Several weeks ago Jim Rawlings had an ad on the Buy/Sell Board for an MTH Premier Bipolar electric engine, specifically MTH #20-5606-1 Milwaukee Road with PS2 from the 2007 Volume 2 catalog.



The engine was advertised as brand new, never out of the box since it left MTH.

I've always wanted one of the engines, however, they are rated for O72 and my largest curves are O54. Since the price on the engine was very heavily discounted and Jim is a guy I know with a solid reputation on the Buy/Sell Board, I became sorely tempted to make the purchase. However, I didn't want to end up with a shelf queen if the engine couldn't handle my O54 main lines.

Therefore, as some of you may recall, I started a thread here on the 3-Rail Forum asking those who owned the engine for their experiences running the engine on O54 curves and turnouts. Several forum members responded, however, the responses were mixed, with some relating that the engine would, indeed, negotiate Gargraves and Ross O54 curves and turnouts, and some saying it wouldn't.

The tie-breaker came when Marty Fitzhenry, a good friend, ran his Bipolar through an O54 reversing loop consisting of Lionel O Gauge track with an O54 Ross switch. The engine tracked perfectly at speed and I took the plunge.

When the engine arrived from Jim, it was exactly as described. It was obvious that it had never been out of the box except for testing at MTH. This was confirmed by the few minutes on the engine's chronometer and less than 1 scale mile on its odometer.

It was now time to confirm whether or not the engine could navigate my mainline's O54 curves. I set the engine on the track and ran the speed up to 10 SMPH. All my concerns vanished as the engine proceeded to easily negotiate the O54 curves and turnouts. I was feeling great - right up until the engine just stopped dead and powered down. This occurred while traversing the straight sections of a series of 5 back-to-back Ross turnouts.

As it turned out, the Bipolar's 2 pickup rollers are set only 6 inches or so apart and tended to both land on the turnout's dead spots at the same time. Marty never experienced this issue since he runs all of his electric engines from catenary.

Fortunately, the solution was simply to remove both pickup rollers and rotate them 180 degrees so that they pointed away form each other rather than towards each other. Once I did this, the Bipolar was able to crawl through the turnouts at 2 SMPH and also to traverse the entire mainline at any speed that I chose.

In summary, I learned the following:
• When Jim Rawlings sells an engine, it comes exactly as advertised.
• This particular model of the Bipolar, from MTH's 2007 catalog, will absolutely negotiate Ross and Gargraves O54 curves and turnouts.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Barry Broskowitz,

As a Milwaukee Road addict this is still on my "to acquire" list. I do have the passenger cars for the Columbian curetsoy of Jim's "Train/Crack" shop in Homer, PA

Eagle

It is great to hear about purchases that live up to the expectations!
Enjoy Barry!

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In summary, I learned the following:
• When Jim Rawlings sells an engine, it comes exactly as advertised.
• This particular model of the Bipolar, from MTH's 2007 catalog, will absolutely negotiate Ross and Gargraves O54 curves and turnouts.

If I'm not mistaken, your Bipolar E-2 should have grey trucks, not black.
E-3 had the black trucks and MTH painted them gray on the earlier model.
MTH got it backwards.
Joe

Barry that's great to hear as I have always wanted one but O-54 is my largest diameter too. I wonder why MTH lists this item as requiring O-72 when that's not the case? This is not the first time I've encountered minimum diameter discrepancies on MTH items. Most recently I've been looking at the MTH Chapelon 2-3-1. The catalog says min. O-54, the website says min. O-42, the two reviews I've read (CTT and OGR) tested this engine and both agreed that it runs fine on O-42. An email from MTH said O-54?! Why can't MTH definitively figure out what min. diameter their equipment runs on? This is both frustrating and confusing. I would think they would sell more trains if their products had the accurate min. diameters listed. The Bipolar for instance would be in my stable by now if I knew it ran on O-54. I hope MTH reads this and gets on the ball in regards to this issue. They are too good of a company to make silly mistakes like this.



John.

P.S. Thanks again Barry, now I need to start searching for one.

Joe,

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If I'm not mistaken, your Bipolar E-2 should have grey trucks, not black. E-3 had the black trucks and MTH painted them gray on the earlier model.

The trucks on mine are black and the cab # is E-2. Didn't the earlier release by MTH have the gray trucks?

Regardless, I think the color scheme on my engine, with the black trucks, is outstanding.

John,

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Thanks again Barry, now I need to start searching for one.

You're welcome! Good luck in the hunt!

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I wonder why MTH lists this item as requiring O-72 when that's not the case?

FAR better for them to list a too-large minimum diameter than it would be for them to list a too-small minimum diameter. Just imagine the howling there would be then!

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The trucks on mine are black and the cab # is E-2. Didn't the earlier release by MTH have the gray trucks?

Regardless, I think the color scheme on my engine, with the black trucks, is outstanding.

Barry, I have E-3, the earlier MTH edition and yes it does have grey trucks.
Both early models of E-2 & E-3 with the silver band are beautifully painted. Outstanding and a great runner.
They were painted that way only a few short years before being rebuilt in the early 50's.
Unfortunatly from everything I've read and seen MTH reversed the truck colors.
Prototypically, E-2 should have grey trucks, E-3 black..
Joe

Have fun with your new toy Barry!

GREAT reading - GREAT railroading - GREAT people.

Now do you think I can do the same with an NYC P-2 BOXCAB listed as O-72 curves?



Glenn

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Now do you think I can do the same with an NYC P-2 BOXCAB listed as O-72 curves?

I've heard that the P-2 definitely requires O72, however...?

What an extraordinary loco. I never cease to be amazed at the hugely diverse range of unusual locos America produced.

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Originally posted by Allan Miller:

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I wonder why MTH lists this item as requiring O-72 when that's not the case?

FAR better for them to list a too-large minimum diameter than it would be for them to list a too-small minimum diameter. Just imagine the howling there would be then!

Even better would have been to list the ACTUAL diameter.

See Barry....I told you!!!

Alan

Barry,
If your engine matches the catalog pic you used in your post, I'd say they got the MILW maroon color just about right. All too often it ends up as tuscan or boxcar red, not necessarily with MTH's stuff but manufacturers in general.

I have an MTH Amtrak that has the problem over MTH realtrax switches.

Wish I could reverse the pickups or change them to a different length...but it is not to be.

You were lucky. (And smart!)

Greg

Jerry,

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If your engine matches the catalog pic you used in your post, I'd say they got the MILW maroon color just about right. All too often it ends up as tuscan or boxcar red, not necessarily with MTH's stuff but manufacturers in general.

The color in the picture depends, to some extent, upon the colors of your particular monitor. Regardless, it's just about identicle to my eye.

Greg,

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I have an MTH Amtrak that has the problem over MTH realtrax switches.

Many of MTH's newer offerings now come with dual pickup rollers on each power truck. Are you certain that some pickup roller swap isn't possible? It's worth a call to MTH tech support to be sure.

FYI- Just got your DCS PDF manual and printed and bound it...great resource, thanks!

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Marty never experienced this issue since he runs all of his electric engines from catenary.

Marty, I'm getting ready to set up my MTH Bipolar for overhead. How did you run the wires to the pantographs? All my other MTH electrics have a switch to change from track power to overhead. Thanks Don

Frank,

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Just got your DCS PDF manual and printed and bound it...great resource, thanks!

Thanks for buying The DCS O Gauge Companion!

Does the Bipolar run better on Lithium batteries

Thanks for the information Barry, it was a very good report on a positive purchase. Many years of good luck with your new Bipolar.

One question though, is there some reason why MTH produced the engine with the rollers in rather then out as you changed them to? Your fix sounds great, but why did MTH's people miss this obvious improvement to the engines operation?

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Posted August 22, 2009 11:35 PM Hide Post
Does the Bipolar run better on Lithium batteries Roll Eyes

That was funny!

Barry, it's a great engine. When they first came out, I bought 3! When the maroon band one arrived I bought it but didn'y like the way MTH put 'The Milwaukee Road' on it so I sold it right away. I run a string of Lionel heavyweights behind mine. MTH did a great job on them. My plan was to buy 6 Bi-Polars so I would have 1 more than the Milwaukee had but I didn't get there.
I also have a Custom Brass O scale 2 rail Bi Polar. It will make it around a 48" diameter curve.
Now that MTH made the Bi-Polar, Little Joe and EF Box Cabs they need to make the steeple cab switcher. I have the Lionel Hiawatha set, a K-line Chippewa pacific and K-lines F units so a #261 northern (rail king sized) needs to be the next steamer.
Tumbleweed 381

Mario,

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One question though, is there some reason why MTH produced the engine with the rollers in rather then out as you changed them to? Your fix sounds great, but why did MTH's people miss this obvious improvement to the engines operation?

I haven't a clue! Double rollers on each truck would have fit as well, and would have been even better.

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Originally posted by Barry Broskowitz:
Greg,

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I have an MTH Amtrak that has the problem over MTH realtrax switches.

Many of MTH's newer offerings now come with dual pickup rollers on each power truck. Are you certain that some pickup roller swap isn't possible? It's worth a call to MTH tech support to be sure.

To any one interested and Barry.

The Amtrak has 2 long (1") rollers facing in. Bad spacing for the Realtrax switches. The rollers can not be turned to face out, they are in a "box." I tried shorter rollers but that did not help. (I think I tried one short and one long....but memory escapes me at the moment.)

A double roller might work, but due to the "box" I see no way to get one to fit if I did have access to one. One end of it would have to face forward, and the box edge would preclude this. Wish I had one, I would see if it fit.

Enjoy your engine, thanks for the reply. Greg

Barry could the rollers on all MTH engines be turned around? I have a couple of engines that stall on certain parts of the track, I bet playing around with placement would solve those problems.

Stevin,

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could the rollers on all MTH engines be turned around? I have a couple of engines that stall on certain parts of the track, I bet playing around with placement would solve those problems.

Some can and some cannot. You could experiment a bit with problem engines, however be acutely aware of the possibility of the roller arm shorting against the truck block.

In some cases, if the shorting is intermittent, you could try inserting some thin insulating material where the arm might touch the truck block.

Actually, I asked an MTH guy at a train show once about the curve question. Some MTH items can go through a smaller plain curve, but add switches and reverse curves, and the numbers goes up. They list the curve the engine would go through in all situations. Conservative, yes, but I think smart. Much more so when you get artic steam and electric locomotives!

I second the prior poster's irritation on the issue of MTH and its minimum curve requirements. I have 0-48 curves.

I was practically dancing in the aisles when MTH came out with the Russian Decapod - until I read about the minimum 0-72 requirement. In reality, it was nothing of the sort; I learned they'll work on 0-36 and I have even heard 0-31. By this time I had reserved the ACL 0-6-0, and budgetary issues did not allow purchase of the Decapod I really wanted.

Same deal with the P5-A modified. One MTH model says, 0-42. The others say 0-72. All the models say, equipped with scale flanges in order to operate on smaller curves, or words to that effect. Jim's Train Shop said, 0-72. I threw up my hands in frustration and didn't get one.


I am fully aware that MTH needs to err on the side of caution on these things, but good God - don't they have test tracks?

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am fully aware that MTH needs to err on the side of caution on these things, but good God - don't they have test tracks?

I have a few engines designed for O-72 that could negotiate a O-31 curve but won't clear the O-31 Lionel switch machine and others that can slip around a tighter curve going forward but not moving backwards...
Joe

Way to go Barry. Its very satisfying to finally find something you looked so long for. Now if I could only find a K-line TV Camera Car at a reasonable price.

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They list the curve the engine would go through in all situations. Conservative, yes, but I think smart.

I agree. When you figure in reverse curves, various makes and combinations of track and switches, and other considerations, including how well or poorly some people construct their trackwork, they are probably well advised to err on the side of being conservative.

I believe in their catalogs they specify "Operates on ____ curves." Perhaps they should word it "Recommended for ____ curves" or some such. Can't go wrong with that word "recommended."

On one of the OGR tours of MTH, the engineer in charge of QA stated that they utilize the most complicated turnout combination in their simulation program to identify the smallest curve the engine will take. Most of my MTH engines go one curve size smaller than they advertise. Others will not go any lower. Ron of Engine House Hobbies always tests the engine before I pick it up if I have any curve issue for the loop the engine is designated to run on.

TWO members have commented about tracking through REVERSE CURVES.

REVERSE CURVES are a NO NO!



John Armstrong, THE Guru of track planning, warns about the 'coefficent of lurch' caused by reverse curves.

Solution: use a straight track at least as long as your longest car between the curves in a reverse curve situation.

If you claim O-42 curves as your minimum and have a reverse curve, then your minimum, according to the laws of physics, is MUCH less - I would suggest about one size less, or O-31.

This applies to appearance as well as running.

Even half-sections making up a reverse curve are not much better.

Would you want to be a passenger in one of your 70' cars going through even an O-72 reverse curve at speed?



Enjoy

Glenn

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TWO members have commented about tracking through REVERSE CURVES.

REVERSE CURVES are a NO NO!

No question about it, and they should certainly be avoided where possible. But there sure are a whole lot of O gaugers who have reverse curves on their layouts and many simply don't have the space to spare, even though the "rule" about inserting straight sections between the opposing curves is a darn good one.

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No question about it, and they should certainly be avoided where possible. But there sure are a whole lot of O gaugers who have reverse curves on their layouts and many simply don't have the space to spare, even though the "rule" about inserting straight sections between the opposing curves is a darn good one.

Well said...and let's not forget that we generally operate reasonably heavy equipment with pizza cutter wheel flanges; reliable operation is possible even if we have to fudge on the straight track rule....

Jeff C

Barry....

Thanks very much for your kind words. My greatest pleasure is selling at unbeatable prices and making sure the buyer is well pleased. On a personal note, I'm very glad you are up and doing so much better.

Jim