upcoming manufacturer's models could reduce the mistakes...don't know how practical that would be though.

Maybe so Alan, but as you said it may not be too practical. The problem is a lot of times even though we are looking for a mistake we see what we expect to see and not what is actually there, especially if it is very close to what we expect to see. As was posted one guy had this engine and never noticed the P and C were connected until it was pointed out to him.

My post was more to the point that folks that post that MTH, Lionel, or Atlas or whatever company that has issued a product with an error don't care about QC when an error is picked up after it is released, believe me they do. I've read the posts when Lionel has done the same thing, Atlas and MTH all of them make mistakes, and it appears that it becomes a feeding frenzy to tear into whichever company is involved. I read the CTT article and they also spoke about all the detail that they didn't expect to see that was included, how much otherwise it was authentic, and how good an engine this one is, other then that the P & C were incorrectly connected. That hasn't been mentioned in this thread, but just more bashing because what a 1/32" wide paint line wasn't included?

Paul...I can tell you are feeling better!! OK....I guess my personal point is that I feel that more mistakes are taking place than is acceptable at the price points we are paying. While some folks may think this is "bashing" a company, I feel this forum is an appropriate place to point out problems since it represents a large part of the O-scale hobby and I believe is read by representatives of those companies. All of this with the goal of getting a better product. It is the most efficent way of getting a lot of "opinions" delivered to the manufacturer...now all they have to do is do their best and to respond when there is a problem. We are all human and we all make mistakes but when someone else's hard earned money is involved, we need to look at it from the customer's standpoint. I learned long ago that customer service is a very broad term and it has served me very, very well and when customers purchase from me, they expect to receive what they bought. I think the old saying the customer is always right had a lot to do with not so much customers being right but more with retaining your customers with delivering the expected product and service. So....there is no doubt that some folks like to bash certain manufacturers and their products but regardless when a mistake is made on one of their products, we should be able to let them know within reason that we expect better from them if they want loyalty from us. By the way....I want to say again I am so thankful that you are doing better!!!

Alan

Is this the, and they all lived happily ever after forum; or is it a forum created to discuss current O gauge model railroading. Big Jim and anybody else, on this forum, should be able to speak their minds, regarding any aspect of our hobby. I find there is to much, love it or leave it attitude here.


Rick

Alan it is good to be feeling well enough to be a bit feisty lol, and I respect you and your opinion you know that, even if it isn't the same as mine. You actually have purchased the engine and I am curious as to what you think of the entire job done in producing this model beside the fact that the P&C are connected? After reading the article in CTT and the 10 paragraphs on how good a job MTH did with all the details added I was thinking of tracking one down for myself.

Omax did I miss somewhere where it was posted that anyone couldn't post their opinion in this thread? I just read folks posting their different opinions on the subject as everyone has the right to do as long as it is done civilly. I have to disagree with your statement about the love it or leave it attitude on the Forum for the greater majority of folks that post here. Of course you are entitled to your opinion.

MTH has opened a can of worms with this engine!

quote:

Originally posted by techie:

quote:

Originally posted by John Pignatelli:
PC sucks anyway, 2/1/68 a day of infamy.

4/1/76 even worse

How is Conrail worse?

quote:

I love these threads on any manufacturer's new engine, car, or whatever that comes through with an error from the protypical. How many of you that are so fast to criticize whatever manufacturer's little errors, have any idea of what it takes to get a train item made or have been involved in the process?

Yes I have been involved in the process and this was just plain in your face obvious to even the most casual observer! Smaller details I can understand, but in a logo this size? Even people who hate the PC know what the logo should look like. No free pass on this particular issue. It's kind of like gluing the windows on the outside of the car.

quote:

Originally posted by John Pignatelli:
PC sucks anyway, 2/1/68 a day of infamy.

PC as a business was a disaster. PC in O guage is FUN

Except for shared areas, the verb is "was" for CR?

Dominic....very clever!! LOL!! I had forgotten that the PC logo sometimes is refered to as two worms.

Paul...I do in fact have the engine. Overall it is nicely done and I like it except for the logo problem which is fixable...but you know how I feel about that. In any case there were a couple of other things about the locomotive that were in the original description that were not included in the production model but for me accuracy in appearance is more important.

Alan

Paul,

I can only speak from personal experience; and my experience has been significant disappointment when it comes to MTH products, and their lack of quality control. MTH products are my fist choice when they are built right. The problem is, a significant amount of the time, we end up with sloppy workmanship; and defective products. Then instead of having fun with our hobby, we have to deal with the hassles of trying to get our purchase replaced, or fixed, i.e. today I got a replacement for a MTH F3 ABA set. I originally purchased that set in mid September. I was on the phone to MTH today and another repaired defective product is on it's way back to me, a P5a. I could go on, and on about what I have had to deal with... MTH HAS A QUALITY CONTROL PROBLEMS. A dealer I used to buy from, once said to me that; "we shouldn't have to be MTH's quality control", when I would bring numerous defective products back to him.

Reread your first post on this thread. Are you trying to tell me that you weren't trying to shut down the criticism?


Rick

I don't think he was. I actually think he spoke a lot of truth on that one.

NickyBigBoy,


I think Paul's first statement was sarcastic, and then he went into making excuses. MTH bills itself as being cutting edge, and state of the art in O gauge manufacturing. This is the big league, and feeble excuses don't cut it with me.
I'm talking about the high end, premium product market. In Canada, we are forced to pay more for these products. The F3 set cost me over $850.00, after everything is added up. Excuses don't cut it when your paying that kind of dough.


Rick

So don't pay that kind of dough then. MTH seems prone to little errors, so don't buy from them anymore.

BTW, didn't you see the part about getting the reefer built? That's not an excuse; that's a very qualifying experience IMHO

Omax my first post was not trying to shut anyone up, but I got the distinct impression from the original post that the thread was started to knock MTH for an error based on what the poster had just read in the article in CTT and had not purchased the engine. So I expressed my opinion on how I felt and I wasn't making excuses. If it was Atlas or Lionel or Weaver I would have responded the same way as I own items from all three of them. I have in the 3 years I have been in this hobby acquired over 40 MTH engines both Premier and RailKing and have not come close to having the problems you state that you have had with their equipment. Only one purchase the NS DAP ABBA set had to go back twice, once because the paint was peeling off. MTH repainted the engines at no cost to me. The Lionel engines I have purchased 1 out of 4 had to go back arriving DOA. Both companies made good on their warranties so I have no problem with that and can't expect anything more then that. With the luck you have maybe you ought not to purchase from MTH then. My personal view on the "accuracy" of engines being made differs from those that demand every engine be an exact replica of the real engine. They have valid points to support the way they look at the hobby, as do I in seeing them as "toy trains". To each their own.

Paul,

"To each their own" is exactly the point I was trying to make, when I first posted on this thread. Why not just let modelers blow off some of their frustration on this forum. Big Jim might of had his share of problems, and just
wanted to vent his feelings. I don't see why you, or anybody else on this forum, would have a problem with that.

I've got nothing against you; I would just like to see more tolerance of opinion here.


Rick

quote:

but I got the distinct impression from the original post that the thread was started to knock MTH for an error based on what the poster had just read in the article in CTT and had not purchased the engine.

Get this distinct impression then Mr. VaGolfer,
I call 'em like I see 'em! I don't care if it your precious MTH, another's Lionel or another's Weaver, etc.

And what makes you think that someone HAS to purchase an item before they can complain about it? Get a life mister. It is absolutely none of your business what anybody buys.

There is entirely too much mediocrity going on in the model industry and it NEEDS to be stopped! Unfortunately, MTH has been on the sharp end of this stick for far too long.

Maybe it would be a big help if some big name manufacturers did like Scott Mann of 3rd Rail does and post a photo of the pilot model for all to see and comment on.

It would also be a huge help if manufacturers were to educate themselves and their contractors.

And I might add, kudos to CTT for having the nerve to point out the mistake!

I think the big three or model trains MTH Atlas and Lionel are putting out nice trains. The problems with these trains are the same problems the other big three have Ford, GM, Dodge. They make things too **** complicated!
K.I.S.S is the best method.

quote:

Maybe it would be a big help if some big name manufacturers did like Scott Mann of 3rd Rail does and post a photo of the pilot model for all to see and comment on.

Well at least there is one thing we can agree on.

quote:

It is absolutely none of your business what anybody buys.

Hey Jim, I don't care what you buy or don't buy. If you don't like what MTH, Lionel, Atlas or any company puts out, simply don't buy it.

quote:

Get this distinct impression then Mr. VaGolfer,
I call 'em like I see 'em!

And so do I. Have a good day.

I noticed that Paul and Nicky Big Boy, were of the same opinion, when one voices a complaint; that being, simply don't buy that companies product anymore. Sort of sounds like love it or leave it, to me. If anyone from MTH is reading this thread, is that what you want your dissatisfied customers to do? Do any of you other manufacturers want us to take NickyBigBoy's and Paul's advice? I'd really like to hear the manufacturers opinion on this one.


Rick

quote:

when one voices a complaint; that being, simply don't buy that companies product anymore.

Do you always try to read into what someone says what you think they mean? What I said to you was that if you experience nothing but problems with MTH equipment or don't like the product they sell then don't buy it. If you have a complaint with their products or how they do business then voice it to MTH and go up the ladder there to you either get satisfaction or decide they aren't satisfying your requirements in this hobby. If you want to know what MTH thinks about something pick up the phone and call them. Believe me manufacturers while they may read some of the online Forums some of the time, don't have the time to read each and every post. You might find it less frustrating and more productive. My Dad was a dedicated Ford guy, he had some bad experiences in the 20's with Chevrolet and after buying a Ford stayed with Ford. But I never heard him constantly knocking Chevrolet, he just never bought another one. If you have had all the problems with MTH equipment that you say then why keep buying it is all I am saying. If I had most everything I bought from MTH or Lionel be bad out of the box I wouldn't buy their product anymore as I don't want the aggravation. Have a good day.

It's easy to see Paul is feeling better . I hope you continue to do so.
I side with the idea if you don't like the item the way it was made, don't buy it. The problem is with mail order, as you don't see it before the buy. I think I would order from a business that does allow returns if not satisfied, even for a few dollars more. Sometimes that extra buck is worth it.

People praised MTH for not raising price's in the new catalog. They complained that Lionel and atlas were pricing them out of the hobby, but were stepping up to the plate for better Q.C and scale dimensions. Maybe, just maybe if MTH would raise price's they could hire a Q.C. guy and we won't have these problem's.

Bill

I thought the comparisons and complaints about the Lionel vs MTH UP Heritage engines was just as funny. At least it was in the 3RS forum. I bought the Lionel Mopac unit after direct side by side comparison between it and the MTH and the Lionel unit was hands down the nicer piece. Not even a comparison. Other people complained about the MTH unit having an incorrect sized horn and in the wrong location, they complained about the overly large pilot gap and the wrong trucks. On the Lionel the only complaint I ever saw was the overly large wheel flanges which isn't hard to fix. Even the paint color was better. Still though people on that forum, which btw is a forum where people care about everything about their models until it comes to pizza cutter wheels, complained that their issues with the Lionel engine was with the wheels! The one thing that they aren't supposed to care about! They didn't like the Lionel as much because you couldn't buy it with fixed pilots and scale wheels and that even the MTH 3 rail version had smaller wheel flanges but they were willing to put up with so many other details being plain wrong as opposed to one complaint. The scale wheel conversion and 2 rail capability from MTH is genius though and Lionel could learn from them on that one.

In truth both models looked nice. I prefer the Lionel as it was nicer to me but I was really nitpicking and I'm sure I'm not indicative of the typical buyer. The complaints were silly though and while I would agree that you shouldn't have to fix anything on a $400 piece, at the same time if they did everything correctly then there'd be no market for $1000 units. I consider a $400 engine a mid line engine. Not every company gets everything correct and most people don't complain about most detail issues. Many don't even notice them. In the end it's typically a minority of buyers who nit pick which is why manufacturers don't seem to be listening. Why change if most are happy? It would be nice if they got really obvious things corrected though. When they do, it's typically those little mistakes that turn out to be worth a lot later on.

quote:

Originally posted by NickyBigBoy:
The correct PC "mating worms" never actually touched.

That's true -- theirs was strictly a platonic relationship.

Calling attention to the defect may have served the useful purpose of alerting someone who is planning to purchase one. Offering suggestions on how to fix it could help also. These involve facts. Sadly, much of the rest of this thread is nothing more than opinionated pap and manufacturer/member bashing. (Just my cheerful analysis.)

>

quote:

Originally posted by Big Jim:

quote:

but I got the distinct impression from the original post that the thread was started to knock MTH for an error based on what the poster had just read in the article in CTT and had not purchased the engine.

Get this distinct impression then Mr. VaGolfer,
I call 'em like I see 'em! I don't care if it your precious MTH, another's Lionel or another's Weaver, etc.

And what makes you think that someone HAS to purchase an item before they can complain about it? Get a life mister. It is absolutely none of your business what anybody buys.

There is entirely too much mediocrity going on in the model industry and it NEEDS to be stopped! Unfortunately, MTH has been on the sharp end of this stick for far too long.

Maybe it would be a big help if some big name manufacturers did like Scott Mann of 3rd Rail does and post a photo of the pilot model for all to see and comment on.

It would also be a huge help if manufacturers were to educate themselves and their contractors.

And I might add, kudos to CTT for having the nerve to point out the mistake!

MTH posted photos of the U25B on facebook. I've already helped them catch one error. Getting the right trucks on this model will require many people to email them and tell them to do it right. I don't think the voice of 2 people will change the trucks on it.

quote:

MTH posted photos of the U25B on facebook. I've already helped them catch one error. Getting the right trucks on this model will require many people to email them and tell them to do it right. I don't think the voice of 2 people will change the trucks on it.

Dave I agree with you that the voice of two folks may not turn the tide and get the change made. A lot of guys post on threads on how every detail of an engine must be right, if they all take a minute and view the engine on Facebook, then send MTH an email, that getting a flood of emails will definitely open someones ears there.