Jerry Kimble from Atlas has responded to an ongoing post on the Atlas forum regarding Atlas offering 3RS diesels. You can view the whole thread on the Atlas board HERE

Here is Jerry's response and my response to his response...

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Originally posted by Jerry Kimble

Gentlemen, we hear your comments loud and clear.This is also a subject that has been discussed both at our behind the curtain seminar and the Hi-Railers Unlimited meetings at York. As has already been pointed out, any of our 3-rail locomotives can be converted to a fixed front pilot and it's something we would be willing to do for any of you here at Atlas, of course done correctly. From a standpoint of a kit, it's something we've looked at and to do it properly with handrails extended, painted pilots, scale coupler, etc. wouldn't be cheap ($50.00 or more). Our dilemma in making a business case for this is if we gear up to do it, how large is the market. Is it just for the few who have room for 072 curves or is the market larger. We will continue to monitor this movement going forward as we certainly realize there is opportunity, we just don't know how much at this time.

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Jerry,

Thank you very much for giving us some insight into what is going on behind the scenes at Atlas. I have a question and a couple of points that I would like to make. First, you mentioned that Atlas would help us convert the front pilot. I'm wondering why only the front and not both. Also, I think $50 is a fair price for the fledgling 3RS crowd. MTH charges that same difference for their fixed pilot models. Also, might I suggest that you offer more small diesels. Even with fixed pilots a SW class switcher for example should be able to negotiate O45 or O54 I would think.

In the mean time, how should we go about getting the conversion parts?

While I have your attention I would like to put in my plug for more Chessie System diesels

Thanks!

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Jerry,

I actually misread one portion of your post.

Just so I am correct, We can ship our 3R Atlas diesel back to Atlas to have them converted to fixed pilots? If that is correct, please provide us with details on price and how to go about this.

While I'm at it, I was wondering if Atlas 2R diesels w/TMCC can be converted to 3RS? Seems like it wouldn't be that difficult. Would Atlas be willing to do that as well? If so then I will be packing up 6 diesel and shipping them to you ASAP

Thanks again.

Very interesting. Having converted 5 Atlas diesels to fixed pilots and full handrails, I have a few thoughts. First, the claim that Atlas always has provided the option glosses over what is needed to exercise this "option."

For example, by my count, conversion of a GP 60 or 60M (I've done three) requires some 21 additional parts (not counting mounting screws). That is assuming that you re-use the steps, MU hoses, plows, grab irons and and the like from the three rail pilot and supply your own couplers. Forget that assumption for the grab irons -- they are impossible to remove, so order those as well (4 more parts at .75 each) or make your own from wire. You can remove everything else, though you will break off the mounting tabs for the steps and the coupler cut bar mounting rings. At least if you are careful these nevertheless can be re-used. You will have to paint the pilots, additional steps, and hand rails. At least you can save some money by fashioning your own full length handrails out of wire, or even paper clips. Since some of these parts are not in stock anyway, you will have to.

Anyone who has ever removed the body from an Atlas diesel knows that the only experience that is less fun is trying to reinstall it without breaking anything or pinching any wires. But you have to do that to remove the three rail pilots. (Alternatively, you can cut them off with a Dremel-type tool; I've taken both approaches depending on the engine). The pilots come in black so you may have to paint them to match other colors. And you must tap the mounting holes in the chassis. The Dash 8s use fewer parts, and you simply fix the three rail pilot using a spacer. But you have to cut off the three rail mounting tab, so there's no going back.

Even to do all of this, the parts must be in stock. Bill in the parts department was very helpful, but even he I found did not realize all of the parts involved in the GP 60M project (I had to go back and order additional steps and the MU recepticles). The GP 60s actually use different 2 rail pilots for front and back. Natually, the back pilots are out of stock. I improvised and installed front ones -- the difference is minor; where the MU recepticles mount, but you'll have to cut and custom fit the MU parts to make it work. I had similar problems with the Dash 8s. Some of the handrails were not in stock. Again I improvised by making my own. In fact, to save money, I fabricated all of my own full length handrails for the GP 60Ms. Similarly, the Dash 8 pilot spacer listed on the on-line parts website does not work for the wide cab Dash 8s. (Fortunately, after a phone call to Bill, he was able to find me some of what I needed).

The point is that the "option" Atlas currently provides is pretty close to a bash sort of project. Having seen what is involved, I do think kits are not feasible. Even if all of the parts are pre-packaged and even painted (for all the different roads Atlas offers for each model), the assembly steps will not be for everyone, especially those whose blood runs cold at the thought of taking a tap wrench to a $400 model. Any idea that all this stuff can just be included in the box with the model is simply unrealistic.

I feel no small satisfaction in having done the job myself, but its taken a lot of time and effort I might devote to other projects. So I would like a better option, and I think the most feasible option is for Atlas to implement a pre-order option for fixed pilots and full hand rails and for models to be finished that way at the factory. Obviously the two rail models are being made that way, so it strikes me as entirely feasible. Doing it this way allows Atlas to gauge actual interest, which is not necessarily what you get from people clamoring for extra parts to be tossed in the box. I encourage everyone interested to speak up in favor of the ordering option. Wouldn't you like your diesels to look like this?

Great post Rich.

It appears Atlas may have conceded the impossible task of putting fixed pilots on their engines by offering a service to do this. To supply a kit (kitbash really) has only made it easier to gather the stuff, not actually do the job. This should be an easy thing to provide, market, and sell. One day someone will launch a campaign picturing, "Would you rather have your engine look like this (pic of floating pilot diesel, gap, huge hole in pilot and half length handrails with tinplate coupler) or this (pic of a fixed pilot diesel).

Rich

How do your longer, 6 axle diesels track through complicated switches (yards, crossovers, sidings, e.t.c.) Knowing EXACTLY how 3RS engines (with fixed pilots w/ kaydee couplers) will operate in those situations will go a long way in my deciding to start making these conversions.

Jim Weaver has chimed in over on the Atlas boards... YA-HOOOO!!
http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=47821&whichpage=2
- RICH

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am wildly impressed with people like Jim Weaver and Scott Mann for actively participating in these forums, and listening to the customer. There are certainly lots of business reasons for their product marketing decisions to make or not make certain products, most of which are not discussed here. But at least I feel they listen to the customer. I am more inclined to buy more from Atlas and 3rd Rail/Sunset because these specific people rationally discuss issues brought up specific to their products, and not simply spew marketing gibberish (apologies to you folks in marketing, but I'm sure you know what I mean).

Hats off to you guys!

Pete,

Thanks very much. I rather wish I had taken a picture of one of the Dash 8s, which were very bad pilot "gapsters." I have another pair on order; perhaps I'll take a "before" picture before converting them.

Rich,

I have not converted any six axle diesels (perhaps I should say "yet"), Pete and Rich Battista are the guys to speak to about them. Based on Pete's and Rich's past reports, though, I feel sufficiently confident about six axle models to order fixed pilot models on the ES 44s and SD 45s, which I eagerly await. What I can tell you is this: I have fixed pilots on GP 60Ms and Dash 8s and routinely run them in 3-5 unit consists. My main lines have 072 curves. My rolling stock includes MTH autoracks, converted and with body mounted scale couplers as described in the "modifying cars" thread, and MTH Husky stack cars with body mounted scale couplers. These cars are as large as pretty much any six axle diesel. Everything handles 072 curves on the mainline just fine. I have one tight spot where a double track main goes to single track entering a 90 turn consisting of 072 curves. To make it work, I used a dog leg 072 switch. The straight leg of the switch connects to one track with a single 054 curve, the only one on my main line. All of the equipment described above handles this curve without incident. The crossover with 7.5 switches in the picture is a piece of cake. Everything also handles # 5 switches into sidings without a problem. I figure if two long cars with body mounted Kadees make a turn, then a six axle diesel coupled to those cars will do the same.

I felt many of the same qualms and quizzed Pete and Rich about fixed pilots and Kadees several times before taking the plunge. Then, what I did, and you might consider this, is convert a few of my autoracks to Kadees to try things out. The results were so good, I haven't looked back.

Mark,

I agree that its good that folks like Jim Weaver and Scott Mann tune in and participate and its very much appreciated. Though less visible, the folks at MTH do the same from time to time. And while I chide them a little on the pilot option, I'm glad to see Atlas is paying attention and taking some initial steps along the lines we are urging. And I readily concede that everything customers say they want has to be weighed by the manufacturer in terms of business considerations as well as technical feasibility. All we can do as customers is let our wishes be known and maybe try to generate enough interest among fellow hobbyists to make some of these projects more worthwhile from a business standpoint. Some of us have been talking about fixed pilot options for a while now and now Atlas says they will backfit engines on request. My hunch is that's a little pilot program (no pun intended) designed both to accomodate customers, but also, and maybe more importantly, as another gauge of just how much interest there really is. Are people just talking about this, or are they willing to actually send an engine for conversion. (Maybe I'll do it, but in case not, I hope they also are watching parts orders...). Most importantly, I'm hopeful this is a big step on the way to an ordering option.

RM

quote:

How do your longer, 6 axle diesels track through complicated switches (yards, crossovers, sidings, e.t.c.) Knowing EXACTLY how 3RS engines (with fixed pilots w/ kaydee couplers) will operate in those situations will go a long way in my deciding to start making these conversions.

Rich,

6 axle runs great here on 072. You may have problems with s curves if you have any without a transition track in the middle. No problem running through yards, Ross and Atlas switches.

Already have an e-mail request to Jim Weaver to get my recently acquired, and never out of the box, Northern Pacific GP9s converted.

Ready to write the check today.

Regards,
Jerry Zeman

In looking at a well-reasoned post by Brian Scace in the "Why do we need the HUGE wheel flanges" thread, I'm wondering if we're approaching this the wrong way. Maybe we should be looking at getting the 2-rail DC models, pickup rollers, and adding our own electronics. Mike Pitogo has an Atlas Trainman CSX GP15 with Proto-2 installed. It would be a Proto3-2 locomotive by adding a switch and pickup rollers. Maybe this is a more practical direction to take.

Just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by AGHRMatt:
In looking at a well-reasoned post by Brian Scace in the "Why do we need the HUGE wheel flanges" thread, I'm wondering if we're approaching this the wrong way. Maybe we should be looking at getting the 2-rail DC models, pickup rollers, and adding our own electronics. Mike Pitogo has an Atlas Trainman CSX GP15 with Proto-2 installed. It would be a Proto3-2 locomotive by adding a switch and pickup rollers. Maybe this is a more practical direction to take.

Just a thought.

I've thought of this too. I have several DC 2R Atlas engines as well as one 2R TMCC engine. I thought the TMCC engine would be the easiest to convert.. just add rollers, change a few wires, and swap out the wheelsets. But it isn't that simple. I can't even find the parts for the wheelsets. I think I have to order new trucks which then need painted. Ugh. If Atlas is willing to convert these models for us, I will pay them for that service. MTH is by far the leader here though. Proto 2/3 was an ingenious idea and the bulk of my new purchases will be MTH because of it.

quote:

Originally posted by jonnyspeed:

quote:

Originally posted by AGHRMatt:
In looking at a well-reasoned post by Brian Scace in the "Why do we need the HUGE wheel flanges" thread, I'm wondering if we're approaching this the wrong way. Maybe we should be looking at getting the 2-rail DC models, pickup rollers, and adding our own electronics. Mike Pitogo has an Atlas Trainman CSX GP15 with Proto-2 installed. It would be a Proto3-2 locomotive by adding a switch and pickup rollers. Maybe this is a more practical direction to take.

Just a thought.

I've thought of this too. I have several DC 2R Atlas engines as well as one 2R TMCC engine. I thought the TMCC engine would be the easiest to convert.. just add rollers, change a few wires, and swap out the wheelsets. But it isn't that simple. I can't even find the parts for the wheelsets. I think I have to order new trucks which then need painted. Ugh. If Atlas is willing to convert these models for us, I will pay them for that service. MTH is by far the leader here though. Proto 2/3 was an ingenious idea and the bulk of my new purchases will be MTH because of it.

Actually, don't change the wheelsets. If it's a 4-axle Atlas, it will run on O-72. Atlas also uses "all-wheel" pickup on their locomotives. The only way to do this is with double-insulated axles and wipers on all wheels. All you have to do is put in a DPDT switch to re-direct the wiring for 2-rail or 3-rail operation. I have the diagram somewhere around here. I'll scan it and post it for anyone interested. It's the same trick I used when I was tinkering around with making hybrid locomotives several years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by AGHRMatt:

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Originally posted by jonnyspeed:

quote:

Originally posted by AGHRMatt:
In looking at a well-reasoned post by Brian Scace in the "Why do we need the HUGE wheel flanges" thread, I'm wondering if we're approaching this the wrong way. Maybe we should be looking at getting the 2-rail DC models, pickup rollers, and adding our own electronics. Mike Pitogo has an Atlas Trainman CSX GP15 with Proto-2 installed. It would be a Proto3-2 locomotive by adding a switch and pickup rollers. Maybe this is a more practical direction to take.

Just a thought.

I've thought of this too. I have several DC 2R Atlas engines as well as one 2R TMCC engine. I thought the TMCC engine would be the easiest to convert.. just add rollers, change a few wires, and swap out the wheelsets. But it isn't that simple. I can't even find the parts for the wheelsets. I think I have to order new trucks which then need painted. Ugh. If Atlas is willing to convert these models for us, I will pay them for that service. MTH is by far the leader here though. Proto 2/3 was an ingenious idea and the bulk of my new purchases will be MTH because of it.

Actually, don't change the wheelsets. If it's a 4-axle Atlas, it will run on O-72. Atlas also uses "all-wheel" pickup on their locomotives. The only way to do this is with double-insulated axles and wipers on all wheels. All you have to do is put in a DPDT switch to re-direct the wiring for 2-rail or 3-rail operation. I have the diagram somewhere around here. I'll scan it and post it for anyone interested. It's the same trick I used when I was tinkering around with making hybrid locomotives several years ago.

That's great info Matt! I'll take a copy of the diagram if you have it.

Found the hand-drawn schematic. Didn't scan well. I put together another one using RR-Track. Basically, in 2-rail mode, the right wheel is connected to the hot side of the electronics. In 3-rail mode, the pickup is wired to the hot side of the electronics and the right wheel is tied into the left wheel for common to function like any other 3-rail locomotive. In my reading, the first locomotive to do this was built back in the late 1950's. It's a pretty safe bet this is how MTH Proto 3-2 locomotives are wired...it's about the only efficient way.

This will only work with a locomotive which has 8-wheel (or 12-wheel) pickup because you need to have fully-insulated axles for this to work. Otherwise, you can short out through the frame.

Here you go.

The latest news from Jim Weaver @ Atlas:

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Originally posted by Jim Weaver

jonnyspeed,
Since this is a new endeavor and to get this project underway, lets start with one diesel that you wish to be re-equipped. Please send it to our customer service dept. (attn: Bill Serratelli). Before we do the retro we will let you know the cost and what exactly we will include in the refit (pilots, handrails, etc.). Upon your approval we will do it and I do not expect a long turn-around time.
Just to let you know, I have been planning to include full scale pilots in all the 3-rail locos for some time. But to do it right, new handrail sets must also be included. 3RS is a relatively new push and just how far reaching it is with operators is an unknown. I cannot initially start including all of the necessary parts with a locomotive and raise the item's price if the majority of purchasers will never use the parts.
Atlas O is in an extremely good position to offer this sevice at this time. I am proud to say that for QUITE some time, there is absolutely no backlog in repairs, warranty or otherwise. And not speaking out of turn, I relate this to the quality we build into our products.
As to one of your other questions, the conversion of a 2R TMCC loco to a 3R TMCC is relatively easy with a change of the wheelsets and power pick-ups. We would still like to do the switch to ensure the re-wiring is correct.
And thanks for your other suggestions.
Jim

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Jim,

Thank you very much! I will start by sending my Chessie SD35. I understand the need to feel out the market first, but why would you need to put it in every kit? What about offering the parts factory installed for say $50 more than the regular 3 rail loco? You obviously know more about this than I do, but I just thought I'd throw it out there. I will be traveling this week, but as soon as I get home I will send it off to Atlas. I'm looking forward to getting these converted.

Thanks again!

I would like to have several Atlas O diesel converted to fix pilots. I would have three GP35s, six SD35 and two SD40s and two GP9s convereted.

Jonnyspeed,

Did you ever get your diesels sent into Atlas for the conversion and sent back? We're all quite excited to hear about the results. I should be getting the Atlas GP-60s soon and without even opening it, I will be sending it back to Atlas for conversion if I hear some good positive feedback from you. Please let us know.

Thank you!

I'd rather just be a kit and do it myself. I would not like to be charged a labor fee on top of shipping the engine back and forth.

Still, offer kits, or have diagrams on the website with part #'s, so we can order appropriately.

Atleast Atlas is doing something. Thank you for that.

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Originally posted by Ansonnn:
Jonnyspeed,

Did you ever get your diesels sent into Atlas for the conversion and sent back? We're all quite excited to hear about the results. I should be getting the Atlas GP-60s soon and without even opening it, I will be sending it back to Atlas for conversion if I hear some good positive feedback from you. Please let us know.

Thank you!

Not yet. I've been away on business for the last 2 weeks. I hope to get one or two sent off to Atlas in the next couple of days.

I'd like to see Atlas sell the 3R fixed pilot version from the factory like MTH does with the 3R/2R "-2" engines. Fixed pilots are getting more and more popular....

Jonnyspeed,

Please let us know how everything went. If all goes well and I receive my Atlas GP60s before you, I will use the information you posted and send my GP60s in to Atlas. I am the impatient type and the pics that Rich Montague posted just makes me want it done even sooner. An even more beautiful engine with that fixed pilot put on. I can't wait.

---Phil

One of the potential larger problems I see if I was a 3Rer converting the pilots myself or even as a 2Rer changing out anything that is painted on an Atlas locomotive is matching the colors of these exquisite factory paint jobs.

A pilot that is a couple shades off in color can look almost as bad as a gap. Scratch the paint on the shell removing or re-installing it during the conversion and you have an even bigger problem. Touch up paint from Atlas would be a major plus for the customer in my opinion; but a PITA for Atlas I'm sure.

I asked Atlas what paint brand they used when I wanted to touch up my UP GP-9's a couple of years ago and found out it's not that simple. The paint is(was) custom mixed on site in China. Finding a match wasn't an option without lots of mixing and matching of available brand name paints and the results were acceptable at best. To me (as a non-painter) the factory applied paint on the newer offerings is one of the major strong points. I've only seen a handful of custom paint jobs out of hunderds that rival the quality of Atlas factory paint. So, having touch-up paint would be a real plus to all these conversion that I believe will be taking place.

Butch

Butch,

A good point about matching paint, but I think it just underscores the difficulty in the do-it-yourself option. Things like black and silver are easy to match, most everything else is not. I just used Testors bright silver on the conversion pictured above. Easy to match. Matching the Santa Fe blue on my standard cab GP 60 has been more of a challenge. (Instead of sending in the engine, I may see if Atlas will just paint me a two rail pilot, instead). That blue, by the way is different from the blue on the Santa Fe GP 35s. And I still think that a lot of people will balk at having to disassemble the engines, tap holes in the chassis and so on. A three rail scale order option is the way to go.

RM