 |
||
 |
 |
 |
|
||
|
|
|
 |
6-32930 ZW and PowerHouse Power Supply Set
|
|||
|
 |
^ I see that transformer in the DVD and I have read that it is a favorite. But why? I can buy 3 of the new 80W transformers for the price of 1 ZW unit.
Why the ZW? What are the advantages of it? |
|||
|
The CWs are pretty much a starter set transformer. Nothing wrong with them but MTH PS1 and I think PS2 engines will not run correctly with them,since they put out a chopped sine wave. A modern ZW with 2 bricks would offer 360 watts of power. Two CWs would offer 180 watts of power. The modern ZWs offer a lot of extra power for expansion and accessory power with 4 convenient throttles in one place. 2 more bricks could be added later expanding capacity to 720 watts. No need to worry about phasing. However if you never plan to use MTH locos,the CWs will work for you.
Dale H Another fine product of the Cleveland Public School system. |
||||
|
|
|
Are the ZW's still made? I thought they were not and so the ones you do buy may require repairs... ?
I don't intend to run MTH at this time anyway. Lionel trains are okay aren't they? |
|||
|
You are confusing the post war ZWs with the modern ones Lionel now makes. However a postwar ZW in good condition is another option. That certainly would run 2 trains. For engines with modern electronics I would install a 10 amp fuse in line to the hot to each loop and a TVS for each loop regardless of transformer selected. A TVS removes harmful voltage spikes to modern electronics.
Dale H Another fine product of the Cleveland Public School system. |
||||
|
Remember, if you use 2 CW-80's you will need to phase them together to avoid dreaded short circuits. With a ZW you do not need to worry about phasing. If all you will ever want to have is 2 simple loops then the CW-80s will work fine as long as you do not have MTH locos. If you have MTH Locos then go with MTH Z-1000 transformers instead of CW-80s.
From reading your recent posts you do not seem to be the type of person who will be satisfied for long with 2 simple loops. My recommendation is to go with the Lionel ZW. You can find them on e-bay for a good price and sometimes you can find the ZW controller by itself for which you can buy the bricks separately. And, yes....install a fuse! ---Greg |
||||
|
|
|
^ Dale, thanks for the quick replies!
So I can go on eBay and find modern Lionel ZW transformers? |
|||
|
|
||||
|
Probably,but it would be used with no guarantee. So you may or may not get a bargain. www.justrains.com has some of the best prices around and may have new ones in stock. Price listed there is $399,I think shipped so if you do the Ebay route you have a price guide as to the cost of a new one. Another option is the MTH z4000 transformer. It has built in volt and amp meters. It has more gadgets but Lionel gives you more wattage. Both transformers are excellent with good breakers.
Dale H Another fine product of the Cleveland Public School system. |
||||
|
|
|
^ Wow, those babys are not cheap, eh!?
 It's nice to know what to look for! Hey guys thanks for the info! |
|||
|
good luck Demo.
Dale H Another fine product of the Cleveland Public School system. |
||||
|
Some of the math above is a little off. Each CW-80 will produce 80 volt-amps (watts, more or less) or 5 amps. Therefore, two of them will produce 160 volt-amps or 10 amps.
Despite all the posts on this subject over the past several years, it is still not completely clear which MTH locomotives will play nice with the CW-80's and which will not. Some will. It is the version of ProtoSounds that seems to make the difference. In any event, if you decide to go the multiple* CW-80 route, be sure to get the REVISED versions -- the ones with the "G" prefix to the Made in China date. The earlier version was problematic on several levels. EBAY is full of them at very tempting prices, but buyer beware. * I like the redundancy inherent in multiple transformers. You really ought to search the archives of this forum, and better yet the the CTT forum because the threads last much longer over there; But don't read just one or two or you may be seriously misled. Many of the "anti CW-80 posts" are misinformed, out of date, and/or simply malicious. I use mine for conventional operation only. > |
||||
|
|
|
^ Well one obvious advantage of the 80W transformer is that I already have one; that came with my Polar Express set. So with another one, I could be set.
I will definitely look into this some more and price check these ZWs. |
|||
|
Why not buy 2 Rail King Z1000 100 watt transformers? You could get 2 for 100.00 if you watch Ebay. They run anything I own including two powered F3 engines at a time. Most people who run what Demo wants do not really need the big transformers.
Rob |
||||
|
|
|
Speaking about going big, I remember buying a 16' fishing boat, back the day. I was going from a 14' model and that 16 footer seemed huge. First time I went fishing with it, I wished I had bought a bigger boat! So I can relate to that.
Btw, on that DVD, they have 2 ZW transformers, and the guy had to "phase" them. So when you say they don't require phasing, you are obviously talking about running a single ZW transformer. I suspect I will buy the ZW, after some "tire kicking"... |
|||
|
|
|
Anytime you have more than one, making sure they are phased is a must.
Having said that, you can power 4 lines with 180 watts each with the ZW before needing another. That's a whole lot of track and goodies before you ever have to worry about running out of power or deal with phasing issues! Bigger is better. Women just lie to make us feel better!  |
|||
|
|
|
^ Mike, in that DVD I bought from TM Video, they build a 8'x16' layout, with multiple lines and trains and the guy hooks it up with 2 ZW transformers. He shows how to pahse those ZWs. So I guess you gotta do it with any transformers, no matter how big they are.
|
|||
|
You can buy 8 to 12 CW's(640 to 960 VA) for the street price of a new ZW(360 VA - the next 360 VA will set you back another $150). Rob Proprietor, Manchester Midland & Adirondack Regional Railroad |
||||
|
Aren't the power cord plugs on CW-80 polarized? And that means that as long as you are plugging into modern wall sockets or extension cords, that the output posts are already in phase?
Which means only that you have to keep the common posts (likely, the "U" posts) together? |
||||
|
You would think so, at least with the code "G" revisions. But how consistent the Chinese production lines are is anybody's guess. Rob Proprietor, Manchester Midland & Adirondack Regional Railroad |
||||
|
 |
I believe the power supply plus on the original PWCS ZW were out of phase with the separate sale power supplies too!
Jon 
|
|||
|
Demo.......I was in your position about 2 years ago. Just starting to buy things for a proposed layout. I spent a lot of time researching and analyzing where I wanted to go, and what I would need down the road.
Even before I had my track, I purchased a new ZW with the 2 180 Bricks, while at the same time had a Lionel set on order which included a CW80. My theory is that I will use 2 of the channels of the ZW for track power. The other 2 ZW channels, and the CW will be used for accessory power. This should give me enough for the forseeable future. I also purchased a Legacy control system along with the ZW, because I also decided that I would stay strictly with Lionel Command Control, this way, not having to deal with any of the wiring issues required with conventional trains. From what I have read of your posts, you should take a step back, and think through where you want to go with this hobby. Don't rush into things, and as you said in one of your posts, "I want to buy everything I see". Plan ahead, otherwise, you will be buying stuff, you wish you hadn't, and this will cost you more in the long run. Just like you said with the boat, the disease is called "2 Foot itus" REV |
||||
|
Jon, the 135's provided with the PWC were OK, it was the first run of the 180's that were out of phase. Lionel still has a bulletin on the website addressing this. Rob Proprietor, Manchester Midland & Adirondack Regional Railroad |
||||
|
|
|
|
|||
|
|
|
So what I have kinda decided to do, short term, is to go ahead and acquire a second Lionel 80W transformer to go along with the 80W transformer that I already have.
I am going to build a double loop layout, but separate each loop. So I will run each loop off one 80W transformer. I will evaluate the performance running like this. I am aware of the need to supply power to the track every 6-8 sections or so (or is that enough?). I am sure I can run quite satisfactorily like that, with the 2 80W transformers. I may find them adequate. Besides, I still need to put this thing together to learn proper wiring and stuff and I think it will be good to start off simple. Then by keeping them separate, I don't have to fuss phasing them or anything, at least for now. Down the road, I see myself buying the big ZW transformer. I already know... "I wants it..."  |
|||
|
That's not the route I would recommend going UNLESS you're going to stick with Lionel motive power exclusively (definitely do not try to operate MTH and even some other brands with the CW80). Personally, I would go with a couple of MTH Z1000 transformers if I was intent on staying with smaller and more affordable power supplies (use your existing CW80 to power accessories), and I would go with either a new Lionel ZW or an MTH Z4000 if/when I wanted or needed a larger power supply. Allan Miller, Editor-In-Chief O Gauge Railroading magazine |
||||
|
|
|
^ Alan are you saying the CW80 isn't even good to power accessories?
I only intend to run this as i figure stuff out. I do intend to upgrade to a Lionel ZW 32930 transformer and then the second CW80 would just be for lights/accessories. I am not considering buying MTH (or any other) any time soon. My bad... |
|||
|
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pardon me if I quote myself, in part: Many of the "anti CW-80 posts" are misinformed, out of date, and/or simply malicious. --wolverine49, from a post earlier in this thread. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IMHO, Allan Miller is the undisputed world-champion of the "anti CW-80" posters on this forum. Research his posts. Although there is generally some truth in what he says, what you generally won't get is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but -- and he knows it. Demo, I thought you already have a CW-80. If so, you must already know that it will run most trains (with a very few exceptions*) and certainly will power accessories. The "programmable fixed-voltage" output is a great feature. There are other good transformers out there too. It's true that the CW-80's got off to a poor start six or so years ago, but the ones with the "G" prefix to the Made in China date, starting about mid 2006, are competent and fun devices. Be certain to study your Owner's Manual carefully and post questions about anything that you don't understand. The CW-80 is unlike any transformer that Lionel built in the past. Some folks continue to remind us that the CW-80 is non-repairable. That's pretty much true; but what they don't tell you is that if one goes bad during it's full-year warranty period, Lionel will replace it with no fuss, no bother, and very prompt shipping. That's what I mean about posting something that has a kernel of truth but less than the whole truth. Such posts are very misleading. * I have conventional locomotives by Lionel, Williams, and MTH and the only thing in my collection (which is far from "complete") that my CW-80's won't run is one MTH-RailKing loco from 1996. I also have Lionel 1032, 1033, 1044, KW and two post-war ZW transformers. In day-to-day use, however, I run the CW-80's, as does my granddaughter to power her Hogwarts set and several postwar Lionel locomotives. If and when you can afford to get a large "super transformer," by all means do so. In the interim, it might make sense to try an MTH Z-1000 or Z-750. You may gain something, but you slso may lose something. But don't base your decision about CW-80's based soley on Allan Miller's "thoughts" on the subject. > |
||||
|
|
|
^ Wolverine I bought a Polar Express set last christmas and of course ran that 40"x60" loop, using the CW80.
I don't understand any of the stuff about the programmable output; I just wired the train to it... no accessories. Last year the buildings that I had with my christmas display, were on a separate wall circuit, just a cheap simple light string. From watching the DVD, that I bought, on how to build a model train layout, I definitely will look at buying small lights from Radio Shack, to light my buildings, and then wiring them to run off the accessory power of the transformer. I appreciate all of the suggestions I have received on this! Jim. |
|||
|
No, I didn't say that at all--just the opposite, in fact. Use your CW80 to power your accessories. HOWEVER, since you're sticking with Lionel trains exclusively, and there's certainly nothing wrong with that, go ahead and use your CW80s to power the whole shooting match--trains and accessories. You should have no problems whatsoever with that arrangement. Allan Miller, Editor-In-Chief O Gauge Railroading magazine |
||||
|
And that whole truth would be? If there has been a more problematic and written about transformer than the CW80, I'm not aware of it. That IS the truth. And if you're ever planning to operate MTH (in particular) and certain other trains with the CW80, you might want to seriously reconsider your power source. MTH, for example, does not recommend or list the CW80 for use with any of their trains. They provide a list of some 23 possible transformers that will work just fine with each and every one of their locomotives, and the CW80 is not on that list. THAT is also the truth. Now, since Demo more recently posted that he's just going to be running Lionel trains, you'll note that my response, above, indicates that he should be fine with his current CWs. Allan Miller, Editor-In-Chief O Gauge Railroading magazine |
||||
|
That is true, Allan. Even I couldn't figure out how Demo got that message from your post. However, it does illustrate a point that I have been making for years: the "CW-80 well" has been poisoned to the point where one has to be extremely cautious that what he says doesn't simply add to the all the horse-hockey that has accumulated over the past six years or so. (Please ignore scrambled metaphor.) BTW, did you ever actually try your new revised version CW-80 that came with a set that you purchased? Back in August, as I recall, you posted that you were going to.... > |
||||
|
|
|
IMHO -- If a CW comes with a set I wanted and bought, I would find a use for it. However, with all the issues (perceived and/or real) I would not intentionally seek to add a CW supply.
It would also appear Charles Ro doesn't carry CW-80s for customers. I personally take that as another indicator. There just seems to be no good reason to risk it with all other options and price points. Eric |
|||
|
Allan, you're hopeless. Just when I extend the tip of an olive branch, you go off again.
First of all, to the very best of my knowledge, MTH has never said that none of their locomotives will run when powered by a CW-80. They simply have not listed it as one that did. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Am I wrong? As I have posted repeatedly, I personally run several MTH locos perfectly well with my CW-80's, and many other members have posted similar results. The truth is, some will run, some won't. Why can't you acknowledge that instead of putting your blatantly misleading spin on it? Yes, the CW-80 has received more posts than any other device that I can think of, and much of it has been crap -- crap that has been repeated again and again, as if BS, repeated dozens of times, comes to equal truth. We've seen that kind of thinking many times* but eventually the truth will out. Further, you, and a great many many others, keep referring to "the" CW-80 when you know perfectly well that the Revised version, now fully three years old, is a much improved device in several significant ways. Due to your editorial position, you could have adopted a neutral stance, evaluating assertions and ensuring that the facts emerged. You haven't done so, and you ought to be ashamed of yourself. I stand behind all of my posts on this subject, and challenge you to find anything that I have said that is untrue or even remotely unfair. Several years ago I began posting about "the" CW-80 soley to try to help those folks who already owned one but clearly didn't understand its features and foibles. From the get-go, your posts have been almost exclusively of the type, "no matter how much you already have invested in a CW-80, trash it and buy an MTH Z-1000." In today's posts you seem to have eased up just a little. Rather late in the game, it seems to me. I'm sure you recall your "clever" comparisons with boat-anchors, door-stops, book-ends, and the like, which go back to well before you became Editor-in-Chief. Not to mention your obvious support for others who posted similar thoughtless vitriol. I do -- and have hard-copies of much of it; but even when Lionel revised the CW-80 you never skipped a beat. As you know, today's "exchange of views," whether ultimately deleted or not, is likely to see new and extended life in a thread known as the "OGR C*****r" on another forum, where increasing numbers of the members of this forum are showing up -- even when they have not done anything to get kicked out of here. Ever wonder whether your playing fast-and-loose with facts has anything to do with this phenomenon? *1933 - 1945, for example. > |
||||
|
For reasons that are obscure, i've been a student of electrical issues in AC trins these past eight years i've been back in the hobby.
I think Allan's comments are fair and supported by my use of the CW80 with various equipment; however it is true that SOME MTH runs with it. Nevertheless, in my experience, most do not -- even under conventional -- and MTH does not recommend it. The irreducible issue is that (depending on your point of view) the PS2 electronics' does not filter out CW80 wave-form hash. You may see this as either an MTH or Lionel problem; take yer pick. Finally, from a variety of standpoints -- not least is internal resistance -- the Z1000 outshines the CW80 in many respects. -- gary ray This message has been edited. Last edited by: gearbox, |
||||
|
|
||||
|
$33.55 & up! Rob Proprietor, Manchester Midland & Adirondack Regional Railroad |
||||
|
|
|
Search Charles Ro online -- they offer MTH as well as ZW transformers. I don't think any of them are listed in the catalog. However - CW comes up MIA even searching online by part number. Eric |
|||
|
I really would like to point out some economic issues here. Since everyone's economy has been affected, I think there are many readers/not so often posters like me that have bought several sets that have CW80 transformers. I did invest in a new ZW, but since I still have several CW80 units, I tied them in to power accessories on my layout. Before I bought the new ZW, I used 2 CW80 units to power 2 loops with no problems at all. I ran Lionel units since that was all I could afford for quite some time. Several years later I have one MTH that I operate in conventional mode with the ZW and one Williams in convetional mode. The only reason that I bought the ZW was to avoid the cost of buying several powermasters to use the TMCC.
I know that I have been having too much fun with my Lionel trains when I see real life railroad tracks and wonder why the middle rail is missing. |
||||
|
Thanks Rob. However, just to be clear, I should have specified the Revised ("G") version, brand new in box, with full factory one-year warranty and whatever proofs-of-purchase that Lionel is currently asking for so that the warranty would be honored. I personally might buy one under less stringent circumstances, but I would not advise others to do so on my recommendation. I would take the same approach with any other brand as well. Also, I prefer to support my local train/hobby store rather than use Ebay. That said, I think there are some bargains to be had if one is prepared to take a bit of a chance. Be careful. though. In my experience most sellers don't know original CW from revised, or PowerMax from BW-80 -- and don't much care. Although thousands of folks have gotten good service from the original CW-80's -- that's what I have on my layout -- my advice is that the version matters. Buy the right one and expect that it will work! > |
||||
|
|
|
^ I wish we had a local train store! The closest shop that I know of, that sells O gauge trains is TrainsAndSuch in Calgary, which might as well be in New York City, as far as me ever getting down there... *grumble*...
So it's eBay for me. |
|||
|
I agree. I run my small layout of 2 Lionel trains by TMCC with 2 CW80 old-style transformers. It's been fine for me over the past 5 years. However, I have my non-train stuff hooked to accessory transformers. Most train shows have CW80's for $45. new in the box. |
||||
|
My LHS is totally clueless. They still have older, non-revised CW-80's sitting on the shelf, listed at $99.99. Totally unaware of any newer, more reliable versions. I have two revised versions and they work great with all my locos. I also have one older version that I sorta repaired and now works a lot better. The natural order of things is disorder. |
||||
|
Eric, In its online "2009/Spring 2010 Price Guide" Charles Ro Supply Company shows a "Lionel L14198 TMCC 80 Watt Transformer/Controller on page 9." I believe this is the CW-80 that we have been discussing. It's certainly the basic number that Lionel uses for all of it's CW-80 versions: 6-14198. I trust it's the revised one. They also list the current line of MTH transformers on p.19. What they have in stock and/or can deliver is not known to me. In any event, making inferences about the quality of an item based on its presence in or absence from a given catalog is very questionable reasoning indeed. Do you have any personal experience with the Revised CW-80's that you would care to "share" with us, or are you simply another member of this forum's "pile-on" crowd? (Note the lack of a "smiley-face" here. I've put in an enormous amount of time and effort doing research for this forum, and am rapidly losing patience with folks who bash simply for the sake of bashing....) I hope I misjudge you. Try the link below for confirmation: http://www.charlesro.com/pdf/ogauge.pdf > This message has been edited. Last edited by: wolverine49, |
||||
|
Gary, whereas others may have done so, I personally have never recommended the CW-80, either version, for use with MTH equipment, even though it will run some of it. The MTH does indeed outshine the CW-80 in some respects. The opposite is also true -- which is scarcely remarkable given that they offer different features. I have never poor-mouthed any MTH product. Indeed, they are some of my favorites. As I write this, I have been watching one of my early-version CW-80's smoothly pushing an MTH RailKing GG-1 #4824 (non-ProtoSound) around the track with a reasonable consist. It looks pretty darn good, if I do say so myself. The horn works. The lights work. What more would you expect it to do on a basic conventional layout? Would an MTH Z-1000 do just as well? Of course it would. It wouldn't have all of the same features, so you get a choice. Precisely what kind of modification to the CW-80's would satisfy your "internal resistance" issue? Would I notice any difference with my trains on my layout? So what is it exactly about the CW-80's "internal resistance" that should be causing me concern? Gosh, it all seems so nice as it is. Wonderful! It fills me with wonder -- even after some 65 years if watching toy trains go 'round and 'round! And my little CW-80's are at the center of it all. Childhood's happiest moments, redux. Perhaps I'll run some more tonight.... > |
||||
|
Demo,
Do you plan only running modern Lionel, or PW? My limited experience is that the chopped sine wave and low DC signal of the CW-80 does not work well with PW whistles. If you plan on running an PW you may want to consider a 1033. Not sure about the modern ZW and PW whistles. Don |
||||
|
Don, Excellent point. Many of us know that the general "rule" is to use modern transformers with modern whistles and horns, and postwar transformers with postwar whistles. But this is a gross over-simplification. The trick seems to be to get a "boost" where you need one, and not where you don't, and a bell button where one can be of use. But this thread is about exhausted, and the issue is so complex that it deserves its own thread. Why not start a new thread entirely, where the pros and cons of several transformers, old and new, as well as activation buttons such as the 167 and the 5906, can be thoroughly discussed, with emphasis on the technical facts and not on another orange vs. purple bash? I'd like to see it, strictly as an observer, if possible. If folks want to see it, it might help if they would let Don know or start it yourself. > |
||||
|
|
|
I guess the Locomotives I have bought would all be classed as 'Modern'. All Lionel.
I have these: 1) LIONEL 31736/28238 CANADIAN PACIFIC DASH 9 DIESEL 2) Lionel Lionel 6-8031 & 6-8258 Canadian National GP7 P & D... 2 each of those. They are from 1973 or thereabouts. 3) Polar Express Berkshire 1225 4) LIONEL HALLOWEEN TRANSYLVANIA 4-4-2 LOCOMOTIVE W/TENDER, which I think is basically the same as the PE Berkshire... Now that I have these, I think I am done buying any locos for a while. These should keep me in hot water, with the wife, for some time! |
|||
|
|
|
Demo - Good luck in whatever choice you make.
I just bought a ZW for my son. I have several other smaller transformers, including a CW (came with a set). While I was searching, even though I don't own any MTH and have not had a problem, I could not justify spending over a $100 for that transformer. So I bit the big one and bought a ZW. Maybe some call it questionable reasoning, but when I searched the part number 14198 on Charles Ro online and it came up empty, I took that as another sign to "stay clear." In my experience, large suppliers stop carrying items with issues before local suppliers. My conclusion was the $400+ for a ZW was a painful but smarter buy than CWs. I believe that was the opinions this thread was started to flesh out. Eric |
|||
|
 | View $GS_USERNAME's Public Profile |
| Add $GS_USERNAME to my Ignore List |
| View Recent Posts by $GS_USERNAME |
| Notify me of New Posts by $GS_USERNAME |
