I posted something similar in the 3R forum and got little response. I am wondering if this is the place for this information. If not, that is fine too.

Personally, I would like to see a manufacturer recognize the value of such as set, especially the coaches as they were fairly common and continue to run today in many varied places.

A review of my resources led to the following information for anyone wishing to model this train accurately. My primary source is the book Railpace Published in 1983 called, "The Seashore's Finest Train". I also reference a very rare book titled, "The Central Railroad of New Jersey's First Hundred Years" by Elaine Anderson who started working for the CNJ in 1942 and retired from Conrail in 1978. This book was published by the Center for Canal History and Technology Canal Museum. Finally, Quadrant Presse's publication of the "Motive Power of the Jersey Central" by Mike Eagleson has some good information for modeling the Comet.

This is a discussion primarily about equipment and not the history of the train.

The Locomotives:

Five nearly identical Pacific locomotives were built for the CNJ in 1928, before the train was introduced. Three were used in BC service and 831-833 were painted Packard Blue and Royal Blue with a graphite grey smoke box.

There have been several suggestions about the type of Pacific used and I previously posted some inaccurate information myself. Note that there were several names used for these locomotives. The CNJ classified them as G-3s, which suggests the heritage of their control by the Reading as that railroad classified Pacifics as G class as well. However according to the specification prepared by CNJ themselves, they are referred to as class P-47, which I believe refers to Passenger - 46,841 pounds of tractive effort. Meanwhile, Baldwin classified them as Class 12-46-1/4-D, 201. The locomotive had a dimension of 48’11-1/2” from the face of the pilot to the rear of the frame. The tender dimension added 32’6-7/8” from the rear of the locomotive frame to the rear of the coupler. The overall dimension from coupler face to coupler face was 82’1-7/8”.

Other power pulled the Comet as well. G-1 Pacifics were occasionally used in service. As has been noted Atlantic 592 was power on some occasions and is found in photos dated July 17, 1938 doing just that. It is likely that 10 wheelers also were power, but I have no photos to prove that.

The Baggage Cars:

Two baggage cars were used and were named for the comets Olbers and Barnard. These were approximately 70’ in length and utilized standard bearing six wheel trucks. The exact dimensions are listed as 70’9-3/4” over the end plates, 73’10-1/4” to the pulling faces of the couplers and 74’4-1/4” from the face of the buffers. Standard CNJ baggages of the same design were used from time to time as well in CNJ green.

The Combination Cars:

Again two cars, Halley and Eckne, were painted for BC service. These cars were 71’11” to the pulling face of the couplers and 72’2” to the ends of the buffers. Trucks for this car were AAR standard 4 wheel passenger trucks.

The Coaches:

Eight coaches were painted for BC service and include: Tuttle, Holmes, Westphal, D’Arrest, Faye, Spitaler, Winnecke and Brorsen. These cars were built by Bethlehem Ship Building in 1926 and were the last new coaches the CNJ ever purchased. Many CNJ coaches of this design exist today and can be found as far west as Santa Fe, NM in excursion service. They were of the same dimensions as the combines.

The Diner:

There was only one diner made for BC service and was named Giacobini. Originally built in 1905 as a wood café car complete with arched window lites above the rectangular windows, this car was a throwback to the 19th century and even had a truss rod support system on the bottom of the car. It was sheathed in sheet metal on the exterior to give it a more modern appearance. The interior retained the arched windows and they were frosted with star and cloud designs. The trucks were 6 wheel trucks and the over length of the car from buffer to buffer was 83’4-1/2”. This would be a very unique car to model.

The Observations:

Three observation cars were used and include DeVico, Beila and Tempel. Much has been written about these but a few interesting tidbits include the fact that the DeVico was the last open end observation car in regular service in the US. It ran well into 1976 in commuter service to Phillipsburg. During its Blue Comet years, the car did not have reserve seating or an extra fare. This car had the same dimensions and trucks as the Coaches.

Many models have come close in many cases to some of the cars on this train, but an accurate mass produced version has never been created. For those interested in custom work, it would not be hard to convert 18” steel cars to make a very believable train by replacing the trucks with 4 wheel trucks as a start. However an accurate set of cars would be much more interesting.

The diner has always been the hard one to replicate, but a 20” car could be used as a starting point and the truss rods added to the bottom to make the car complete. For the rest of the train, are there any kits or existing models that are close, or are we simply faced with scratch building? Does anyone know a source on correct 3R trucks for these cars?

While not in BC livery, here is the type of car I am looking for:

You and Me both Jonathan. I would also like to see a cab car for running push-pulls with Geeps. The cab cars looked the same as coaches but had the steps removed at the cab end and boxes added in there place to house equipment. I have modeled CNJ passenger post Blue Comet in HO, but have been collecting and saving K-Line coaches to kit bash at a later date. The K-Line 18" coaches are about the right length and have the windows spaced evenly down the side. Add the lavoratory vents on both sides at one end and I think you have a convincing model. With the nice work Weaver did with the head end cars, I was hoping they would produce the coaches for the CNJ.

I would love to see a cab car too. Being a little young when CNJ became Conrail (I was only 7), I don't remember them well in service and my memory of CNJ trains was from the yellow / blue car era. However, I've been collecting images and books over the years and I like the post war era on for the CNJ.

It always interested me that they never purchased more modern steam because the steel car fleet was designed for conversion to MU electrics, which they could never afford. I also like that these cars are at home from the Blue Comet era into the late 70's and you can put a lot of different power on the front and they are still prototypical. In HO I modeled a reasonable "Queen of the Valley" with Pacific 835, several Athearn / Bev Bel cars, a few E&B valley kits and an old Tenshodo GP-7 for the more 'modern' version.

I have a few PRR 18" K-line cars that I need to take a look at again. They've been in the box pending either disposition or simply for use on club layouts when I want to leave the more expensive stuff at home. As you mention they are of about the right length and I should look at the window spacing and details more closely.

They certainly aren't doing me any good in PRR since they never had anything in that size and were purchased before I really started getting serious about my 0 gauge purchases. Do you know anyone who make trucks for a conversion? Does Weaver produce them? So far the only convincing 4 wheel passenger truck I have seen is the Pennsy version that ran under R50's, B60's and the vast array of P series cars.

I would think that either a Weaver or a Golden Gate Depot would be able to do these cars justice and I think they would be good sellers. For my models, I like the fact that these cars would look pretty good on 0-72 curves and still be accurate!

Jonathan,

If you have seen them how accurate are the MTH Premier Blue Comet cars? These are all 70' so it seems the diner and observation won't be accurate length wise but how about window placement etc?

Thanks

Paul

Paul,

My critique of the MTH Premier set is the following:

-The vestibule door windows are out of proportion and are split in the middle in lieu of the single window with slightly lower placement on the prototype.
-I'll harp on it all day and night, but the trucks were only 6 wheel on the baggage and the diner
-The prototype had 20 windows vs. the 21 on the MTH model and the spacing is not the same (however, I will say this could be overlooked by most).
-In several MTH Cars the clerestory design has partial shrouding. CNJ's basic fleet of cars for the BC did not have this, however some CNJ cars did.

However, having said that, the MTH set is as convincing more than most on the market. Their graphics are pretty decent overall. While Williams made a similar set, they made the fatal error of putting CNJ "Miss Liberty" heralds on the BC set when the CNJ did not adopt that logo until after the BC was gone. Of course the level of detail on a Williams vs. an MTH is not even close.

Honestly, until a manufacturer has decided to model this car, we are stuck with what we have. With some modification, the MTH cars could come close. Oddly Barnard is almost on the money. At least we have a prototype that lends itself to shorter cars! I think the NYC 1800 series cars are not far off this prototype either.

Hi all,

Johnathan, thanks for the all the info on the BC cars. I received an MPC era BC set for Christmas '86 and have always had a soft spot for the Comet. I have a couple questions.

1. Do any of your reference books give a description of the interior colors? I have the most recent MTH version of the train and would someday like to detail the interiors in the correct colors.

2. MTH offered an RPO in their last set. Did CNJ have RPO's? And if so, were any of them painted in BC colors?

Thanks Jonathan!

I guess I'll keep them until something better (maybe golden gate) comes around.

Paul

Hi Dave,
A good book that I found to be good in modeling the CNJ Blue Comet is "The Seashore's Finest Train" by Joel Rosenbaum and Tom Gallo. The coach areas in combine were blue and white tile in a diamond pattern. The combines were also used as smoking cars. The coaches and observations had blue carpet. The diner had the same tile in the kitchen and vestabules with blue carpet in the dining area.

I believe the CNJ had no RPO's, what they had was Mail/Baggage cars, but none in Blue Comet paint. The cars in the comet fleet were as follows: 1 Diner #81/Giacobini, 2 Combines #300/Halley and #302/Encke, 2 Baggage, #391/Olbers, #392/Barnard, 8 Coachs #1170/Tuttle, #1171/Holmes, #1172/Westphal, #1173/D'Arrest, #1174/Faye, #1175/Spitaler, #1176/Winnecke, #1177/Brorsen, and 3 Observations #1178/De Vico, #1179/Biela, #1169/Tempel.

"The Seashore's Finest Train" is practically the bible on the Blue Comet as it is the only place you will find detailed information in one spot. That is were I would reference the interior details and colors.

As to RPO's, there were none in BC service, however CNJ ran the Mail / Baggage cars as noted above. Here is an image of one:



For those interested in the origins of Giacobini, here is a picture of what the car looked like prior to 'modernization'. Pretty neat transformation.


Before


And after ...

Here's a former BC observation later on. What's not to love?



Finally, former coach "Westphal":



I'll post some pictures of one of my 18" steel coaches and start looking at a comparison to the prototype next.

Hi guys,

Thanks very much for the info. I'll have to try and pick up a copy of "The Seashore's Finest Train."

Johnathan, I noticed in the photo you posted of the mail/baggage car it seems to read:

United States Mail
Railway Post Office

Do you know if the "RPO" term was used on mail/baggage cars regardless of whether sorting occurred in route?

Dave,

I meant to get back to you on this and a few weeks worth of research has not yielded any conclusions. Yes the car is clearly marked United State Post Office, but I have not found any info in print or on line that mentions what train this car was even on.

A reasonable guess would be that it would have served on the Pennsylvania Division as those routes were longer. CNJ even had a sleeper on the "Williamsporter" than ran from Liberty Street to Williamsport from 1930 to early 1945. Passengers in sleepers had the luxury of staying on the train until 8:00 am in the morning.

I do know this, the last day of mail service on the CNJ was June 26, 1965. The cars used were baggage cars.

quote:

Does anyone know a source on correct 3R trucks for these cars?

I believe Weaver Models will be comming out with a 4 wheeled pax truck in Die cast for two & three rail....



http://www.weavermodels.com/page24.html

Jonathan:

Great thread....thanks!

The MTH Blue Comet baggage car requires one bit of additional tweaking. As you noted, the car name is Barnard with an "a" and not Bernard with an "e" as released by MTH, at least on the set I have.

I'll be spending more time on this forum. While not a 3RS modeler in the true sense of the word, I'll be coming here for true railroading conversation. The 3R Forum is getting out of hand. They're too busy talking about scrapple, the future of the magazine industry and donating blood for money.

Best regards,

Bob

Bob,

Great to see you posting over here. Your reasons are largely the same as mine for getting involved with this forum. While there are many approaches to scale modeling, this forum has thankfully so far largely avoided the nonsense that is not relevant to our modeling.

In the meantime, one of the goals of this forum is to lobby manufacturers to make more accurate trains. One of my goals is to see scale steel CNJ style passenger cars in my lifetime!