Hi guys,
Do you think the new Lionel Santa Fe F3 Conventional Classics are going to be collectable and better to have in the long run, or do you think the Williams By Bachmann Santa Fe F3 is the best way to go? Which do you guys think is the better made and who has the best quality? Please, any advice would help!!!
Thank you!

If you want it to run, buy Willaims.

Lionel has made so many re-releases of the F3, how could any of them be collectable? It would be like GM releasing the 1969 Camaro body style every few years.

I would get both.....

Get the Lionel set and tuck it away. With all the neet wraping and box...just think you will own a Mint in the Box engine....something to drewl over.

Buy the Williams Santa Fe F3 to run, and run and run and run and run...........

Tex

quote:

Originally posted by CSX Fan 1970:
Hi guys,
Do you think the new Lionel Santa Fe F3 Conventional Classics are going to be collectable and better to have in the long run, or do you think the Williams By Bachmann Santa Fe F3 is the best way to go? Which do you guys think is the better made and who has the best quality? Please, any advice would help!!!
Thank you!

If the new GG-1s are any indication then cosmetically they are both excellent but mechanically there is no comparison. The new Lionel has poor tolerances and uses cheap metal. Give Lionel points for the horn and bell but like Marty says if you want it to run get a Williams or a real Post War version.

Pete

I have the Willams F3s and am very happy with them

The Williams F3s if you want to run them. Neither product will be collectible.

I agree with Jaabat, I don't think either one will become collectible. They are making so many and the people that are buying are, for the most part, taking care of them so in the long run there will be fewer and fewer collectible pieces being made now-a-days. Just my 2 cents.

Paul

How old are you?

Why do I ask?

Just look at what is worth the most money today on the collector market. Are you young enough to wait 50 - 60 - 70 years for trains to be worth any real money? Maybe never. If you take the same amount of money and put it in the bank at a lousy 3% interest it will probably be worth more in the long run.

Buy either, prefer Williams, and run them. Enjoy them now.

Personally I would buy the williams because I could buy (almost)2 for what the lionels would set you back

We already know the Williams run good so the question is will Lionel try to fix the things people have complained about in the last release. My CC GG1 runs fine but I do not like the rubber tires. So which one? either, both will be fun to have and run.

Owen answered that question perfectly. If you want to buy something to invest in, buy gold. If you want to have fun and enjoy yourself, buy trains.

Personally I would do the Williams. Much less operational problems unless you like the Pullmore motors and they are important to you.

Dale H

I endose all the comments above regarding Bachmann Williams. If you are operating 3 rail trains, Bachmann Williams is the way to go. At my age I can not wait 20 or 30 years for these trains too increase in value. It means little to me. I run em, an run em. Love it. Purchase to run and enjoy these products, you will not be dispointed.

Many thanks,

Billy C

the williams pilot on the f3 drives me nuts

quote:

the williams pilot on the f3 drives me nuts

Can you elaborate?

Fred

Go with the Williams ,they're the Old Reliables

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Brenek:

quote:

the williams pilot on the f3 drives me nuts

Can you elaborate?

Fred

well for a postwar knock-off, they use a different pilot. I just want the plane jain flat pilot just like the postwar models.

The Lionel conventional classics had large production runs, I doubt that they will become collectables in our lifetime.

quote:

well for a postwar knock-off, they use a different pilot. I just want the plane jain flat pilot just like the postwar models.

Did they use the flat pilot on any of the Golden Memories engines?

I know they used the contoured one on the Traditional Line. The TL ones stick out too far and I'm planning on modifying them to bring them in closer. I know I would like the option of a flat pilot as well because that is what the PRR had on most of its F and E units.

Fred

Fred,

All Williams F3's use the same pilot - both Golden Memories and Traditional line.

The top 3 F3's in the photo are Williams. The second from the bottom is an MTH premier F7, and the bottom is Lionel (1990 vintage). I don't think the Williams pilot sticks out much farther. It just doesn't wrap around the front curve of the engine as much.

It's not important enough to me to avoid Williams. I also have a CP and a Wabash set in addition to these and all run extremely well.

The running qualities of the new Lionel CC F3's are an unknown since they aren't out yet. I don't think it's fair to make any comparison between these and the other CC engines already produced. Time will tell. In the meantime, run Williams F3's. They are great, especially the one I equipped with Electric RR Co. TMCC cruise commander and sound commander boards.



Jim

Jim,

I've got no qualms with Williams. I think they're the best bang for the buck from an operators perspective. I've got several and consider them stump pullers. These are toys of course, so there's room for compromise.

But, times being what they are, I've taken to modifying things without any regards to resale - since darn near nothing appears to be selling on the Buy/Sell. And, I've never seen so much for sale. Must be 10-15 new posts a day. It's a buyer's market for serious bargains if you've got the green.

Fred

Fred,
I totally agree that there's nothing wrong with doing modifications on any modern era products. I'm constantly making changes that have my collector friends scratching their heads. I don't consider very many products produced after 1969 to be collectible. As has been said, it may happen in the future (and probably to the most unlikely of products), but I won't live long enough to see it.

As far as any modifications that make them look better to you - go for it!

Jim

to each his own I guess- the original lionel pilot is burned in my brain so any repo has to, in my mind, have a similar pilot

What were exactly all the quality control issues seen with the lionel classics? I've found horn issues (I hate the dinky electronic horn anyway)- any other problems? Motor probelms etc?

See, Now we start to change the subject and talk about pilots, Let's keep this on track! I feel the same as everybody else about Williams, there indestructable, low/no maintaince, hard running units. For the money you save buying Williams, you can get a real nice sound system from ERR Co. and still have bucks in the pocket to buy a boxcar or something, as to going out and getting a Lionel.

quote:

Originally posted by CSX Fan 1970: Do you think the new Lionel Santa Fe F3 Conventional Classics are going to be collectable and better to have in the long run...

I don't think the Conventional Classics will be collectors items. The reason old trains are collectable now is because people did not know that they would be when they bought them and most were played with at that time. Therefore, it is difficult to find certain old trains in mint condition. Now too many people speculate and years from now there will be many mint or new items with all the packaging etc. A few years ago it seemed like everybody was collecting Hot Wheels cars and leaving them in the package. Baseball cards too, the list goes on and on. When we were kids, we played with our trains and hot wheels cars, and attached baseball cards to our spokes with clothespins. I think the collector value of modern items is diminished by overproduction and speculation. Whatever you buy, buy it to run and don't worry about future value. Chances are a year from now it will only bring about half of what you paid for it...If you are lucky.
Jeff Davis

I wasn't trying to change the subject- to me if I want a postwar repo- which the lionel cc f3 and the williams f3 are 2 postwar repos, their authenticity (visually) is important. The lack of an authentic postwar pilot is a 'deal breaker' for me and williams.

acid,
You're right about the postwar repro angle. The pilot is definitely out of character with the repro billing.

The same seems to be true for a lot of so-called repro items. Even Lionel in their Postwar Celebration Series did some strange things. In their 2383 Santa Fe red stripe passenger set, their so-called repro of the 2383 F3 diesels had the front grab irons, screened roof, and open portholes of an earlier 2343 instead. About all that made it look somewhat like the 2383 was the black instead of silver trucks. Or are they not really aimed at collectors who will notice these things?

Makes one scratch their head.

Jim

quote:

What were exactly all the quality control issues seen with the lionel classics? I've found horn issues (I hate the dinky electronic horn anyway)- any other problems? Motor probelms etc?

Read this months OGR magazine for the answers. Both of mine did the things theirs did. One of mine could not be run at all in reverse. Sent that junker back and spent many hours fixing the other one. Should have returned it for refund too.
Your losing out by being against the front pilot of Williams. Best engines on the market for the money. There is a company that was advertising Williams with the correct postwar pilots installed.
They never answered any emails.
Rob

This message has been edited. Last edited by: oldrob,

Got my Santa Fe F3 Red and Silver passenger set today from Micro-Mark. Good runner and nice looking for the price.
Al

I'm running the WBB Katy Heritage, and earily Williams UP SD90's on a passenger train with the 2245C (TS B unit) and 60 TX SP 15" Williams cars.

Don't have the F's. But am runnng the above with 2 180 bricks to a TPC 300. Only thing you hear is are the wheels gong over switches and where the tracks join. Sound system In itself.

Go. Go Great Northen. And WBB!

quote:

Originally posted by Serows1:
I agree with Jaabat, I don't think either one will become collectible. They are making so many and the people that are buying are, for the most part, taking care of them so in the long run there will be fewer and fewer collectible pieces being made now-a-days. Just my 2 cents.

Paul

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I agree Paul, but I would add that there is not a growing young market that will offer big bucks for items they once dremt of when they where kids.

Getting back to the Williams F3 pilot thing. I think I figured out the problem. Looks like Williams took a short cut and used the E7's pilot on the F3's instead of tooling up the correct pilot. This is probably why it sticks out too far as well. Someone with both the E7 and the F3 can probably verify this is the case.

Maybe we can get Bachmann to do up a corrected smooth pilot that fixes the front truck/pilot spacing as well. I wouldn't mind paying for it. It would be nice to have the option of buying a pilot that fixes the issue with the turn of couple of screws.

Fred

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Brenek:
Getting back to the Williams F3 pilot thing. I think I figured out the problem. Looks like Williams took a short cut and used the E7's pilot on the F3's instead of tooling up the correct pilot. This is probably why it sticks out too far as well. Someone with both the E7 and the F3 can probably verify this is the case.

Maybe we can get Bachmann to do up a corrected smooth pilot that fixes the front truck/pilot spacing as well. I wouldn't mind paying for it. It would be nice to have the option of buying a pilot that fixes the issue with the turn of couple of screws.

Fred

No shortcut Fred. Before the Golden Memories series came out the Fs had smooth pilots. Some of us actually prefer the freight pilots. With Lionel now making their own repros with Pullmors why should Williams change? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Pete

One major consideration is color shades. On some of Williams engines the colors do not match Lionels or anyone elses. As far as value I doubt that will change much. If you sell, less for Williams than for Lionel. Price increase, doubtful.

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Brenek:
Getting back to the Williams F3 pilot thing. I think I figured out the problem. Looks like Williams took a short cut and used the E7's pilot on the F3's instead of tooling up the correct pilot. This is probably why it sticks out too far as well. Someone with both the E7 and the F3 can probably verify this is the case.

Maybe we can get Bachmann to do up a corrected smooth pilot that fixes the front truck/pilot spacing as well. I wouldn't mind paying for it. It would be nice to have the option of buying a pilot that fixes the issue with the turn of couple of screws.

Fred

No shortcut Fred. Before the Golden Memories series came out the Fs had smooth pilots. Some of us actually prefer the freight pilots. With Lionel now making their own repros with Pullmors why should Williams change? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Pete

If it is broke, can they fix it? I'm sorry but I have a hard time loving williams postwar f3 mockups if they have a completely different pilot- if they would have a 'postwar accurate' pilot they would be so much more appealing- but I know others disagree...

quote:

Some of us actually prefer the freight pilots. With Lionel now making their own repros with Pullmors why should Williams change? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Didn't mean to start a ruckus. I wouldn't mind the freight pilot if it didn't protrude so far ahead of the nose and it didn't leave such a wide gap between the front truck and the rear of the pilot. So, technically, it is still broke because it almost makes the F3 look like it has got buck teeth. I've already looked at pulling it back and redrilling the casting to correct this. But, I have the PC versions and they all appear to have had the smooth and flush pilots.

If someone has an early Williams F3 with the "passenger" pilot, would you be so kind as to post a photo of it? I could then forward the photo on to Bachmann and see if they can supply me with the part that I desire.

Also, I would still like to know if the new F3 pilot really is an E7 pilot. So, if someone's got both, would you please take a look and chime in?

Thanks,

Fred

Fred, I doubt Bachmann has any or the old parts. Most were sold off before the transfer. Try this guy. He supposedly is the one who bought most of the stock.

Model Trains Outlet
5570 Chambers Hill Rd, Harrisburg, PA 17111-2507
Phone: (717) 564-8633

Also, what about using a Lionel pilot?

Pete

quote:

Also, what about using a Lionel pilot?

Pete,

Some MPC ones turned up on the 'bay and I did bid on them - and lost. But, it looks like they would require significant modification at the mounting points.

In worst case scenario, I can modify the existing pilot mounts to move the pilot back under the front of the loco, and then create a wrapper of either sheet brass or sytrene to go around the freight pilot.

Thanks for the Harrisburg contact. I will try to call early this week.

Fred

F-3's have been done to death. If your looking at these as an investment forget it. I have both and both are great runners.