I remember when Legacy first came out some people reported a problem using the Z-Stuff Data Line Driver and Legacy, However I cannot remember what it was and if it was fixed.

Anyone there have any info?

Chris

I had a problem were I could not turn on my TPC's. The fix was to send the data line driver back to Z-Stuff and Dennis would replace a resistor. I had bought a new data line driver that supposedly was up-dated, so I could run trains. But that didn't happen, still had same problem. When I received my original back, it didn't work. I ordered a new serial cable from Lionel and took it apart and found that if I hook it up like it should be, and used Pin # 8 & #2 comming out of the data line driver to my Tmcc components everything works fine and has for the last year and a half.

Bill

I am afraid I Don't follow you on that process, Hook it up like it should be?

Chris,
I had a bit of trouble getting this to work; however, it turned out be my great wiring skills. Hook it up as per the instructions and then use the supplied "Y" cord that comes with Legacy. My cord is labeled Legacy base. Plug that end into your Legacy base and the Data driver into the end marked Serial Comm and that should do it. You have to program the switch on your Cab-2 controller.
If you can't get it to work, look for Jim Queenan on this forum, I think he goes by JimQ. He called me on the phone and walked me through mine until I got it to work. Super nice guy and very helpful. Good Luck. You'll love it when you get it working, it's cool running switches from a remote.

I had an issue with Legacy and the ZStuff Data Line Driver (DZ-2001). I have 5 TPC units being driven by the serial line. When I added the DZ-2001, all of the TPC units stopped receiving signals. The turnouts on the 2001 signal line worked ok, but anything else on the Legacy serial line stopped receiving commands.

I returned the 2001 to Dennis Zander at Z-Stuff to replace a resistor. Apparently the Legacy serial line isn't up to snuff compared to the TMCC1 serial line. Dennis replaced a 110ohm resistor with a 300ohm. This fixes most problems with the 2001 and Legacy serial ports. On my setup, however, it only allowed one TPC unit to receive commands. The rest still wouldn't work. Dennis said there was nothing more he could do. Further adjusting of the resistor would kill his data line on the DZ2001.

On a hunch, I purchased a serial line booster/repeater to see if that would help. Here is the booster I purchased:

http://www.bb-elec.com/product_family.asp?familyid=13

When put this booster between the TPC units and the DZ2001, things seem to work. So my setup looks like this:

Legacy base -> DZ2001 -> Powered Serial Booster -> 5 TPC units.

Again, all of this works fine without the booster when I use the TMCC1 base.

So, if Lionel is listening:

Fix the serial driver logic on the Legacy, because it doesn't work well with existing products in the market!


Cheers!

Steve

All I did was use pin # 2 & 8 comming out of data line driver to my TPC's (8) and everything works fine. If I remmeber correctly pin 2 & 9 were serial data and return. Mine worked fine until I added legacy. With trial, and error I found I could use pin 8&2 out of the data driver, I Didnt need a booster and I haven't had any problems. Also I use 18 gage wire to all switch machines and bus wire.

Bill

RS-232 is not designed for multidrop applications. A better solution would be to use a bus that is, like RS-422 or 485. Of course the exiting equipment would need an adaptor of some sort.

I think the problem with the Legacy controller is that it actually uses a standard RS-232 driver, which doesn't provide the current that the transistor circuit in the original Command Base did.

You could also try driving the TPCs themselves off the DZ-2001 data line. I think I might have done this with some success.

Has anyone tries simply connecting the TPCs to the data driven line from the DZ2001?

The DZ2001 has serial in, serial out and then the driven line out for the switch machines. Instead of taking the serial out to the TPCs why not drive them like all the other serial things from the line driver output?

Just a thought

quote:

Has anyone tries simply connecting the TPCs to the data driven line from the DZ2001?

I just looked at my setup it was so long ago. Here is the sequence:

Legacy Base- Serial Comm connected to Data Wire Driver DZ2001- Three wire Command Cable- Action Recorder- Accessory Switch Controller- Accessory Motor Controller-Block Power Controller-TPC 300 #1-TPC 300 #2.

Three wires from the DZ2001 to the first DZ2500 and the rest daisy chained to the first switch motor.

No problems at all.

quote:

Originally posted by BillP:
Has anyone tries simply connecting the TPCs to the data driven line from the DZ2001?

The DZ2001 has serial in, serial out and then the driven line out for the switch machines. Instead of taking the serial out to the TPCs why not drive them like all the other serial things from the line driver output?

Just a thought

I just hooked one TPC up to the DZ-2001 data wire (the white wire). I hooked that to the DAT line on the TPC, and the COM line on the TPC to the U or common for the whole setup. That worked ok.

However, when I daisy chain all 5 TPCs using the DZ-2001 data wire, none of them respond.

quote:

Originally posted by Boxcar Bill:
Steve

All I did was use pin # 2 & 8 comming out of data line driver to my TPC's (8) and everything works fine. If I remmeber correctly pin 2 & 9 were serial data and return. Mine worked fine until I added legacy. With trial, and error I found I could use pin 8&2 out of the data driver, I Didnt need a booster and I haven't had any problems. Also I use 18 gage wire to all switch machines and bus wire.

Bill

Bill, are you hooking #2 to DAT and #8 to COM on the TPCs?

Stevo

Yes, #2 data #8 com. Also I would not daisy chain your switch machine, the reason being is ease of trouble shooting.

Bill

It's been a while since I have thought about these issues... if I remember correctly there are two issues with Legacy -- Unfortunately, I have to use some techno-speak here so...

First, Lionel went to the RS232 standard signal level voltages in Legacy... I think these levels are that a voltage greater than 3 V represents a logic 0 while a voltage less than -3V represents a logic 1... The original TMCC command base used levels like TTL -- (0V for logic 0 and 5 V for logic 1) so some devices (TPCs, data line drivers, et al) may have some problems dealing with this... however I think that hooking all this stuff to the connector labeled "Serial" on the Legacy Y connector usually (but not always) works... I think the seriousness of the problem depends on the number of devices that the Serial line is trying to drive...

Second, the original problem with the Line Driver was on the DZ2001A version ... Z-stuff added an LED to give some visual indication of activity on the data line.. the Legacy port could not drive this LED and still have current left to drive the other devices... this was the reason for Dennis suggesting the resistor change: to reduce the current draw by the LED... When I originally hooked up my Legacy equipment I had (still do) the original DZ2001 which did not have the LED and therefore has some spare current drive capability... so I did not run into the problem right away (but see below)

I also purchased a powered RS232 extender but have not installed it yet... From what I read above it looks like this should work... I will also try the pin2/pin 8 technique and see what happens...

I also have 4 TPC units on the serial line... I have not had any problems controlling the TPCs as long as there is no additional units after them on the DAT/COM lines... If I hooked up anything else, e.g., the TMCC Gantry Crane, neither the crane nor the TPCs coould be controlled... my solution has been to keep the Gantry Crane on the TMCC Command base...

I will try these techniques and see how they work for me...

Chris, if you want to discuss further don't hesitate to send me an email at the address in my profile... same goes for anyone else in this topic... I have had email and talked to BillP, Yog-Sothoth and gregj410 on this topic...

I checked the zstuff web page and see that it only lists the DZ2001 now...

U picked up a Z2001A in York, I shipped it off to Dennis today for the resistor change. Right now I am only planning to run switches and not any TPC's. But I might ad TPC's later

quote:

Originally posted by Boxcar Bill:
Stevo

Yes, #2 data #8 com. Also I would not daisy chain your switch machine, the reason being is ease of trouble shooting.

Bill

Hey! Moving my COM from pin 5 to pin 8 worked! So with DAT on pin 2 and COM on pin 8 I can run all 5 TPCS and the DZ-2001 on the Legacy serial line. THanks for the key info!!!

Regarding switch machines, you mean wire a star type configuration where each switch is connected directly to the 2001? Ugh. But I understand why that helps with trouble shooting.

thanks again!

Regarding switch machines, you mean wire a star type configuration where each switch is connected directly to the 2001? Ugh. But I understand why that helps with trouble shooting.


Stevo

You should run three bus wires from the data line driver and each switch machine will tap off of the bus wires. The reason I do this, is when a switch machine goes bad it will prevent all machines from working. To trouble shoot, you dis-connect the ground wire from you first machine, if your machine now work you know the first machine is bad, if not dis-connect from mach. #2 and work your way down the line until you find the bad machine. In 18 months of having the 2500's, I've only replaced machine and it was my fault it broke.

Bill

If we peruse the rs232 9-pin specification, it states that pin 2 is "Received Data (RxD), pin 8 is Clear To Send (CTS) and pin 5, is Common Ground (G). So it makes sense that pins 2 and 5 be used.

Can someone explain how using CTS as the common ground works at all?

I have been wondering why using Pin 8 as signal ground seems to work too... but I am going to try it... maybe CTS is not connected to pin 8; my bet would be that Legacy only uses RX, TX and signal ground anyway...

quote:

Stevo

You should run three bus wires from the data line driver and each switch machine will tap off of the bus wires. The reason I do this, is when a switch machine goes bad it will prevent all machines from working. To trouble shoot, you dis-connect the ground wire from you first machine, if your machine now work you know the first machine is bad, if not dis-connect from mach. #2 and work your way down the line until you find the bad machine. In 18 months of having the 2500's, I've only replaced machine and it was my fault it broke.

Bill

Right, this is exactly how I have my switches wired.

Thanks,

Steve,
>
> After looking at the problem some more, I believe we could increase
> the 300 ohm to 470 ohm in the DZ-2001 and put less of a load on the signal to the TPCs.
>
> The suggestion to use pins 2 & 8 is an interesting one. I just checked
> and the signal is a 10V high serial output. If loaded with 1K ohm it
> drops in output and the DZ-2001 output drops as well. So, as long as
> the TPCs do not load the line with more than 1K of net resistance
> you'd probably be OK.