quote:

Originally posted by MartyE:
... Of course to any one who misses the LUG Meeting we will post a full summary the following Monday on the forum.

So, are folks who attend the meeting referred to as lug nuts?

Just kidding! I really appreciate the hard work of the folks who put these meetings together and I look forward to reading the summary when it gets posted on the forum.

Lug Nuts...yeah I guess that fits pretty well.

Reply to Jon, Lionel CTO.

Thanks for providing us the feedback. It's very reassuring to know that you and your team are working on a fix to the problem.

I have a Legacy System on my 32 X 17 home layout and we have a Legacy System on our large modular club layout. We are experiencing the Radio Link Warning Light problem up close to both Legacy Bases with five different CAB-2's with fully charged batteries. So, Jon it is NOT poorly charged batteries.

We have changed frequencies multiple times at shows and at my home layout with no improvements. So Jon, changing frequencies did NOT help.

At my layout which is in a separate dedicated building I also shut off all other wireless devices. So, Jon it is NOT interference from other wireless devices.

The Radio Link Warning Light behaves the same in all cases.

Jon, I believe you when you say you are committed to the hobby. So I found your statements in your second paragraph to be very disappointing. Like maybe we out here wouldn't think about fully charging or replacing our batteries or changing channels before we send our stuff to Lionel Repair.

And the next statement you made is confusing and need clarification. You state that "there are no hardware or software changes on the replacements from Consumer Services." Maybe you meant "no hardware upgrades or software/firmware changes/upgrades". Because I just gotta believe that Mike Reagan's team is changing chips and mother boards and other associated items. Jon, please clarify.

How about the following? Maybe you have:

Firmware Issues resulting in Corrupt Packets? Faulty Error Detection and Correction? Multi-path Distortion? Weak transmitter power or poor transceive sensitivity in the Legacy Bases or CAB-2s (even withing what the the Regulatory Agencies allow)? Poor Discrimination in transmitter and receiver hardware (can't filter out unwanted signals)? Faulty hardware components in the Base and CAB-2's from underspecking them? Use of faulty components from your component vendors. Faulty manufacturing and poor Quality Control and Final Testing resulting in marginal products?

Jon, In the same two environments our two TMCC1 Command Bases along with our six or more CAB-1 Controllers work to perfection. At least double the range. Like easily 60 feet and usually more. And guess what? Extending the antenna on the CAB-1 makes a HUGE difference in the range. No external antenna on the CAB-2. Hmmmm.

Jon, I wish you and your team the best in finding a fix or fixes.

And I hope Lionel Senior Management will step up to this issue. It is NOT going to go away. It is way too obvious a problem on larger layouts and it is going to haunt Lionel until it's fixed.

Thanks,
Bill

The improvement in range that some users are reporting after being sent in for repair may be due to the difference in functional testing. Units assembled in a manufacturing environment probably get very little functional testing. Units sent in for a range problem probably are thoroughly tested to verify the repair.

Earl

OK Bill,

I'll bite, just one time...

[Jon, I believe you when you say you are committed to the hobby. So I found your statements in your second paragraph to be very disappointing. Like maybe we out here wouldn't think about fully charging or replacing our batteries or changing channels before we send our stuff to Lionel Repair.]

>> What I meant from this statement is that the hardware is all the same design, component tolerances excepted. Therefore folks speculating that units sent in for repair are somehow "different" when returned is untrue. There must be more to this, perhaps items I mentioned, or as you mentioned, some component concern.


[Because I just gotta believe that Mike Reagan's team is changing chips and mother boards and other associated items. Jon, please clarify.]

>> We routinely replace returns with new stock as procedure. Please note: *any* repairs to Legacy bases or cab2 units are done in *my* Lionel West coast facility. Since Mike and his department report directly to me in the org chart, I know what his directives are. I guarantee at this point in time Mike and his team do not change chips or circuit boards in Legacy base or cab2 units.


[Jon, In the same two environments our two TMCC1 Command Bases along with our six or more CAB-1 Controllers work to perfection. At least double the range. Like easily 60 feet and usually more. And guess what? Extending the antenna on the CAB-1 makes a HUGE difference in the range. No external antenna on the CAB-2. Hmmmm.]

>> The range of the system is not as simple as placing an antenna on the Cab2. There is much more is involved in an RF design, as you thoughtfully pointed out. We have run experiments on antennas - specifically the benefit of adding an antenna on the cab-2, and extension antenna on the base. The base extension antenna is your best bet, and as indicated on my earlier post we are trying to change the error correction methods on the RF packets to add additional margin.


I do understand the frustration users feel, I use a Legacy system on my home layout. I hate the red light, and even more so - since I can do something about it! Speculation, however, is not going to help. I tried to clear some of this speculation up with my post. It was not meant in any way to question the integrity of any person who experiences problems. Please do not twist my posted information into such.

I hesitated to post anything, as it can come under fire. If you read my reply, several points are worth noting, mainly we are not ignoring this. Maybe that is the best answer I will give in the future. "we are not ignoring this".

As CTO [Chief Train Operator ], and part of senior management, I will improve the Legacy system operation.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: SantaFeFan,

Jon

Once again thanks for the response.

Bill while I sympathize with yours and other issues I think Jon has done a pretty good job keeping us up on what's happening and offering some simple suggestion to try to get a better response from Legacy. Sometimes all it takes to have him jump in here is just a simple inquiry like $oo did.

While we would all like the details of what's going on, I think most of us realize that Lionel, MTH, or any other manufacturer/importer are not going to report on technical details on an open forum like this. I for one am happy that Jon offers the information he does.

Jon has been very open and candid with the Legacy User's Group and offer any information that he can. Lionel has a good group of folks and I suspect they want to kick this issue in the butt.

Also Bill I find your contributions to the Legacy discussion pretty interesting. Please keep information coming and posted. We know Jon appreciates the feedback good or bad.

So is the OS update anticipated for this fall off?

Jon


thank you for responding hope nothing I said insulted you wasn't my intention if I did. $oo

Jon,

Thanks for your reply. And thanks for the kind words. You have clearly demonstrated to use out here under the Fig trees that you are working on the issue and as CTO of Lionel, therfore, Lionel is standing behind it's products in this case Legacy.

For what it's worth this means a lot to me and I'll bet it also does for others.

I have one additional thought for you on this. You've probably already considered this but just in case it might help, here goes. My Legacy Command Base also has a charging problem in that the charging cycle never completes and therefore charging never shuts off.

(My Legacy Expansion Base works fine and charges the batteries in both of my home CAB-2's with the end state being two green charging lights as expected which eliminates the CAB-2's or batteries as a source of the problem)

Anyway, the end result in the Legacy Command Base is simulataneously flashing red charging lights and a VERY HOT CAB-2 on the back adjacent to the batteries meaning of course that the batteries are even hotter.

Could it be possible that this heat is causing components in the CAB-2 to deteriorate over time resulting in the degredation of the CAB-2 transceiver function? Looking back over the last year and the initial performance of my Legacy system I seem to recall that the wireless link between the CAB-2 and the Legacy Base initially worked much better. Can't swear to it. Nothing scientific here because I neglected to record the results of my initial range testing and who knows what else has changed in my environment.

Anyway, I sent my Legacy Base in to "for sure" get the charging function repaired and also mentioned the range function. Will post the results when I get it back and test both functions -- to try and help you all.

I really enjoy the Legacy system and so took the lead in getting our modular club to adopt it. Convinced them that we should be an early adopter and be on the leading edge to reflect positively on the club as a progressive outfit -- and to have more fun running trains!!

Have had lots of interested persons drop by our layout at shows and ask about it and have always given it a very positive recommendation. At the World's Greatest Hobby Show in San Antonio attended by around 25,000 we had a large number of questions about Legacy.

Our club has a show this coming weekend and if people ask I'll still give the Legacy functionality a glowing recommendation. But, to be ethical about it, I will be forced to mention that that Legacy works great on smaller layouts but that Lionel -- from the Chief Technical Officer on down -- is working diligently on improving the wireless link between the Base and the CAB-2.

Fair enuff?

Regards,
Bill Lohman

quote:

Could it be possible that this heat is causing components in the CAB-2 to deteriorate over time resulting in the degredation of the CAB-2 transceiver function? Looking back over the last year and the initial performance of my Legacy system I seem to recall that the wireless link between the CAB-2 and the Legacy Base initially worked much better. Can't swear to it. Nothing scientific here because I neglected to record the results of my initial range testing and who knows what else has changed in my environment.

An interesting thought.

Hi MartyE,

For what it's worth I totally agree with your earlier post about Lionel or MTH or whoever not posting technical details. I'd prefer that Jon and his team concentrate on the issue rather than spend a lot of time on forums.

However, Jon's second reply was very useful for me. It convinced me that Lionel is really working the issue. This has had the effect of allowing me to remain very positive on Legacy within my modular club where some members are considering going back to TMCC1/CAB-1's.

And I can still advocate Legacy to the general public at shows knowing the Jon and his team are on the issue.

I hope Jon's candid reply will have the same effect on others who read the forum.

I'm a big fan of Legacy. Now that my Legacy Base has been shipped back to Lionel I'm back to using my CAB-1's for a while. It's still fun running trains with the CAB-1's but I've really been spoiled by Legacy and can't wait to get it back.

Regards,
Bill

For what its worth, well over a year ago I added a special High Gain, 11 dbi antenna, by SMC (part No. 751 7694), to my Legacy base. Although I occasionaly get "that red light" on the Cab-2, we have not noticed any adverse affects during our "Run Beer, Drink Trains" 5 to 6 hour operating sessions. Also, one of the two Cab-2 hand held units sits in it's charging base for 2 to 3 hours at a time, if nobody is using THAT one, with no ill affects. Both of my Cab-2 hand helds still have the original rechargable batteries received from Lionel, and my Legacy system is V1.2.

quote:

Originally posted by Austin Bill:
For what it's worth I totally agree with your earlier post about Lionel or MTH or whoever not posting technical details. I'd prefer that Jon and his team concentrate on the issue rather than spend a lot of time on forums.

Bill,

I totally disagree. This forum is a wealth of information feedback on their products. Real men, such as Jon, step up to the plate and interact with their customers. It is also good for customer relations to keep the customer informed. In the absence of solid information, rumors and false expectations will flourish.

Earl

Hi Earl,

Yep,I agree this forum is extremely valuable or I wouldn't have taken the time and effort to write these lengthy messages. What I MEANT to say and didn't say very well is that I personally don't expect for Jon to keep us posted on the the blow by blow details of his progress. But, I would like to see periodic updates for the reasons you mention and of course, a solution.

Thanks, Earl.
Bill

I have soldered a 2 foot piece of wire on the middle terminal that connects to the middle wire on the base antenna which has doubled or tripled the range and it even transmits through walls. The wire is then coiled up and hid. Before making this mode I had many issues you all have had.
This has worked for me.
thanks
sandy

quote:

Originally posted by EIS:

quote:

Originally posted by Austin Bill:
For what it's worth I totally agree with your earlier post about Lionel or MTH or whoever not posting technical details. I'd prefer that Jon and his team concentrate on the issue rather than spend a lot of time on forums.

Bill,

I totally disagree. This forum is a wealth of information feedback on their products. Real men, such as Jon, step up to the plate and interact with their customers. It is also good for customer relations to keep the customer informed. In the absence of solid information, rumors and false expectations will flourish.

Earl

quote:

Originally posted by Austin Bill:
Hi Earl,

Yep,I agree this forum is extremely valuable or I wouldn't have taken the time and effort to write these lengthy messages. What I MEANT to say and didn't say very well is that I personally don't expect for Jon to keep us posted on the the blow by blow details of his progress. But, I would like to see periodic updates for the reasons you mention and of course, a solution.

Thanks, Earl.
Bill

You know folks have often stated that they learn a lot from this forum. I assume they are referring to learning about trains. Yesterday, I learned a lot about how to post on this forum from Bill's post above. His post is a class act for civility in posts on the forum. Thanks, Bill, for a lesson well-learned.

Earl

Earl

I agree 100%. Bill states his case and respond very classy. It's good to have him here!

Thanks for the kind words Earl and MartyE. I hope Lionel feels the same way and will continue to watch our inputs on this forum topic. As I will be reporting the results of Legacy testing on our club layout as follows.

We will be setting up our modular club layout at a show in San Antonio this weekend,Oct 3 and 4. It will be 56 X 24 feet. We use TMCC1 and Legacy and will be running both types of engines as well as conventional engines via TPC-300/3000's. This is a separate second Legacy Command Set and Legacy Expansion Set owned by our club. My home set is in for repair. We'll have 3 CAB-2's and several CAB-1's in use. We have an external high tech battery charger to ensure batteries are topped off if needed. We use a Hawking signal booster on a mast a couple of feet above track level.

The show is in a medium sized hall. Will have several other layouts using a variety of wireless command systems. Not sure which at this point. Will note which. Will be lots of cameras and cell phones around. Should be a great place to do pretty close to a worst-case test on Legacy.

Will run Legacy range tests with the OEM antenna and the high gain antenna. Will change frequencies a couple of times. Will observe the Radio Link Warning Light and other CAB-2 indicators. Will observe the various engines' performance. Will test while using multiple CAB-2's and CAB-1 at the same time.

Will also see whether or not both Legacy Bases go through the complete charging cycle resulting in Green Charging Lights. (My home layout Legacy system is off to Lionel to repair the malfunctioning Legacy Command Base Charging System).

Will do my best to accurately test and accurately report the findings in hopes that this may be of some assistance to Lionel and to us all.

Stay tuned.

Bill

Bill, this is great information. Anxiously awaiting all the results. Have a great weekend at the show.

Jeff in LA

Finally got thru with Lionel this morning. They are running 21 days on repairs. They received my Legacy unit on 9/11. Hopefully I will have in the next 2 weeks. Will keep all advised when I get and how it performs.

Jeff in LA

I received my Legacy Unit back from Lionel today. Hooked it up and wow! I forgot all the fun that I used to have with my FEF. My headlight on the FEF would not stay lit with the TMCC Cab 1. Now all the functions work like they are supposed to. What's more the range is significantly improved. I do not know if they replaced the unit or repaired. I am just happy that I have it back. Thanks Lionel.

Jeff in LA

Jeff

That's great news! Enjoy yer RR! Hope to be in LA soon.

Marty, look forward to seeing you. Give me a yell when you are here. Have a great time at York.

Jeff in LA

Boy i CANT WAIT untill these issues are finally fixed. Ive been waiting to buy this system for 2 years!!! I only run have my trains set up around the holidays so i dont feel like spending the entire time trouble shooting. Id rather be flawlessly enjoying my trains so its still tmcc for me. I really hope there is a final fix for the issue soon so i can buy legacy!

A few weeks back I reported that I had sent my CAB 2 and base back to Lionel. I have two -- one was working the other was displaying the "base not found" message. They determined the problem was a defective CAB 2 which they replaced. Talk about great customer service!

Mike