I operate two loops, one powered by a CW-80 and the other by a Z-1000. When I power up the CW-80 both of my DZ-1011 sensors light up and the grade crossing they operate lights up and drops the gate. This happens as I move the power lever on the CW-80 towards 100% and pass about 3/4 throttle. All other throttle settings act normally. I am using star wiring with common ground (the CW-80 powering lights and accessories) and all else operates normally. Whats happening?

If you remove your CW-80 and swap-in another transformer (i.e., your Z-1000), then how do the Z-stuff items operate?

My guess is that the chopped waveform of the CW-80 is causing it, but hopefully someone more knowledgable than I will confirm this.

Springoflife: Tried that very thing and the sensors acted normally. With a volt meter on the accessory output I get a small increase in voltage when the sensors begin to misbehave. I would tend to agree with your chopped wave form diagnosis. Thanks.

budgerman,

You and the others may well have solved your problem; but I will again submit that one cannot talk sense about "the CW-80" without specifying -- as a minimum -- whether he has an original version or a revised one. While not always true in all layout configurations, SOMETIMES this factor makes all the difference.

I tried to warn a "newbie" about this several days ago and he seemed to have no interest. If he has an original version it will likely jump up and bite him in the hindquarters before he gets very far into the hobby. It could even be part of your problem. I don't normally recommend combining any version of the CW-80 with any MTH product.

Just for the halibut, I took a lap through the EBAY site and looked at the published specifications for several of the many CW-80's that are offered for sale there. Not one of them indicated whether theirs was an original or a revised one. No one even asked how to distinguish between the two
types. Caveat emptor!

If someone does, I hope another member of the forum will reply, as it should be widespread knowledge by now; and frankly I am tired to whipping this horse.

>

I have a CW-80 that i use only for my test bench. please update me on the differences between the models and the deficiencies.


jim r

quote:

Originally posted by DADA1043:
...please update me on the differences between the models and the deficiencies.


jim r

In a nutshell...:

-If the date code on the bottom is 4 digits, the RED terminals are common.
-If the date code on the bottom is a letter("G", eg.) & 4 digits, the BLACK terminals are common.

This major difference is probably the issue with the original poster's problem.

Rob:

Date code is G plus four digits. Therefore I can assume black terminals are common. Good thing that's the way its wired to the layout. However, I still don't know if its an early or late model. Lionel lists two separate manuals, 2/03 and 6/08. With a date code of G0307 can I assume the unit is an early model?

quote:

Originally posted by budgerman:
Rob:

Date code is G plus four digits. Therefore I can assume black terminals are common. Good thing that's the way its wired to the layout. However, I still don't know if its an early or late model. Lionel lists two separate manuals, 2/03 and 6/08. With a date code of G0307 can I assume the unit is an early model?

You are correct that with the revised ones the BLACK terminals are common, but incorrect in your assumption. Yours is a revised model.* That is the major difference in the "big" revision that arrived some time in 2006. Don't worry about the "Made in China" date per se: it's the presence or absence of the "G" that is significant.

The five-digit date-codes beginning with G are ALL revised ones. The four digit numerical codes are the old, original, non-revised, problematic ones. That's all there is to it. You have lucked out!

The two manuals do indeed reflect the original vs. the revised versions. Make sure you download and reference the proper one for your transformer. For a long time the manuals were as confused and conflicting as the transformers themselves. I think they are pretty much correct now, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it...

*What I refer to as early or original (as opposed to revised) is no doubt over-simplistic. Lionel constantly revises its products and (annoyingly) seldom if ever tells anybody about it. But for the CW-80, the revised models, the ones with the G, are so significantly different from the original ones, that it is useful for general information to refer to original vs. revised. Since Lionel was not forthcoming with information about the revision forums actually did surveys to determine how to distinguish the new ones. The "test" mentioned here worked 100 per cent of the time, although there is always the possiblity of an occasional factory error even in the ones marked G. I haven't seen any such examples, though.

If anyone has an original version, and it works for you, keep and enjoy it. It is only in certain circumstances that the revision is significant. But when either the device dies, or you try certain kinds of hook-ups and can't make them work for the life of you, you'll wish you had a revised one. If you try to use either version with MTH products you may be in for a disappointment. CW-80's of all flavors are NOT recommended for MTH stuff, although sometimes they will work.

For those of you who persistently refuse to believe anything I write, "ADCX Rob" is an authoritative source, and has posted above.

>

quote:

With a date code of G0307 can I assume the unit is an early model?

No.

G0307 is the later, revised model.

quote:

Not one of them indicated whether theirs was an original or a revised one.

Sometimes the listings include an image of the bottom and you can read the date code yourself. Otherwise, one should click the button for "ask the seller".

quote:

Originally posted by Rail Reading:

quote:

With a date code of G0307 can I assume the unit is an early model?

No.

G0307 is the later, revised model.

quote:

Not one of them indicated whether theirs was an original or a revised one.

Sometimes the listings include an image of the bottom and you can read the date code yourself. Otherwise, one should click the button for "ask the seller".

Excellent advice, but do NOT ask the seller whether he is offering an original or a revised model. Chances are that he won't know squat about the revision or the significance thereof. Instead insist that he provide the Made in China date-code and draw your own conclusion. If you are truly paranoid (as I am) write the date code your check or money order so that he can be held responsible if what he actually ships to you happens to be an original version.

>

Can someone explain what the problem was with the earlier versions of the CW80, and what Lionel did to correct it? As one poster has indicated the positive and negative (common) terminals are reversed on the older models, is this the big difference?

REV

quote:

Originally posted by revitupfaster:
Can someone explain what the problem was with the earlier versions of the CW80, and what Lionel did to correct it? As one poster has indicated the positive and negative (common) terminals are reversed on the older models, is this the big difference?

REV

That issue is the big one... there is no positive & negative, however. The use of red & black posts was compounding the issue that the "A" & "B" were common, and the 2 "U" posts were not.

This caused all sorts of problems when trying to use track trip activated accessories powered by the programmable accessory output of the CW, like in the original post above.

Ignoring the labeling & colors of the terminals, you could work around the problem, which switched the functions of the whistle & bell buttons... : the whistle button works as always, push it and it works. The bell button, though, has a timed latching feature that holds the signal to the track after you release it. All that happens now is that you can't hit the whistle/horn for a quick blurt as you are using the bell button for activation.

quote:

Originally posted by revitupfaster:
Can someone explain what the problem was with the earlier versions of the CW80, and what Lionel did to correct it? As one poster has indicated the positive and negative (common) terminals are reversed on the older models, is this the big difference?

REV

Yes, that the big difference. What Lionel did was tell the clowns at the factory in China to stop wiring them that way and start wiring them the right way. And they revised the Manual to reflect this change, although they still keep both old and new manuals on their website.

Lionel also insisted on better quality control, and evidently made other technical (parts) changes inside the case. The dead-on-arrival and early-failure problems of the original versions have been all but eliminated.

Now, lest you think the correction of the wiring of the outpt terminals is not significant, let me assure you that it is -- under certain circumstances. In simple, single-loop starter sets, this factor doesn't really matter. Wire your original ones up any way you wish. But as soon as you start using the accessory taps to provide power to switches, or try to wire some other accessories, or combine early CW's with other transformers on the layout, or any of a myriad other common layout wiring schemes, especially those that use the desireable "common-ground" system, the wheels start coming off the cart. You can then try a "workaround" which simply involves switching the wires on the back of the transformer, but then you may reverse the function and operation of the whistle and bell buttons. In a phrase, in addition to being notoriously unreliable, the original CW-80's made it painfully easy to cross-wire (create a short-circuit) at any spot on the layout. This is particularly problematic with accessories that have metal bases that they use as their "ground" or "common".

The revised ones have fixed all that and more. I have considerable personal experience with both the original and revised versions, and suggest that unless you get an irresistably low price and a factory warranty, stay well away from the original ones. (One exception: If, and it's a big if, you buy a factory-sealed one from an authorized Lionel dealer, and it fails within the warranty period, Lionel will replace it, and the replacement will almost certainly be a revised one. Keep your receipt!)

That's by no means all, but it should be enough.

>

quote:

what the problem was with the earlier versions of the CW80, and what Lionel did to correct it? As one poster has indicated the positive and negative (common) terminals are reversed on the older models, is this the big difference?

There may have been quality control problems when they first came out with too many being dead-on-arrival. That seems to be solved.

The swapped polarity (compared to traditional Lionel transformers) is the main difference, and if one just uses a single transformer, not a problem.
If you use a pre-revision CW-80 with a conventional transformer, and you make sure that they are in-phase, you should be okay, too.

But, if to make them be in phase, you put the red terminal to the outside rail, then the CW-80 "Bell" and "Whistle" buttons will be swapped. Again, not a major problem, but perhaps confusing. Alternatively, you can swap the leads on the other transformer, but then its whistle button is a bell button.

I think that MTH loco-s didn't like the reveaws polarity, but I really don't know about MTH. Maybe they didn't like the chopped wave-form that is used to control voltage.

So it is kind of a mess, and the reason that the revised ones are more valued.

The revised ones are good, lower power transformers.

I think we cleared the fact that the OP's problem has nothing to do with the version of his CW-80.

Can we state with any certainty that his problem is due to the chopped sine wave?

I guess either way, the solution is to get a different transformer, or keep the accessories completely isolated (electrically).

Keeps looking that way doesn't it?

Bud