I run all command control with DCS and TMCC. My ps2 engines are excellent runners, very seldom do I have to give the engine a nudge to get contact. From what I understand the ps2 engine has software that keeps the engine powered even if the rollers are not recieving power momentarily. Now my TMCC engine s are another story all together. Most will run ok after moving a decent speed but if I want to crawl or moving from a stand still it is very troublesome and almost frustrating. I tested a new engine to me today. An older gp7 atlantic coast livery and trying to get this thing moving was so frustrating. I cleaned my track with denatured alcohol and that seamed to help some but not all together. I have 2 K-line engines that run pretty well with tmcc, one of them the scale mikado which I upgraded to cruise commander and another gp38 with kline cruise. Is it the cruise thats keeping the engine moving without stalling?

Is there a fix for this sort of operation or should I just abandon tmcc all together?

My guess would be that it has more to do with flywheels and pickups than software. All the software in the world won't do you any good if there's no power to the motors.

From what I understand this is where the battery comes in.

quote:

From what I understand this is where the battery comes in.

That is incorrect. The only purpose of a battery in a TMCC/Legacy engine is to keep sounds from dropping out in convention running when cycling the transformer. It also provides power for the sounds in TMCC mode for shutdown. For this reason most folks leave the batteries out when running TMCC as the power never cycles and most folks shutdown before killing power to the layout if they want to hear the engine shutdown.

Are you sure you are not experiencing poor signal? Doe the headlight flicker?

Im not reffering to tmcc, I am talking about protosound 2 engines that won't stop and go, When momentarily looses contact I believe the battery kicks in until the engine gains contact again.

I don't know if it's signal or what Marty, they do flicker sometimes but not abnormally. It looks to me like it is not getting a steady flow of power. Is there a way to determine if it's a signal issue?

When you have an issue, walk over to the engine and put your hand above it and see if the control gets any better. Usually a signal issue manifests itself by a flickering headlight. Also I find that TMCC likes at least 16v. My T1 is pretty picky.

Hope it's something you can take care of. Sorry about misunderstanding the battery comment.

Marty, I have done that before but as soon as the engine goes dark I need to give it a little nudge with my hand to get it going again.

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I need to give it a little nudge with my hand to get it going again.

The engine is obviously losing power? why though? dirty track? poor rail joiners ? dirty wheels or rollers ? Feeds to both outside rails might help (unless you have some type of signaling . You could start where the feeder attaches to the track and clean and check each rail joint (tighten up if possible) in either direction. Good luck. I don't think it's the engine.

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Originally posted by stevin:
Marty, I have done that before but as soon as the engine goes dark I need to give it a little nudge with my hand to get it going again.

Stevin,

Can you post a picture of the engine stalled and a blank picture of the trackwork it is on? We have found some TMCC engines are stalling because of locomotive grounding issues, others seem to be pick-up issues. (If we check them with a continuity meter they seem good but die on many switches while one roller is still on a powered rail.)

I will take pictures and post them a little later on

I would clean & lubricate your rollers. A small drop of oil on the pin on which the roller rotates should do it. I had an issue with my tmcc diesel and it was the roller. It was not conducting electricity well. The lubrication fixed it right up.

As to the MTH running on battery. I believe the PS2 battery is to keep the electronics going. The battery is not used to power the motor.

quote:

When momentarily looses contact I believe the battery kicks in until the engine gains contact again.

Stevin, this is incorrect. The battery in the Proto2 is just used to store the engine information after the engine power has been shut off.

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Usually a signal issue manifests itself by a flickering headlight.

I agree with Marty. All my instances of TMCC/Legacy engine stopping have been signal issues which in my experience has been indicated by the headlight flickering and resolved with the use of an earth ground wire.

My experience is that while cruise control (in both Kline and Lionel engines) is the component that keeps engines running smoothly at slow speed. Also cruise control engines are more dependant upon strong signals (a non cruise will run where a cruise engine would blink on my former layout). If nothing else works, I am sure that the addition of an ERR cruise control solution will correct your problematic engines.

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As to the MTH running on battery. I believe the PS2 battery is to keep the electronics going. The battery is not used to power the motor.

Yep the battery does keep the electronics going other wise a slightest power interruption the engine drops into neutral in conventional mode. Then you have to start it up again till the next interruption.

It doesn't keep it command mode very long though, maybe a second or 2 tops, just enough to keep it from dropping into conventional mode on switches dirty track etc...

could you give me a little more info on adding an earth ground

In most case you won't have an issue but the ground plane problems occur more near parallel tracks and track that go over/under. Adding a ground plane is fairly simple. On a parallel track run a wire, it can be jacketed, between the 2 tracks. You can scenic over it. One end is not connected, the other is attached to earth ground either a water pipe or electrical outlets ground lug.

The over/under condition can be remedied by add the same wire under the overhead track. Once again the one end is not connected the other to earth ground. Run it under the length of the trouble spots.

Also make sure the command base supply is plugged into a properly grounded 3 prong outlet. That also establishes a good earth ground for the signal. Sometimes folks use surge protection either in a power strip or other method that can interfere with a good earth ground so trying a direct plug into the outlet may help too.

You mentioned that the engine with the problem is and "older" GP7. It will have a starting "problem" if it is equipped with a Pull-Mor motor. Most geeps had only a single motor and limited pulling power. Plus, it needs a higher starting voltage to get moving. You might try setting the stall voltage to get it started quicker if it's Pull-Mor equipped.

It.s not that it has a problem starting, as soon as the engine moves it stalls, this engine also stalls on most switches. Most of my other tmcc engines have issues running consistenly as well. Because of these issue I find myself buying more mth and running my ps2 engines more.

Stevin,

Early make (and some present make) TMCC engines control the motor by simply varying the voltage to the motor. Eg if you increase the throttle more voltage is applied, decrease it less voltage. This happens regardless of how or even if the motor is moving. (It could be at a stall)


Many newer engines have an advanced control circuit called Cruise Control, EOB, Odyssey, or Speed Control. These are special circuits that monitors how quickly the motor is spinning and automatically adjust the voltage to the motor. So if the throttle setting calls for 5 RPM on the motor and the motor is only spinning at 3 RPM the circuit will boot the voltage until 5 RPM is achieved.

All PS/2 engines have had this from the get go. That is why the have smooth low speed starts without stalling. Not all TMCC engines have this.

I think what you are comparing is a non-cruise TMCC engine to a DCS engine and yes it will not run as well. But a cruise TMCC engine will work comparably.

PS The battery does not keep the motor going over dead spots. It will keep the sound going though.

PPS Stalling on switches is usually a function of the switch geometry and how far apart your engines pickup rollers are.

I was thing, I am using atlas O with the blackened centered rail. I know most say it should be removed when using dcs but I haven't had a problem yet with dcs. Could this be adding to the issues im having with tmcc?

I want to do an exeriment on a stretch of track and prepare the track before testing the loco. What should be done to my track to create an ideal running stretch?

Just a normal wipe with scotchbrite.

I do not try to remove the blacking from my GarGraves track.

DO NOT USE STEEL WOOL to clean tracks. A Scotch Brite is not made of steel, by the way. Engines, especially ones with magnetraction, will pick up the steel and short out or possibly catch something on fire from the glowing red filaments.

Concerning rollers, four rollers are better than two.

Some other things - if the GP7 has traction tires, then only one axle on each truck is picking up ground. If the wheels are dirty, you could be loosing power on the outer rails, and not the rollers. It happened to me on a Atlas GP60 - I had to clean the wheels.

I have also seen problems picking up ground (outer rails). I had an Atlas dummy, that was working like cr@p after I added a Mini-Commander to control its coil couplers. Turns out there was not a good connection to ground. I added wires to tie the truck grounds to the frame ground. It still was stuck with only one roller per truck.

Had a similar issue with my postwar F3's after I painted the frames flat black. I tied every ground I could find together, and added a second set of rollers. Because the powered has magnetraction, and does not have traction tires, it is the engine least likely to stall.

I removed the blackening from top of my K-Line track.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: illinoiscentral,

quote:

Originally posted by stevin:
It.s not that it has a problem starting, as soon as the engine moves it stalls, this engine also stalls on most switches. Most of my other tmcc engines have issues running consistenly as well. Because of these issue I find myself buying more mth and running my ps2 engines more.

Stevin,

Please correct this if it is wrong. Some think your engine loses the TMCC command signal. Our impression is that your engine goes dark, (loses track power) and when you wiggle it the lights come back on.

Have a friend whose K-Line EP-5 will run and then stop when it loses power over some switches. Odly will run thru a straight switch in one direction but stall running straight in the other direction. And it is not the pick-ups because due to its length, one truck is always on straight track. We are leaning towards those STUPID RUBBER TIRES causing a grounding issue. Especially since K-Line put a rubber tired wheel on each flanged axle rather than both rubber tires on the same axle.

You will have erratic slow speed operation due to track voltage variations caused by track connections, dirt on track, extra friction on curves, switches, & grades (regardless of whether you are using conventional, TMCC or legacy.) You need cruise or speed control if you expect smooth low speed operation!! When you go over a switch you will get a voltage drop even if one roller is still getting contact. At higher speeds you will not notice this.

Stevin, I was having the exact same problem as you described when your post came up. I too am using Atlas track with the blackened center rail. The problem was with my Lionmaster Northwestern 2-6-6-4. Took my bench grinder with the steel bristle wheel and cleaned the rollers on the engine as well as the tender. Placed a drop of oil on the side of the roller. What a difference. That sucker ran like it just came out of the box. I would also look at the rails and make sure they are clean. Some denatured alcohol will do the the trick.

Jeff in LA

Once again, upon reading one of my old posts, I was not clear enough.

What I wanted to say was, in essence "You can have a bad connection between the truck and the frame." and "Best way I have found is to add a flexible wire between both trucks, frame, and ground of electronics."

Even on the postwar F3, after repainting, I reduced flicker by soldering a wire to the outside of the light bulb socket and running that back to the wire nut for all the grounds.

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but TMCC operates at frequencies between CB and old cordless phones about 38 Mhz. I think. These frequencies are very prone to inter-modulation from outside sources. The reason Lionel chose these is probably they were cheap and available (FCC controls all). So right there this is a disadvantage. DCS uses 900 Mhz. But be careful when using 900 Mhz.cordless phones. They are out dated and not sold any more. New ones are 2.4 Ghz and 5.6 Ghz. So no problem with those. As far as weak signals running a ground wire (or radial as they are commonly called) parallel to the track and back to a water pipe may not work to well. First from an antenna point of view the ground plane starts where the feed line connects to the antenna. Feed line splits. One wire goes to the antenna and the other goes to the ground plain. But Lionel does not make a provision for this. You have just one wire from the Power Master to the track which is the antenna. Using a water pipe first has to be copper. Second be sure it's NOT the hot water. Many water heaters have plastic pipes inside. The cold water pipe is the one that usually gets grounded. You can add a jumper between the inlet cold water pipe and the hot water pipe just above heater itself. This is also for lightning protection. Anyway such a connection is really running the long way around your house wiring. Layout to water pipe, outside to ground rod, back inside along house ground wire. But only if your Track Power Connector and your transformer have a 3 pin grounded AC plug. If your using a power master forget it. Or if your using DCS with an old ZW no way. I think Lionel was hoping that your track system would be equivalent to a 1/2 wave antenna that does not require a ground plane. Viggie

stevin,
You will have to confirm if you are losing track power, signal loss, or a bad receiver board. Since more that one locomotive is experiencing this issue than you can rule out the board. I would confirm this. Next are all the locomotives having issues at the same point of the track? If so clean this area, clean and oil the rollers. I found that roller contact was a big issues on certain areas of the railroad. check this location for a voltage reading, is there a drop? Does the light on the engine go out our systematically blink. if it blinks you could be losing a signal.
Signal loss could be as simple as the batteries in your cab-1 getting low.
check to see you are getting a flashing red light as you move the throttle.
next install a temp. ground plane, does this impove things?
Next touch the aerial / handrails of the steam locomotive. what happens? If the locomotive stops, the aerial could be grounding out on the steachions.
Good luck on root causing but stick with it, you will find the issue.

The problem is that the older GP7 has a pullmor motor not a can motor. The pullmor motor needs a lot more power (to get it up and running), the can motor needs less to get it up and running. That is why Lionel has to back off on the new old remakes of their engines that say they will have Legacy system in them. They make the print out with this statement on it and forget that the engine they are putting into this reproduction is based on the old Pullmor Motor in them. The battery as MartyE state is used only in the non command mode for the dirty track that may make the engine startup or shutdown because the mother board has no electric to keep it hot with out the battery installed. I run in command and I always have 18 volts on the track and the mother board is always hot. MTH has a battery in his system and the save thing happens to his mother board it is always hot also.