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My local Hobby Shop is trying tyo sell me a late model Lionel Sante Fe PA set. It has a large, lighted numberboard on side of the A-unit. Is that prototypical and did the B&O use it also?
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For the Santa Fe, It is prototypical. For any other railroad, no. Only the SF had the side lighted numberboard. and only the SF, D&H and NdeM had the over the cab numberboard casting too.
member: TCA |
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Jim:
The D&H units (since they came from Santa Fe) retained the side number boxes. When they were rebuilt in the mid-70s, the rebuilder (MK) re-installed them, so they work for D&H as well. Hope it helps, Brian |
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The Baltimore and Ohio Railroad NEVER rostered the ALCo PA/PB passenger diesel. B&O did have several ALCo FA-2/FB-2 freight locos with the B-B trucks.
Chessie Man Moving Black Diamonds from the Alleghanies to Tidewater.  |
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Didn't the Denver and Rio Grande's Yellow PAs have this lighting for their numberboards too? Tom Grimason NJ Northern DIV UP Subdivision |
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The D$RGW PA's when delivered were in solid silver with side number windows for use on the California Zypher. They were repainted very soon and did not retain the silver long. Ed
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So what is the difference between Erie-built PA's and "ordinary" PA's?
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I have only heard of Fairbanks Morris passenger units refered to as Erie builts.Ed
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The Alco factory was located in Schenectady, New York and that's where the PA &PB units were manufactured, as well as all other Alco products.
The General Electric factory is still located in Erie, PA. |
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Jim,
The American Locomotive Company (ALCO) built the PA and PB passenger locomtives. Fairbanks Morse (FM) "built" the "Erie Builts" which were FM locomotives assembled at the GE plant in Erie. What I've read is they did not have a plant large enough at the time to construct them and they most likely used GE electrical parts so they had an incentive to help out. I believe all the other US production of FM units, such as the C-Liners, the Trainmasters and other models, was done in Beloit, Wisconsin. You sometimes see images of them in primer operating on the old Milwaukee Road. (Of course this was all way before my time so blame the guys who wrote the books I've read if I'm wrong!) |
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So when you call an Erie-built a PA, it is just "similar in looks. Actually they are very different engines. Ford vs Chevy or ALCO vs FM.
Should we consider Alco PA's to be passenger and FM PA's freight? |
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Alco PA locomotives were passenger engines. The "P" in PA stands for Passenger. The Alco FAs (4 wheel trucks instead of 6 wheels) were, you guessed it, used for "F" freight service. I don't know much about the FM Erie-builts. I'm not sure if they were used for freight or passenger or both. I do know they did not last very long. 2 railer but respectful to 3 railers! Happy Railroading Everyone! Stilll waiting for 1:48 scaled autos.... Phil |
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The Union Pacific received their first F M Erie builts I believe in 1947 for passenger service but by the early 1950's they were re-geared and used for freight. The reason being they were not reliable for passenger service. Ed
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ALCO PA's and FM Erie Builts are very different locomotives. They would possibly resemble each other far away. The PA front is squareish while the Erie built front is rounded to nearly a taper when viewed from above.
If I knew how the heck to attach images I would, but these links should help: ALCO PA's: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/sf55.jpg http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=a...if&sel=die&sz=sm&fr= FM Erie built's: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_prr9484.jpg http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=f...if&sel=die&sz=sm&fr= |
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Jim:
For clarity... The Eries are not "PA"s. Calling them such is in error. The first Fairbanks Morse cab/booster model is the so-called "Erie-built" The Alco passenger cab unit with a-1-a trucks is the PA. The Alco passenger booster unit with a-1-a trucks is the PB. For fun... In use, the "Erie" could be bought in either a freight or passenger service configuration (NYC had both freight and passenger Eries, for example). Same general carbody, same wheel arrangement, same general electro-mechanical arrangement; different traction motor/axle gearing, ballast weight, and presence/lack of a steam generator determined a freight vs. passenger Erie as delivered. Those changes could also be done in service, and several roads re-geared passenger Eries for freight use during their service life. The PA/PB was intended as a passenger unit (though many roads regeared them during their service life and put 'em in freight service, notably PRR). Alco freight cabs were a discrete model onto themselves intended for that service. Big difference in manufacturer philosophy. Hope it clears up the mud a bit. Brian |
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Thanks guys, most of this has served to get me closer to make up my mind on which engine I should buy....Should I ask myself if I need another engine?
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I wouldn't. Of course you do! |
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RR...your mentioning Santa Fe PA's caught my eye. I run an MTH Alco PA (ABA) on the layout with a set of streamlined passenger cars to replicate the "Super Chief." Definitely my favorite train on the layout....the war bonnet paint scheme is great. Hope you buy the Lionel!
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To add to the fun the Santa Fe PA's went to D&H and from their to NdeM hence the same number boards on the same engines. The last four in existence are the original Santa Fe's with two still in Mexico and the two that were sent back to the US.
Everyone has pretty well covered it on the Erie Builts. They were FM's attempt at a passenger locomotive using thier opposed piston submarine engines that worked well in sealed environments, but not so well inside a locomotive. They did not last long on any roster. Jonathan Peiffer TCA 01-53047 Modeling the Arizona Subdivisions of the CNJ and PRR  |
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What is the history of these Alco's FPA-4 from the Grand Canyon website. The A unit appears to have lighted number boards. What is the difference between a a PA and FA and an FPA-4???
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I beleive that folks are talking about the lighted number board that appears midway down the carbody as it appears on number 66 below.
 FWIW, B&O never had ALCo PA/PB passenger unit or any FM C-Liners or FM Erie builts. B&O bought only EMD passenger diesels. Chessie Man Moving Black Diamonds from the Alleghanies to Tidewater. |
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The PA's were built to move pass trains. However, as those trains dried up, they were moved on some roads to run M&E, and/or T/COFC trains to get as many miles out of them. PRR did this.
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Mike,
The Grand Canyon FPA4's are of Canadian National origin. I believe that they are not even technically ALCOs since they were made under license by the Canadian Equivalent (MLW in 1969 and now Bombardier). The difference is similar to the F series vs. the E series in EMD diesels. FA's were intended as freight locomotives, but like the FP7 and FP9 some railroads preferred them to be supplied with steam generators for dual service. The FA's all had 4 wheel trucks. The PA was designed as a fast passenger diesel and rarely saw any frieght service. It ran on A1A trucks in similar fashion to the E units. The only railroad I know of that tried them in freight service was the PRR, but it was largely unsuccessful and they ended up in commuter service on the NY&LB (like the passenger sharks, the K4s and eventually E7's and E8's dropped off mainline passenger operations. For an operation like the GCRY, the FA's make sense because the speeds are not high enough to require a true passenger locomotive. Since the GCRY runs all HEP equipped cars, you will always see a generator car directly behind the locomotives. This was true during the steam operations as well. Even the ex-Amtrak F40PH's use a generator car as the HEP sets have been removed allowing all 4000 hp to go to pulling the train. They have been reclassified as F40FH's. One F40PH can pull the equivalent of the ABA set of FA's, so during the week you will often see the F40 set at the canyon while the FA's tend to run on Weekends when the trains are just slightly longer. Sad to see steam idled on the GCRY, but I suspect that the locomotives will be kept in operational condition for use somewhere in the future. Jonathan Peiffer TCA 01-53047 Modeling the Arizona Subdivisions of the CNJ and PRR |
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Chessieman: Test an old man's memory, here. Didn't B&O have some FA-2s with steam generators in 'em (making them FPA-2, by the way)? If I remember right, that'd make at least a little dent in the above...  Best, Brian |
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Johnathan thanks for the detail. The FPA pictures are from our 2004 and 2006 trips to the canyon. I had posted some pictures of the F40FH arriving at the Canyon Thursday October 9th. We had just climb out of Bright Angel trail from our two night stay in the Canyon. I dropped my back pack and ran to the RR crossing as the engine arived. Great sight, and yes there was an electrical generator car.    We later stopped in Williams for a few sad pictures. They were removing steps from the front of 4960 on display near the Williams depot.  You hate to see any one with a cutting torch around a beautiful piece of history like this.  |
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