Honest question. In my HO days, if I needed to pull more cars, I added another locomotive. I rarely if ever used unpowered locomotives.

Outside of modern passenger trains where a part of the rear unit HP provides head end power, is there really a need for non-powered locomotives in OS3R? I find myself running all powered locomotives in 3R conventional and if know I want to run the trailing unit in reverse, I'll simply reverse the DC motor leads.

I'm curious on your thoughts on this subject. Do you prefer non-powered locomotives based on the cost, or prefer adding motors to be able to pull more locomotives? What about command issues? Does the use of grade changes affect your decision? Do you use helper districts for larger grades?

Id never buy one Jon. Why waist the space and not have the pulling power?

I have 4 GP9s. 2 powered and 2 dummies. The 2 powered and 1 dummy have already been converted. The 1 dummy is a 2 rail that I added Electro couplers, sound and lights. The second dummy will just get the fixed pilot and couplers. But planning another modification for it. It gives me a bunch of options for different consists. Run all 4 together or combinations of the 4. Run the dummy with TMCC added as a helper for a steam engine. As a B unit between my AA F3s. Drag one of the dummies as a pusher. Yep they can be handy. In HO I never bought dummies. The ones that stopped working became dummies.

In this video the 2 powered units are running by the same ID #. The trailing 2-rail dummy stopped working except the lights were stuck on. They will all get reprogramed soon. Except for the last 3 freight cars all the rest are 2-rail with scale wheels.

http://vimeo.com/1799232

B&O
Joe

Joe,

Thanks for your perspective. I can see how having a non-powered unit to house electronics and other features would be useful.

As an aside, have you or anyone else used a lead engine to power the motors of a second engine? I am thinking along the lines of how a slug unit works where the prime mover off the lead unit powers the slug's traction motors.

The reason I bring this up is that you could potentially use one powered unit's TMCC / DCS to power multiple motors throughout mutliple units by wiring them together. I understand that the amperage of most reversing boards is not able to handle much more than two motors, but one could you run a very protoypical consist of diesels where the lead unit is providing the command control for any number of conventional / non powered units trailing. Perhaps a non-powered unit could house some very powerful command equipment and you could slave all the powered units to it?

Just random thought for a late Tuesday.

For my 2 rail trains I would never buy dummies. In 2 rail there are no traction tires or magne-traction and the narrow wheels do not provide much traction on their own. Thus, to haul long trains I actually need more locomotives due to traction limitations. When I was into 3 rail I did use some dummies. The main reason was that a typical 3 rail engine can use its cookie cutter wheels with traction tires to drag the whole train, dummies included, around the layout. In the end, I think it is really a matter of physics. I also should mention that I think the improved ease of MUing locos provided by command control has made having all powered units more attractive to both 2 and 3 rail.

quote:

Originally posted by Glenn Fresch:
For my 2 rail trains I would never buy dummies. In 2 rail there are no traction tires or magne-traction and the narrow wheels do not provide much traction on their own. Thus, to haul long trains I actually need more locomotives due to traction limitations. When I was into 3 rail I did use some dummies. The main reason was that a typical 3 rail engine can use its cookie cutter wheels with traction tires to drag the whole train, dummies included, around the layout. In the end, I think it is really a matter of physics. I also should mention that I think the improved ease of MUing locos provided by command control has made having all powered units more attractive to both 2 and 3 rail.

One of the many reasons I won't just cross the line into 2-rail. I'm very close but would have to give up too much just for the sake of getting rid of the ugly center rail. I like options and not limitations. With the rather simple modification to the switches I run 2 and 3 rail equipment on the same tracks with the same power. All TMCC with all the bells and whistles. When I'm done most of my rolling stock will have scale wheels and couplers. Most of my engines will have Electro couplers and fixed pilots on diesels. Some will get scale wheels also. If they don't pull enough I'll cut grooves in them for traction tires. I buy mostly scale 2-rail rolling stock now. If I find a 2-rail engine worth the cost and work to convert it to TMCC I'll buy that. I can choose the best from both worlds and run it all together.
As for dummies. I can put together engine consists like I see in my books. Engines that just won't run together easily. Mixing steam and diesel. Lionel and Atlas or what ever. Options, versatility, operability and variety.

Where I'm at the only thing 2-rail offers is ........2 rails. And they are out of gauge too..

This is the 3 Rail Scale forum, right?

B&O
Joe

quote:

As an aside, have you or anyone else used a lead engine to power the motors of a second engine? I am thinking along the lines of how a slug unit works where the prime mover off the lead unit powers the slug's traction motors.

K-line has this set up for some of their E8 aa's and F units... sharing the same reverse to power up as much as 6 motors!

For me the Dummy unit also incorporates a detailed cab interior that I could NOT have in a powered unit with any current type of O gauge drive. BEsides, O scalers too have dummy units running in their consists... believe it or not. I know of the NYSE has dummy f units for thier PRR Coal drag and CP rail trains... possibly the LAckawanna "Phoebe Snow" train too. They use Dummy A units and Powered B units in some cases too. Some of the Old Club members say usig a Powered b Unit distributes the powere more evenly in a train becasue the Powered B unit is pushing the Dummy A as well as Pulling the rest of the train.

I model the transistion era and I think there is a need and good reason for the use of dummy locos in both 2 and 3 rail. Besides the fact that I like locomotives if I'm trying to capture the feel and look of a real railroad most trains except for locals had 2, 3, 4 or even 5 locos on the headend. Running 4 or 5 locos is a bit much for most layouts, (although they look great) but most layouts will handle 3 locos. I guess it all depends on what you like to see on your layout.

I don't think in 2 or 3 rail you need more than one or two powered locos. I can pull 25-30 cars with any one or maybe two of my 2 rail locos without traction tires. If I want to run three or four F units or GP's which was typically the way they operated in the real world why not run a dummy as the third and/or fourth unit. If you don't need the power why pay for it.

As Phil pointed out if you use the Weaver, Red Caboose or P&D twin tower drives or any of the China drives one of the powered trucks fills the cab; so running a dummy allows you to add cab detail and also DCC, sound or other components.

Since we are trying to create an illusion of the real world on our layouts running multiply power is necessary for most mainline roads.

I'm sure I could go into more detail but IMHO opinion there are more good reasons for running dummy locos than not. I know one modeler who loves cabooses and generally runs more than one on the tail end of his trains. His justificaton is that he is moving them back to another location to balance the railroads equipment. You gotta run and model what you like!

Butch

This message has been edited. Last edited by: up148,

I think that 3RS modelers are far more likely to actually do some operations. Obviously dummies would just get in the way. Traditional 3R modelers typically run trains in loops, so it really doesn't matter if they use dummies. My first choice would still be to have multiple powered units, but I do think there is a place for Dummies. The cost of these powered units is getting pretty high. Take a look at the Lionel AC6000. Jeez. If for no other reason than cost alone I think dummies should still be made.

Case in point... One of my favorite engines is my Lionel Chessie GP30. To add a second powered unit would cost ~$500. To add a dummy costs ~$125. Big difference! Dummies are also a great way to stage static scenes like backshops, engine servicing facilities, storage tracks, etc...

I think if you are planning to run in multiples, a good thing to consider would be to link the pickup rollers together for flawless power.

quote:

Since we are trying to create an illusion of the real world on our layous running multiply power is necessary for most mainline roads.

Nicely put Butch.

The GTW had lots of GP38-2's that it ran in 3, 4, & 5 unit consists. So to make up a realistic train I need two good pullers and a couple of dummies. Fortunately for me, as a member of the Independent HiRailers, Midwest Division, finding a couple of dummies is real easy!

- RICH

One of the very few diesel sets I own is an MTH A-B-B-A Southern Pacific F3 "Black Widow" consist. The set originally was just an A-B-A with the two A units being powered and dummy B. I obtained an "undecorated" additional dummy B from MTH in order to have the full A-B-B-A consist as the SP ran them in the early 1950s. With just the two A units being powered, I can still handle well over 50 freight cars without drawing too many AMPS, and yet have an impressive four unit F3 freight consist. Thus the use of dummy B units is quite handy.

I haven't found a train yet that just three powered diesel units will not handle around our Independent Hi-Railers, Midwest Division modular layout. So "filling out the consist" with additional dummy units works very well.

The advantage of non-powered units is the aesthetics of triple or quad heading a freight without the current draw. The down side is the weight. Since we're limited to 10 amps per transformer zone at the club, running more than two powered diesels per freight can create a current draw problem when you have three trains running on the main at the same time.

Same as Rich, Butch and Hotwater. I find that two or three powered units typically is enough to handle any train, but prototypical modelling (of the Santa Fe in my case) often involves having four, five or more units in the consist, and non-powered units fill out the consist. That's especially important when two trains are sharing the line. Extra powered units eat amps needed for things like smoke and lights while being unnecessary to pull the train. (And of course some eastbounds shuttled units back east dead in consist, which you can only do with dummies...).

RM

I'd like to easily mixup engine consists without having to worry about brand, etc. If I wanted to run an AtlasO SD-35 with an MTH SD-24 and both have their TMCC/DCS, its hard to run those together. If one was a dummy, it could be done. Sadly this is a real scenario on my layout and in real life, these types of diesels ran together frequently on the Southern Railway.

I consider my railroad HiRail not 3RS because I keep the original couplers and do not worry about swinging pilots. But I only run scale engines and rolling stock and try to have realistic scenery. Easier said than done.

OK now to the question of dummies. My Williams ABA diesel sets, two F-7's and one FA set, have two power units and one unit housing the sound boards. These are the only 3 dummy units that I own. The only steam engines that I will double head are the I1s decapods. Otherwise use the steam engine appropriate for the job.

Thank you for listening

Thanks for the info. I don't have the space at home for trains much longer than 25 cars, so I don't normally MU more than two powered diesels. I can see that on a club layout longer trains are possible and 4 motors should easily cover it.

Does anyone find that they need more power on grades or does anyone use helper districts?

Johnathan
i know that Bob Bartizek uses snappers on his Pennsylvania and Western railroad. Check out hte bottom PICTURE

In the past, it was difficult to keep multiple engines in sink, particularly in 3 rail. Big power supplies were very expensive. Neither is true anymore. Power is pretty inexpensive and with Command control, engines stay in sink most of the time.

I still have one dummy in my MTH SP Black Widow F3 ABBA diesel set. I still plan on powering that dummy. The second B unit was a kit from P&D Hobby. I built it powered with China drive trucks. I have 6 Red Caboose GP9s They are in the process of being 2 railed. All are powered. All of my diesels except the 1 B unit are powered and have TMCC with sound. All of my road diesels have the standard China Drive and do not use cruse control, so they can be used in any combination that I desire at the moment.

I also do not like engines with no sound. I have never seen a silent engine pulling a train. I have never heard a compliment of diesels pulling a real train with all of the sound coming from the first unit, nor do they all sound identical. So I put a different sound unit in each diesel.

Now here's one for you all. I have a pretty heavy heavyweight passenger train. most of the cars are brass. I have some more cars reserved at Sunset 3rd Rail for it. It is to be steam powered. If I have trouble pulling it, I plan to use the older style Weaver chain drive to power a baggage car. It would have 6 powered axles with a good size Pittman motor. I guess that is the opposite of a dummy loco.

As others have said, 2 to 3 powered units will handle most trains on most layouts but often times it is desirable to have more units on a train. My only dummy units are part of E or F unit sets. However, I have considered getting an Atlas dummy GN GP35 to run as the middle unit in a consist with my MTH GN GP30 and SD45. That would give me plenty of power, three good looking Omaha Orange and Pullman Green second generation units and keep it all DCS with directional headlights and functioning couplers at each end.

I am lucky to get to operate at one model railroad with plenty of space to run very long trains with 2.2% grades and a superelevated O-240 S-curve on the hill. You can run enough train to NEED more than two powered units. Check out these videos to see what can be done with O outdoors.

The train in this video has 3 powered and 4 dummy units among the lead, mid-train and pushing units and 32 cars.

Woodshire RR Santa Fe Super Haul

This freight train has 5 units, all powered. It might have only needed 4 SD70ACes but it was nice to have the extra power from the DD40 to make the hill for sure. Note the NP passenger train has an AAABBA on the head end with all powered As and dummy Bs. The two powered units in the ABBA weren't quite enough for 16 aluminum K-line cars so a powered AA set was added in front of them.

Woodshire RR Movie #12

The diesel units in each train were run together as "lashups" with DCS. I think MTH and Lionel are giving us superior products by using actual tachometers for speed control rather than an inferential method like the back EMF that is common with DCC. DCS and Legacy units are all speed matched out of the box with all others using each respective system. I like double and triple heading and running distributed power prototypically is a great capability.

I saw a dummy in the road name I prefer (Reading) and I could not resist. So when the MTH UBoat gets here, I will have 3 powered units with the dummy (GP9) in the middle of a set of 4 engines (Uboat, GP9 (powered and unpowered) and the RS3). With 5 other powered units (WM (GP7 and SD 40-2), Heritage Diesels (2) and Lionel SD 40-2) on the same loop, it permits me to have one 4 engine train, two 2 engine trains and a single engine train on a single TIU channel.

Suppose you have 1361 at Horseshoe Curve?

4876 in WUS basement?

DIC unit being transfered?

Did a little video of my unpowered GP9. Plan to use it in helper service. It has sound, lights and Electro couplers. Can push or pull it without being programmed into a lashup. It's really adding sound that makes a difference.

http://vimeo.com/1828584

B&O
Joe

Joe,

Your reasoning makes a lot of sense. I like the idea of loading