So I like many other here have gone strictly 3RS in the past few years. Is this representative of the O Scale hobby? I would love to see industry stats of purchases. Any comments or other indicators we should be looking at?

I doubt it because 3RS has the same one thing against it as 2 rail does. It requires more space. I don't think the majority of O gaugers have the room for O72 minimum curves.

When you talk about the REAL majority of 3Rail, you need to think how many people only get their trains out at Christmas. Whatever is done toward the SCALE movement has to reflect well towards that crowd. More trains are sold the month before Christmas than the rest of the year.

An interesting question, actually. It is one of those things that 'it depends how you measure it'.

One things is for sure: by all accounts, 3R has gone from primarily a collectors market to an operators market in the past 15 years. I'm gonna guess that this trend has accelerated and abetted the 3RS trend. Almost by definition, collectors are less interested in the scale environment.

Certainly there are 10:1 or more holiday operators vs. year-round hobbyists. But, how much do they spend? Here's the thing: the Xmas tree circle train is a long-lived consumer durable. Many of us inherit the dang things.

Now, 3R 'toy' operators (and i'm one) are sorta 'easy to please'. Semi-scale steam? no problem. 5 foot scale truck clearances? big deal. What, exactly, is a pilot? I'll take that G scale operating signal man please. For all of that, i've only averaged $35/month over seven years for my two loop DCS controlled layout with seven PS2 engines. We're cheap, because we have low standards. Or vice versa.

Now, yer 3RS operates on a different wave length. I'm going to guess that the average monthly cash outlay for an active 3RS modeler is several times mine. Crikey! If the discussion of steam engines is any indication, it may be ten times my outlay.

I'm not arguing that 3RS is a majority of the market in dollar terms, but it is clearly growing, and that is a good thing for all of us.

Particularly those of us that like to be free-riders. Look at the detail on RailKing Imperial engines.

-- gary ray

Gearbox, Thank you for understanding the 3RS position and what we as 3RS modelers are trying to achieve. I also want to thank Pete K., Jerry, Hot Water and others who have contributed so much to the 3RS forum/movement. We still have a long way to go but it is defiantly an exciting time to be in O scale!

Maybe the problem is not the models, but a place to RUN them. At least Houston has the Houston Timplate Oper. Soc. has a layout based on at LEAST O-72 curves. If you are in the area, you can come bring your long scale stuff and run it!

But with housing situation, how many people have the ROOM to run scale stuff, other than a switching layout or a "carpet central rr" layout.

I could not run scale stuff over 40' until the HTOS' layout was built in Memorial City Mall.

In Texas, I know Houston and Austin have places 3SR items can run. Any others? Should there be a place of like places in the OGR web site?

Maybe the O-27 engine question is bring up a point. Maybe the entry sets that are produced are of the type that the car truck and couples could easily be converted to 3RS when the owner is comfortable with it. And a lot of scale stuff could run of FastTrack, at O-36? Or scale sets with Kadees, et al, as entry level.

Also, the COST of the stuff. I don't mind the Marklin type detailing, and am willing to pay for it in cars. But at my income level, I can't plunk down $500.00+ for a super detailed engine with a sound system. Love how they look and sound. But my bank account can't take a hit like that.

Maybe the owner of the HO scale V&O had an excelent philosophy. This free lanced railroad ran like the real thing. Things were detailed to the concept of "good enough". That is, it had detain which elevated it from a kit or box, but ran well enough not to mess uo operations.

The V&O also was highly detailed in scenery and trackside construction. Areas that have been hinted on in 3RS. I can see big bang for the buck here.

And we should remember something. What iwas considered "cutting edge" in HO in the 1970's looks crude today. What will we have in 2040?

I don't think the scale has quite tipped to third rail scale yet, but I do believe it is close. The 3 rail portion of model railroading has been swiftly moving in a scale direction for about 15 years. While there are several scale locomotives that came before it, I look at the MTH scale Challenger as the scale three rail shot heard round the world. Unlike the prewar Lionel scale Hudson, there have been dozens of scale steam locomotives to come after the MTH Challenger. There are thousands of O gaugers across the world who have scale Big Boys, Challengers, Alleganys, Cab forwards, Yellowstones, Union Pacific types, GG-1s, Bipolars, box cabs, Little Joes, W-1s and many more locomotives and cars that require O-72 as a minimum. And there are now many 3 rail model railroads on which to run this 3 rail O scale equipment. As Gearbox noted, these folks may be relatively small in number but they spend a considerable portion of the dollars in the O gauge market.

If you have a railroad built to accommodate scale steam and electric locomotives and scale passenger and freight cars it makes sense to want diesels with the highest scale fidelity since an O-72 requirement is something you are already working with. Why not have an SD70ACe or GE ES44 with a fixed pilot?

I will consider 3RS as having achieved critical mass when we see factory offerings with fixed pilots, tinplate wheels and operating scale couplers. Given the announced MTH SD70ACe in HO includes operating couplers, I expect to see them in 3 rail in the not too distant future.

Put me down for a 20-2770-4 please.

quote:

The 3RS movement is dedicated to promoting the very best possible scale model railroading within the limits of the 3-rail world.

As Rich said. I do enjoy reading on this side of OGR; however, I seldom post. I think I am just 3 rail with the scale portion being my rolling stock and engines (Legacy and MTH Premier). On my 4 level 7 by 17 foot layout, with two 072 loops (third on my 3rd level -elevated for the Acela still being worked on), I have three O54 loops, two O42, one O31 loop and one O27 loop. My trolley is running on one end with O21 superstreets to fit on the 2 foot by 4 foot 4th level on one end of its run. Hopefully in our new house in 5 years, I will have the space (and talent gained from working on this layout) to go to 3RS. I doubt however if I will have the guts to weather my four articulated engines or anything else costing more than $400. I might keep my TMCC engines around just in case I get the inspiration to weather an engine. Edit: While my engines are scale and my 1950-1962 layout engines can only run on one 031 loop, I have incorporated my operating horse coral, freight station, milk car, and the culvert loader/unloader on the base level of the 6 by 7 "L" for my grandchildren to operate: definately not scale but nostalgic.

quote:

While my engines are scale and my 1950-1962 layout engines can only run on one 031 loop, I have incorporated my operating horse coral, freight station, milk car, and the culvert loader/unloader on the base level of the 6 by 7 "L" for my grandchildren to operate: definately not scale but nostalgic.

Winrose46,

I agree that there is this dichotomy of moving in a 3RS direction but wanting to keep the nostalgia of the older less scale trains. I'm just in the process of building my new layout and you have given me an excellent idea of creating this (nostalgic) world on a separate level especially for the grandkids (and me too )

quote:

Originally posted by 3rdrailMike:
So I like many other here have gone strictly 3RS in the past few years. Is this representative of the O Scale hobby? I would love to see industry stats of purchases. Any comments or other indicators we should be looking at?

One indicator might be catalog space devoted to scale vs traditional. Lionel and MTH might be 50-50. K-line by Lionel, 100% non scale. Atlas including Trainman maybe 80-20 in favor of scale. etc. Fill in the rest.
Hard to gauge number of items sold in each category or dollar amounts without input from the manufacturers.

Pete

Also, are we restricting 3RS to US/Canada railroads from the Depression until now?


There are scale stuff in other areas, like:

1. Civil War/transcon era.
2. Traction/Mass Transit
3. Non-North American Railroading.
4. Narrow and broad gauge.

I would not run the Lionel Potter or Shakespear train on a NA 3RS layout. BUT, on a moderen 3RS layout set in the present UK, those sets would be scale, and "correct". (Maybe there is a reason for MTH's move into Europe type engines.)

And how about those who just build and display engines on the mantle and or small, detailed scenes? Are they not members of this group? Ops who run their trains like the real railroads, even if their stuff is not up to "exact" 3RS "standards"?

Excuse me for interjecting a toy-operator's perspective again, but the thought occurs . . .

Yah know, whatta recruitment mechanism O3RS has: Jeez-Louise, i almost talked myself into getting a gorgeous Alleghany at a Greenberg show the other week. Good gracious it was a honey: a Kline refugee, but TMCC and detailed like nothing on my layout now.

My point is O3RS modelers come from (often) O guys that kinda creep into it as they look for new challenges in the hobby.

But i've resisted.

For now.

I did take his card . . . it's just up the road in Leesburg . . .

-- gary ray

I'd like to chime in to see how many of you go for 3RS for the same reasons I am. I will make the assumption, for the purpose of this post, that all of you who love scale fidelity to detail would sack the middle rail if you could justify it.

Reason #1: I love the idea of the ease of wiring for 3RS as opposed to the "terror" of 2 rail reversing loops, turnouts that need additional wiring, complexities of yards, etc. I am contemplating a 3RS layout with a two rail loop that "runs through town."

Reason #2: I still love toy trains and, although I don't run them much, I love the idea of putting my childhood trains on the tracks and letting them run.

Reason #3: I believe that 2RS really needs curves much wider than O-72 to look very realistic. My Big Boy doesn't even look very good on O-99. Who has unlimited room?

Reason#4: I do not want to go after Kadee couplers with that silly little screw driver gizmo that I see at shows. Ugh !!

eliot

gearbox,

Be careful! K-Line did NOT make an O scale C&O Allegheny! It was actuall more S scale that would run on O gauge 3-rail track, with VERY tight curves. It was definately NOT 3RS, nor 1:48 scale!

Hot water --

Ha! I am such a sucker. Well, it doesn't matter: i talked myself out of it.

Now that you mention it though, i am certain you are correct. The detail was amazing -- that's what i was impressed with -- but it just wasn't massive enough.

Anyway, i'm happy with my RailKings fer now (semi-scale and all).

-- gary ray

Scherbear57 solicited feedback.

quote:

I'd like to chime in to see how many of you go for 3RS for the same reasons I am. I will make the assumption, for the purpose of this post, that all of you who love scale fidelity to detail would sack the middle rail if you could justify it.

Reason #1: I love the idea of the ease of wiring for 3RS as opposed to the "terror" of 2 rail reversing loops, turnouts that need additional wiring, complexities of yards, etc. I am contemplating a 3RS layout with a two rail loop that "runs through town."

I've been modeling HO for as long as I can remember, and playing with command control since 1987 (Dynatrol), and DCC since 1996. Two rail DCC is one of the simplest layouts to wire of anything I have worked with. Dynatrol was a bit fussier on voltage drops, and the overcurrent protection wasn't quite as good, which is why it got replaced.

Reversing loops require a simple auto reverse board. Don't want to spend the cash on that? Use a toggle switch. Forget to throw the switch. No problem. The locomotive hits the short, and the overcurrent protection on the DCC power supply shuts things down, no damage to any equipment. All that is required is for the user to clear the short. DCC is literally two wires. No ground plane wiring required. No lightbulbs or resistors to balance out impedence. It is relatively tolerant of dirty track. DCC has it's own learning curve, but it is nowhere as steep as what I've went thru with TMCC and DCS. Remember, I play with large layouts, in both scales.

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Reason #2: I still love toy trains and, although I don't run them much, I love the idea of putting my childhood trains on the tracks and letting them run.

Variety is the spice of life. I sold my Lionel in 1974. Quite pleased that I did, don't miss it one bit. Yes, I miss my childhood experiences, but my experiences have evolved. When I was a kid, in my head, my 2242 Lionel F3 was actually a Burlington E8, and the shorty passenger cars it pulled never used the observation, because one of the vista domes was actually a cab car representing a Burlington gallery car. Each lap around the loop represented 2 minutes on the Burlington commuter schedule. The Plasticville station represented every station on the three track Q running west of Chicago, including Union Station.

Today, the vision I see on my railroads, in either HO or three rail O is of Great Northern and/or Northern Pacific transition era equipment. On the HO railroad, the trains run point to point, we run an operating session, and it doesn't take much of a stretch of imagination for my mind to end up on the Spokane Southern Railroad in 1952 in northwest Idaho or eastern Washington, particularily on the completed sections.

In O, the three track main, on very big loops detracts from the experience, but still fun none the less. Add 11 like minded indiduals into the fray three times per year for at least three days each time, and it is one of the most pleasurable experiences I have ever encountered.

quote:

eason #3: I believe that 2RS really needs curves much wider than O-72 to look very realistic. My Big Boy doesn't even look very good on O-99. Who has unlimited room?

Didn't have to do much to please my eye. Weather the motive power and equipment, paint the track, add a few hours of simple scenicing, and I can live with O-79. I've posted pics of my R-2 in another thread, if you want to see other equipment on these curves, go to This Link, and there are several pictures of equipment, including articulateds, and 10 coupled steam engines on a series of O-79, O-89, and O-99 curves.

quote:

Reason#4: I do not want to go after Kadee couplers with that silly little screw driver gizmo that I see at shows. Ugh !!

One man's bane is another man's pleasure. I'm looking forward to getting my entire o scale three rail fleet converted to Kadees, and using the same bamboo skewers to uncouple Kadees as I use in HO. No more having to slam couplers closed by hand, no more three tries to get the electro-coupler to release at just the right time when uncoupling from a 25 car train. If we get to the point that our group goes the free-mo route, all the switching that will result will require the use of skewers, car cards, train orders, timetables, dispatchers, etc. Now THAT is fun.

Final editorial comment. If people don't have enough room, start or join a modular group. Show setups will frequently allow for curvature that makes articulateds look good if the people involved are willing to put forth the effort to build the modules. Here is my Northern Pacific Z-6 on an O-136 curve. Couldn't do this at home in O,



but I can at home in HO.



Regards,
Jerry Zeman

I got a little tipsy several years ago and sold off almost all of my semi scale stuff except 2 railking prr steamers. I still have to be careful about buying because the Premier and Lionel heavy weight passenger coaches apparently are short at 18 inches from what I have read. I still see people trying to sell semi scale stuff at train shows around here but for semi scale it looks like only the real old collectable stuff sells unless a VERY reasonable price is posted. Because of the economy and a limited O market in this area I suspect this will continue for a long time.