Umm, so I bought a Lionel GP-7 off eBay, received it yesterday. Today was the first chance I had to try it out... lights up but the motor doesn't seem to want to move that locomotive!

What to do? I can probably replace the motor? Or is there an "easy" fix that I should try?


Jim.

Need way more info: new, old, road or stock number, conventional, tmcc, etc??? Could be as simple as a switch in wrong place, broken wire, worn out, defective-new-in-box, etc.

My bad... okay the loco is supposedly a new item that sat on the shelf since about 1973. It does appear to be 'new' condition, but has an aged look.

No, I haven't had a chance to go over it to check switch positions.

Let's assume I do, and find everything is 'as-it-should-be', and the motor still won't run. How difficult would it be to acquire a new motor and swap it out?


Oh yeah, and it is a Lionel 8031, GP-7, circa 1973.

Okay, I had a chance to check the loco again and there is a switch on the bottom, forward/reverse I guess. I switched the position and immediately began to get grumbling and stuff out of the motor. It began to herkey-jerk around the track, sparks coming off the center rail contact. It was really flying around the track!
So I backed it off and the slower it went the smoother it got and the sparks pretty much disappeared..

I'm gonna give it a liberal does of oil and try it again after supper!

It could be just about anything.
No offense, but is the e-unit lever in the "on" position?
I'd check for disconnected wires and/or a defective e-unit.
I recently purchased a new, old stock Lionel F3 from that era that had a defective e-unit. Probably the reason it was never used.
I also purchased a new Lionel Diesel in the 1970's that had it's e-unit in pieces, bouncing around inside the loco.
An 8031 has a one piece motor / truck assembly. It could need a cleaning to get it going after sitting so many years. The odds of it actually being bad are rather slim.
Once you isolate the cause of it's problem, be certain to properly lubricate it before using.
By the way, I think the 8031 CN Geep is very sharp looking. My first MPC locomotive purchase, back in 1972-73 was that loco.

The motor is almost infinitely repairable... all parts are readily available.

Check the E-unit first. Go through all the steps - check continuity at every connection.

Easy to change but the motor is built as part of the truck. So you would have to replace the entire front truck.
But start with removing the brushplate and the armature, clean, grease and reinstall. Also put a very light coat of grease on the top end of the armature shaft.

quote:

Originally posted by Demo:
Okay, I had a chance to check the loco again and there is a switch on the bottom, forward/reverse I guess. I switched the position and immediately began to get grumbling and stuff out of the motor. It began to herkey-jerk around the track, sparks coming off the center rail contact. It was really flying around the track!
So I backed it off and the slower it went the smoother it got and the sparks pretty much disappeared..

I'm gonna give it a liberal does of oil and try it again after supper!

Oil SPARINGLY... oil on axles & bearings, grease on gears.

quote:

Oil SPARINGLY... oil on axles & bearings, grease on gears.

No lubricant on any of the e-unit parts, or in the brush tubes.

What's an e-unit?

The metal lever under the frame that locks the reverse unit

quote:

Originally posted by Demo:
What's an e-unit?

E-Units explained here.

Well I don't know what is wrong, but the motor is not running properly at all, and makes un-healthy sounds when it is running. It doesn't seem to be sparking any more but it is not running with the speed that it did when it first came to life. It seems to be running slower and slower!

I have to take a look-see and try to figure out what is wrong, first. If I know for sure what is wrong, well hell, it's just a machine and the parts can either be repaired or replaced.


Question: What about spraying the thing with electrical contact cleaner? Can the groaning and sparking etc be due to rust built up in the motor armature?

If this is an engine that's sat on a shelf for 36 years (!), as you said, no doubt all the grease and oil and lube anywhere in or on the engine and the motor is dryed out and/or caked, and moving parts stiff and friction high. If I sat unmoving for 36 years...well, never mind. If you don't know what an e-unit is, then if I were you I'd take or send the engine to a knowledgeable repairman for a much-needed tune-up.

Demo: what part of the country are you in, is there any toy train shops/repair shops in your area. Like breexinup said; Sounds like the engine is just needs some internal cleaning and lubrication. You wouldn't take a stored '74 Mustang out of dusty garage and expect it to run perfectly without some TLC.

quote:

Originally posted by Demo:

...Question: What about spraying the thing with electrical contact cleaner? Can the groaning and sparking etc be due to rust built up in the motor armature?

I'd take the shell off, and spray the E-unit(the relay-like dealie the lever is attached to) drum and contacts with zero-residue contact cleaner.

IMHO, if you locomotive is new, old stock, contact cleaner isn't going to do anything to correct the problems you are describing.
Is sounds like the electrical contacts in your locomotive, including the brush holders and commutator are oxidized enough to be causing problems. The correct solution is to have the engine cleaned.
There are many self-help articles on how to do a basic cleaning. You can start by reading the instructions that should have been included with your trains.

I still don't have enough information to hazard a guess. Is it a CAN or PullMor powered Geep? Does it have an e-unit or an electronic reverse? Does it have TMCC/RailSounds? What is the cab number/roadname? MagneTraction?

Jon

It sounds to me like the thing probably needs a good oil and lube job. After thirty years the grease it proably all hard from sitting and collecting dust.

Paul

quote:

I still don't have enough information to hazard a guess. Is it a CAN or PullMor powered Geep? Does it have an e-unit or an electronic reverse? Does it have TMCC/RailSounds? What is the cab number/roadname? MagneTraction?

The 8031 was made around 1972. It has a one piece Pullmore geep motor. It may or may not have the scout type rollers, and may or may not have a second set of pickups on the dummy truck. It has a three position mechanical e-unit.
It does not have magnetraction.
That is, unless somebody put the loco together out of pieces. 8031 cabs are fairly common.

CW,

Sorry, I missed that at the bottom of his post. I thought it was part of his signature and ignored it!

Jon

Demo, I sent you some information.
Rob

quote:

Originally posted by C W Burfle:

quote:

I still don't have enough information to hazard a guess. Is it a CAN or PullMor powered Geep? Does it have an e-unit or an electronic reverse? Does it have TMCC/RailSounds? What is the cab number/roadname? MagneTraction?

The 8031 was made around 1972. It has a one piece Pullmore geep motor. It may or may not have the scout type rollers, and may or may not have a second set of pickups on the dummy truck. It has a three position mechanical e-unit.
It does not have magnetraction.
That is, unless somebody put the loco together out of pieces. 8031 cabs are fairly common.

There are pickups on the dummy truck.

quote:

There are pickups on the dummy truck.

Does it have pickups on the power truck?
If so, do they look like little cylinders (rings), turning around plastic pieces sticking into their center?
If so, it's an earlier MPC motor.

Here are the pics. What do you say? On the outside, these are certainly good looking Geeps...

I'd take the motor apart and clean he commuter face, brushes, as well as grease the worm, worm gear, and all the bearings in the motor. Also grease the gears on the power truck. After you do that it should run much smoother and quieter.

Your engine has the revised motor, as identified by the type of pickups.

Do I need to remove both sets of trucks?

It looks like I remove that small split ring and then a Philips screw to pull the trucks. Or should I just be looking to lift the cab unit off and access the motor that way?

As for local train shops, there are ZERO in this area. I might be able to get help from ...Railroaders... in Edmonton...


*...Railroaders...* Is that term correct? What the heck do model railroad guys refer to each other as anyway!?

All PM / tune-up and most repairs can be done without removing the trucks. Removing the shell will give you full access. Carefully remove the handrails from the plastic stanchions and frame, then remove the screws(one at each end) and lift the shell off leaving the railings dangling from the cab.

Well I received my second set (yes...) of CN GP-7s last night, and tonight I finally had a chance to try that Geep out. Well guess what? Nearly identical result, just without the sparks. The motor, or E-unit, produces that same growling sound, that just doesn't sound proper to me. I cannot believe that is what the diesel is supposed to sound like!

I still may try to lift the body off the locomotives and see what some contact cleaner and grease can do. I bought a DVD that shows how to service all Lionel engines sold between 1902 and 1986.

If that doesn't help me, I'm gonna take them to somebody that is familiar with those older Lionel diesels, and see about what they need.

Demo

Those Pullmore motors growl and the E units buzz.
That's just the way they are. You will also notice a different smell when you run them.
Part of their charm.

Now put a new diesel on with can motors and the difference is night and day.

Lube the gears and wheels. Then use a spot of oil at the lower end of the motor shaft and a drop on either side of the rollers, where they join the collector assembly. Don't get oil on the rollers themselves.

Regards
Dave

quote:

Originally posted by David Mondoux:

Those Pullmore motors growl and the E units buzz. That's just the way they are...

Demo: Just for clarity, the E unit doesn't buzz when the lockout lever is set to "off".

quote:

Originally posted by David Mondoux:

...Lube the gears and wheels...

Yeah, from the photos, it appears the wheel gears are bone dry, even though there is some mileage on the wheels.

Demo: Again, I'd start by shooting zero residue tuner cleaner on the E unit drum and contacts. Also spray the motor commutator and brushes. Then oil and lube as suggested. Test run, and get back to us with the results.

Frankly, right now I don't know what the hell I'm doing, or supposed to do. I appreciate all the advice but when guys tell me to lube this or that, I don't know quite where I should be doing the lube.

So I am going to wait until I get that Lionel service DVD and after watching it, then I am going to work over both units. I think that, along with all the info guys have thrown at me, will help immensely. Probably everything guys have suggested will be in there somewhere.

What David Mondoux told me sounds exactly right, since the noise is so similar. I believe he nailed it. I woulda swore that first engine was junk, until I heard this second unit run the same way... well not exactly junk, since it's just a machine and can be fixed.


RoyD... there's an off position!? I wouldn't have known. The switch is not labelled as far as I can tell. Seems like just a 2 position switch and I don't know which way it's supposed to be set...


Jim.

quote:

Originally posted by Demo:

RoyD... there's an off position!? I wouldn't have known. The switch is not labelled as far as I can tell. Seems like just a 2 position switch and I don't know which way it's supposed to be set...

You're right, there are no markings, and there are only the two switch positions. The lockout lever on the E unit simply turns the E unit solenoid on or off, nothing else. The E unit is a sequence switch which controls the motor direction. When the E unit solenoid is turned on by the lockout lever(the buzz is heard,) every time the track current comes on, the E unit cycles the motor to the next setting. For this engine, the setting sequence is forward, neutral, reverse, neutral, and so forth.

If the E unit is off, the motor stays in it's last position. If that was forward, it stays in forward- even when the track current goes off and on again. If that is neutral, the motor won't run, but the headlights come on. Obviously this is useful if you have a display with a stop station, or if you're running two or more motor units in the same train.

quote:

Originally posted by David Mondoux:

Those Pullmore motors growl and the E units buzz.

And, the 8030 & 8031(and most early MPC geep/GP) E units are notoriously loud, resonating off a nearly bare frame inside a nearly empty shell.

When you go to take off the shell by removing the screws at each end of the shell, be VERY careful when you put the screws back on. It is very easy to over tighten them and crack the shell.

The e-unit drum is made of plastic with a series of metal contacts and non-conductive segments around the circumference. These are alternately contacted by four fingers on one side and two on the other. The drum rotates (one step at a time) when track power is cycled off and on by the direction button* on the transformer. The fingers alternately make and break electrical contact with the metal parts of the drum. It's absolutely necessary for the drum to be able to rotate smoothly.

The purpose of the non-residue contact cleaner suggested above is mostly to clean the 6 fingers and their corresponding contact poins on the drum. Make absolutely certain that any contact cleaner is SAFE FOR PLASTICS; otherwise, you may distort the drum or "glue" it in place -- and the e-unit will never run right again. Personally, I'd put off this step in the rehab process until much later. Also,the 6 little contact arms are fragile and should not be touched. They are actually springs, and once they lose contact with the drum it's pretty much over.

When you get the cab separted from the chassis, please post more pictures. Include at least one taken at an oblique angle that shows motor -- especially the "brushplate" at the top.

*Unless the e-unit switch that you found on the bottom of the chassis is in the "off" position, a properly functioning e-unit should cycle in the following sequence every time the power from the track is interrupted, by any means: the direction button on the transformer, the throttle handle moved to zero and up again, the contact rollers losing touch with the track, momentary power loss due to dirty track or a loose wire almost anywhere inside the locomotive, etc., etc. The cycle, which can begin at any of these positions, is forward-neutral-reverse-neutral-forward. Because the e-unit is partly dependent on gravity as well as electricity, it will only function when upright.

Once you get a look at one, you'll quickly see how it works. Essentially it's a "stepper-switch" or "relay" whereby a continuous-duty (normally "on") electro-magnet cuts off briefly. Gravity causes a pawl to drop passed the "teeth" of the drum. When power is reinstated, the pawl moves upward again, grabbing one of little teeth on the drum, and causes it to rotate one step. This in turn results in different combinations of the little fingers contacting the conductive segments of the drum, thereby sending clectrical current to various parts of the motor. Depending on what contacts what, the motor responds by going, forward, reverse, or just sitting there. The way it is wired up, the power to the lights bypasses the e-unit, and, except for a quick blink when the power is interrupted, the lights stay on regardless of the position of the drum.

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Wolverine, wow! That's fantastic info, when I get the cabs of both untis, I will reference this!

Thanks!


Jim.

quote:

Originally posted by wolverine49:

...Make absolutely certain that any contact cleaner is SAFE FOR PLASTICS...

Good point!

I recommend the spray first, given the apparently low usage on the engine. With older conventional locomotives, the first thing keeping them from running is usually the E unit. If the spray works, it saves a lot of work.

quote:

Originally posted by wolverine49:

...Because the e-unit is partly dependent on gravity as well as electricity, it will only function when upright...

That, too.

Demo , did you get the repair information I sent you a few days ago? It covers every question you have. It was a large PDF file.
Rob

oldrob I saw your post that you had sent info but I don't think I received it? Was it sent as an email or as a PM?

It was sent to your private email address in your OGR account. I will resend.
Rob

quote:

Originally posted by oldrob:
It was sent to your private email address in your OGR account. I will resend.
Rob

I don't much care for Personal* Messages and private emails because only one member gets to benefit from the information, and that tends to defeat the purpose of a forum. I for one would enjoy your thoughts, Rob. Anyone else?

*Unless they're truly personal, of course, such as letters from the local infectious diseases division of the county Health Department....

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This message has been edited. Last edited by: wolverine49,

quote:

I don't much care for Personal* Messages and private emails because only one member gets to benefit from the information, and that tends to defeat the purpose of a forum. I for one would enjoy your thoughts, Rob. Anyone else?

Sorry, I cannot post it here for proprietary reasons. It can only be sent privately. Besides, its too big to fit here. Its many pages.
Rob

That's both perfectly clear and perfectly acceptable as far as I'm concerned. My point is merely that if someone responds to a post by any means other than another post, the remainder of the "conversation" should also be conducted in private.

But what do I know? I'm one of those people who goes to a football game and, when a team goes into a huddle, believes that they are talking about him. Will someone please turn down the voices in my head?

>

quote:

My point is merely that if someone responds to a post by any means other than another post, the remainder of the "conversation" should also be conducted in private.

I posted it on this forum because Demo never acknowledged he received it. Sorry you were offended.
Rob

Rob,

I was not "offended" at all. Mine was just a general observation; indeed one that perhaps is more applicable to certain other forums than to this one. I guess I offended you and I didn't intend to. C'est la vie... Can we move on?

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