I run MTH, Premier, high rail locomotives, diesels and electrics, and a few Legacy diesels; on Lionel Fastrack with O-72 curves. I have always been tempted to try one of MTH's scale diesels, but haven't, because of a comment made by a shop service tech. He said a scale locomotive can have problems climbing the rails. Could that happen on my layout?


Rick

If you have severe grades, the scale wheel models lack traction tires. No grades to speak of, nothing to worry about.

BBB

Thanks,........Rick

I think the issue the tech is worried about is running the 2 rail like scale wheels on a rail with the profile of Fastrack. I don't see how grades would be an issue from a derailment standpoint. Maybe with an adhesion and wheelslip issues though. I'd be worried about derailments in a curve. Has anyone here tried it?

I am not sure but, I think the tech was concerned that, the loc might climb up over the rails. Possibly because of the smaller wheel flanges and the fixed pilots. I like the big guys; SD 70 ACe/M-2, ES44AC/DC, AC4400CW's etc.; and at the time he warned me, I was running with O-54 curves.


Rick

Are you talking about the MTH scale diesels w/ fixed pilots and scale wheels? You'll need track with a squared shoulder like MTH scaletrax or Atlas. The big six-axle units also like 072 or larger curves, and are very sensitive to track laying.

Geno

Geno,

I have recently ordered a MTH, scale wheel, with a fixed pilot, BNSF Genset. I have O-72 curves Fastrack on my layout; and have ordered a set of Hi-rail wheels as a back-up, just in case I have tracking problems. I have always wanted a loco with a fixed pilot, it looks more realistic to me.


Rick

I'd say you're all set, once you swap the hi-rail wheelsets in. Does MTH install the couplers now? I had to install Kadees on the scale SD-70ACe I ordered some time ago.

Geno,


I'm not sure about the couplers; if I have to do them, is it very difficult?


Rick

Not really- you just need to buy the Kadees and mount them. MTH should have the coupler pocket set up to take the coupler assemblies like they were on the scale SD-70 ACe.

Geno,

Thanks


Rick

Rick,

Just to add to Geno's advice, the couplers are an easy installation; MTH even includes the mounting screws. As I recall MTH has recommended the Kadee 806 coupler. That's a special short shank coupler with a smaller draft gear box for tight installations. The other Kadees, 805s, which are the metal ones and the plastic variants of the 805, have a slightly longer shank and give more swing in the curves. For that reason, I use those on all my big six axle diesels. To install them, I just cut a little off the box so that the truck block clears it.

Its difficult to know which of the two Kadee designs might be better for an engine not yet released. Its just something to keep in mind when you go to install couplers. A lot of three rail scale is experimentation.

RM

Rich,

I appreciate the advice, thanks.


Rick

Rich,

I have two MTH ES44DC's (CN & CSX) on order, Hi-rail versions. I just saw your UP SD70ACE, on another thread; that's what I am looking for in a model. I'm thinking about changing my DC order to sale versions (Hi-rail wheels as a backup). Since the DC model has been previously released, what would you recommend for couplers?

Rick

Rick,

I recommend avoiding the 806 short shank coupler on those big six axle units and using one of the regular Kadees, the metal 805 or the plastic variants. The plastic ones are identical to the metal 805, are quite robust and work very well (I believe the numbers are 801, 802 and 804, the different numbers signifying the color plastic, black, brown and red). I typically combine a metal 805 box with the end cut off with a plastic coupler in order to avoid any shorts should the metal trip pin ever contact the third rail. An alternative is to use the metal coupler and simply remove the metal trip pin.

Here are a pair of ES44DCs set up as I described:

Rich,

Thanks for the time and effort helping me get up to speed. I have a few more questions:

- can I run a scale (with kadee couplers etc.) locomotive in a lash up with Hi-rail locs?

- will a scale loc be able to couple up with my Hi-rail rolling stock?

- who sells the kadee couplers?

- when you purchase a new, Scale wheel version, MTH locomotive; do you get any couplers with it?

- will the scale loc be able to couple and release via my DCS remote; like my Hi-rail locs?

By the way, I just got my order for the ESDCs changed to scale versions.

Again, thank-you


Rick

This message has been edited. Last edited by: omax,

Rick,

Feel free to ask those questions; that's why this forum is here. As with any new subject some things are unclear until one gets a little farther along.

"- can I run a scale (with kadee couplers etc.) locomotive in a lash up with Hi-rail locs?"

I tried it once and the only problem (but a significant one) was that they would not stay coupled. Although Kadees generally will couple to tinplate couplers, for them to remain coupled there usually needs to be some tension holding them together. When I tried a lash up of a scale wheeled engine and a high rail engine, they ran fine together, but the speed was so closely matched that there wasn't enough tension to hold the couplers together and they uncoupled on the curves. This is probably one of those things theoretically possible, but hard to make work in reliable practice.

"will a scale loc be able to couple up with my Hi-rail rolling stock?"

Generally yes, but within the limits I mentioned above -- if the couplers don't remain in tension, they may come apart. The most common example, is restarting in forward after backing the train. The three rail coupler might get slightly out of line and release from the Kadee. (I encounter the problem in reverse; I still have some high rail engines I run with Kadee-equipped cars). If you want to run a Kadee-equipped locomotive with high-rail rolling stock, it might be a good idea to create a transition car with a Kadee on one end and three rail coupler on the other. Of course, you can convert all your rolling stock; once you start, you quickly want to change over all of them.

"- when you purchase a new, Scale wheel version, MTH locomotive; do you get any couplers with it?"

No. You have to buy the Kadees separately. Kadee sells directly on line, but there are other retailers that offer discounts, some if you buy multiple pairs.

"- will the scale loc be able to couple and release via my DCS remote; like my Hi-rail locs?"

No. And this is an important point to understand, especially if you are buying a switcher. The scale wheel locomotives commit you either to using under track magnets or to manual uncoupling. No automatic uncoupling as with high rail command control engines. I think that is well worth it given the improved appearance of the locomotive. And while you give up automatic uncoupling with Kadees, there is the benefit of ease of coupling (which is half of what couplers do). You will be amazed at how much easier it is to couple with Kadees than with three rail couplers. I think a lot of us pause over giving up the electrocoupler before going the Kadee route. I did, but decided that I wanted more scale-like engines. Besides, since one still has to uncouple all the cars by hand or by magnet, in the grand scheme of things does it really matter whether the engine has a nifty automatic coupler. Maybe if switching some hard-to-reach track, yes, but otherwise? Not really.

All of that said, MTH recently has released HO locomotives with an electrocoupler and word is that it will be adapted to the Premier line O scale scale-wheeled engines as a scale electrocoupler at some point in the future. But we don't know when that will be or in which models it will begin to appear.

Hope this helps.

RM

Rich,

The information you have provided definitely helps. I have never seen a metal 805 box; nor do I know what has to be cut but; I think I will get a better understanding when I see these items in front of me. I like your prevention suggestion, re: combing a metal box with a plastic coupler. I think the visual aspect of seeing a more accurate representation of the prototype will definitely trump any other issues. I currently have an excellent Hi-rail collection, which I am very proud of but; the fixed pilot/scale look can't be beat, in my opinion.

P.S. As I was writing this, my Hi-rail collection just got bigger; Canpar just delivered my MTH GP35.


Thanks a lot Rich,


Rick

This message has been edited. Last edited by: omax,

Rick,

Interesting that you wrote or have already grasped 3RS by stating that

quote:

my Hi-rail collection just got bigger; Canpar just delivered my MTH GP35.

For, indeed the MTH GP35 is not a scale (3RS) engine but a Hi-Rail one, as the trucks are not scale. Any MTH engine with Blomberg trucks is not a scale model. We are trying to get MTH to correct this.

http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve...21021474/m/159102571

Pete,

Re: GP 35 trucks; when Ann Arbor ordered 10 new GP35's; they had EMD put the trucks from their Alco FA trade-ins, on them. That version might be of interest to some 3RS modelers as well.



Rick

Rick,

You make a great point on the accuracy of the type of trucks on this model. However the same truck block is used for the AAR style trucks as MTH does for the Blomberg trucks. If you have a Facebook account, become a fan of MTH and comment on their page how you'd like to see them re-tooled (the tooling is as old as MTH itself).

This will get updated and their 4 axle trucked models will get just that much better.

Thanks for your observations in this thread.

Re: Trucks


I've seen a number of posts, by 3RS guys , that point out the incorrectness of MTH's Premier Blomberg trucks; General Purpose units and F Units appear to have these. I have never personally measured these trucks to check for authenticity. I notice when I look at my F3/F7 ABA units and my new GP 35; they look like the truck is set too far back, from the front pilot(steps). There is an obvious empty space that looks imbalanced, and out of place; this causes the unit to loose some of its mass and physical presence. Too me, real locomotives , when viewed from the front, have an awe inspiring presence to them; and that is what I am looking for in a model.


Rick

Omax,

Take some time to read only the threads on the first page, many of your questions will be answered. Here is the very shocking difference in the trucks between the Atlas blombergs and the MTH ones. The MTH trucks are a scale 9 inches too short!

MTH


Atlas


The new GP35 looks even worse, chunky and high riding. For some reason, nearly comical looking on a hood unit. Maybe Railking Scale is more scale than Premier right now?

Pete,


From the side shots you posted; I see the Atlas model as being, a fuller, more balanced looking locomotive. I am a very visually orientated person; and my "critical eye" (for lack of better wording) immediately picks up on the aesthetics of things. I have always viewed my trains and my layout as 3 dimensional art. I also like real trains and I know what their supposed to look like. Given the choice, I will seek out the best representation available.


Rick

From my point of view, "given the choice" is a crucial factor for 3RS modelers. If you're into diesels, like I am; then your options (products available) that are true scale, are quite limited. That's why I will continue to buy models, like my new GP35; because that's what's available, at the moment. With that kind of purchase, I am still getting enough satisfaction from the model to make it worthwhile.

On the other-hand, I would love to have a MTH premier SD70MAC; but not what they are currently offering; which is, as you know, a SD70M with a Mac sticker on it. When it comes to high end products; repackaging doesn't do it for me. Build a proper version, i.e. with the 4 sets of AC traction air vents; and make it the proper length, I believe the Mac should be about 20 inches longer than the SD70M. Do those type of things right; and I'll buy one, maybe even two.


Rick

Rick,

I would offer the opinion that if you are interested in a scale GP35, then I would consider the Atlas option as well since it is really about the same level of detail as the current MTH, but with scale trucks. I realize there is a lot of interest in DCS over the TMCC version, but the Atlas GP35 looks more like the real thing. Since it's been out a few years, one can be had for a fraction of the cost of a new one and if DCS is your thing, then it can be added.

As for fixed pilots, I believe Atlas sells the parts for a conversion on a 3r unit. Not having a GEEP 35, I can't say for sure. However, I can say that I'm very happy with my WM Atlas SD35's and simply need to clip the big couplers and fix the pilots to make them complete. A lot of work? Sure, but no one ever said this hobby was easy

Personally, I can hold out for a proper scale 4 axle truck from MTH. When it does come out, they have a very happy customer. I am a huge fan of the F40PH and from the base of the cowl up, it is a great model. 3RS'ing one was a blast. The trucks were an issue, but I lived with it at the time. However, no more for me until the truck gets fixed.

I've said it in a number of threads and mentioned it to MTH on their Facebook page - in a similar light the NJT ALP44 is a AEM7 with a fancy paint job. That was enough of a concern to cancel a pre-order. The Atlas ALP44 of 2002 is a superior model even if is does have that ridiculous Dallee control system.

You certainly seem interested in faithful scale reproductions. Help keep the manufacturers honest with you train budget. If you do, they will make the corrections and they will see the benefit from more sales.

Jonathan,

I am currently, at a very comfortable point with my my train collection. A few years ago, I began a concerted effort to acquire, in two years, a quality collection of O gauge locomotives. Modern diesel-electrics were my primary focus. I now have that collection. Every locomotive that was a first choice for me, is currently in my collection. I originally wanted scale, for the greater accuracy to the prototype but; I was talked out of it by a service tech I know. So I went with the next best thing, scale Hi-rail.

I am now purchasing secondary choices; and I have decided to try my hand at MTH scale. I have three top of the line MTH scale engines on order; and I am going to see how I like them, before making any more commitment in that area.

The company I have chosen to supply my equipment is MTH. I have had my share of problems with their products but, in the end, they have always taken care of me. In my opinion, they lead the pack with the variety of product that appeals to me. I like the fact; that, they are autonomous, and they don't have to rely on another company to produce parts or systems for them; and most of all, I like their products the best (when they are made properly).

I have an Atlas MP15DC on order but; I do not like the fact that, Atlas puts other companies products in their locomotives, i.e. TAS and EOB. I don't like the fact that, yet another company's (Lionel) old technology is used as a operating system. If anything was to happen to these companies, Atlas would be in trouble, and so would their customers. I am under the impression that, Atlas molds in a lot of their detail. I personally like add on metal details.

I have a Lionel Legacy Wabash Train Master on order but, I have informed my dealer that; if it comes with those over-sized wheel flanges, then I am going to cancel my order. When the Vision catalog first came out, I signed up for the ES44AC; and then changed my mind. I learned my lesson with the two Legacy SD70ACe's I purchased. I hardly ever run these engines due to them bumping in my O-72 (Lionel's own FasTrack) switches. It ------ me off that these guys knew there was a problem; and yet they still sold the defective product. I also don't like the fact that, Vision purchasers are supposed to get SPECIAL PRIORITY SERVICE; as opposed to the regular poor slob, who couldn't afford the big bucks, and has to settle for less. Treating people like second class doesn't go over well with me.

I, too, can see short comings in certain models but; I can also overlook those short comings, if I like other qualities in that product. I have a keen eye but, I am not a rivet counter. I also really don't like having to give up the Proto-Coupler function; that is like a step backwards, and it certainly isn't realistic. I aspire to have the best, and I will attempt to get there.

As I have already stated, I am very proud of my train collection. For the most part, I have accomplished the goal I set for myself; and anything extra is a bonus for me.


Rick

This message has been edited. Last edited by: omax,

I ran a scale-wheeled, fixed pilot SD70ACe on my Ross-tracked layout (before I was going to install the hi-rail wheels). It tracked fine on the track, but the narrow, scale profile wheels can't handle the switch frogs on Ross switches. The frogs are deep and wide to accommodate the tin-plate wheels. The scale wheels fall into the gap and then can't decide which direction they want to go when they come out the other side (this is also due to the guard rail spacing being too wide). Ross track does have a flat top profile even though it technically is tubular track.

A fellow at Rich Yoder's booth at York installs styrene fillers in the frogs' bottoms to keep the scale flanges from falling in. This fix only works if you intend on changing ALL of your wheels to scale profile, because tin-plate wheels will ride out of the frog and probably derail. I chose not to even think about this since I didn't intend on changing all my equipment AND I couldn't reach many switches to make the modification.

I really like the way scale wheels and fixed pilots look. My wife thinks I'm daffy.

Myles

Myles,


I am not intending on changing all my equipment either; and now, thanks to your help, I have a better understanding of what I am up against. I'll install Hi-rail wheels if I have too, but; if I really like the look of the scale wheels, I might add a separate track to run the scale locs on. I'm tight for space but, I might be able to go up in elevation, with another track. I have quite a bit of MTH RealTrax sitting in boxes that I could use. The only problem might be my RealTrax has O-54 curves. I don't know how good a scale ES44DC would do on O-54 curves. I have a feeling that; I am really going to like the look of scale wheels.

Thanks,

Rick

Rick,
Just a thought…………………You may need to make some test runs with the 0-54 Curves. I don’t think you can operate (2) MTH ES44AC’s (Scale Wheel) version in a consist very well on 0-54 track.

0-72 Curves are probably the minimum curve.

Regards,
Swafford