I am waiting for the 'S' gauge BB later this year to be delivered, but I have a question regarding operating it on AC 50Hz without a Legacy/TMCC controller here in England.

A Lionel colleague that has a Legacy engine and manual indicates that on page 19 it quotes:-

"Caution! Power your lococomotive with a alternating-current (AC) transformer only. Powering your locomotive with a direct-current (DC) transformer, or in excess of 19 Volts AC, may result in damage to sensitive electronic components. 60Hz AC is required. Do not power with 50Hz AC" "Caution!
Power your lococomotive with a alternating-current (AC) transformer only.
Powering your locomotive with a direct-current (DC) transformer, or in excess of 19 Volts AC,
may result in damage to sensitive electronic components. 60Hz AC is required.
Do not power with 50Hz AC"

I would like to know what the consequences of running Legacy on 50Hz direct in conventional mode will impact on the boards/software.

Regards,

Neil T

See the post below about an update on a Legacy Big Boy

I looked at the post by Albrecht (shown below)

What I don't understand is that in Legacy/TMCC mode I will still be applying 50Hz to the track at X Volts, so what is the difference in running it at a regulated voltage with the 50Hz? Am I missing something fundamental here?

Is it only the smoke unit that is at risk, or as Albrecht says, it only is an issue with engines prior to some date in 2008?

As the new 'S' BB is new, then am I correct in that the smoke unit will not be a problem?

The only restriction is for early Legacy engines up to a certain manufacturing date in 2008 that you must avoid to use the smoke device in 50Hz in command mode ,too.Otherwise the smoke device will be damaged. If you want to apply smoke in those engines you must replace the installed voltage regulator for the smoke device with a 50Hz applicable voltage regulator. Unfortunately I don't have the date from which the new 50Hz applicable voltage regulator is installed.

Regards,

Neil T

I will send an email to Albrecht and ask him to check this post.

Neil T, Winrose46

I refer to: Unfortunately I don't have the date from which the new 50Hz applicable voltage regulator is installed.

To be more precise, I don't know from which engine or engine type they have installed this new voltage regulator at a date.

So I would be cautious to operate with the smoke until the status of the installation is known.

Regards

Albrecht

In talking to Albrecht this morning, he was on the train going home for the weekend, he indicated that Jon had responded in a thread that has since been deleted (too old). My understanding is that he has accumulated some spare parts to effect the change as well and is awaiting communication from Mike Reagan.

I have on the way home a Legacy system and a 6-28565 Legacy GP7 Rock Island.
Will a be able to run the smoke unit on 50hz ?
What is the best and fastest way to get an answer from Lionel ?

Berra, The fastest way to get a answer on 50Hz issues is to contact Jon Z at Lionel. He is Lionel's Chief Technical Officer.
He posts on this board as Santafefan. If I were you I would send him a email via his profile on the board.
I know Jon's been working hard on resolving a lot of 50Hz issues with Lionel equipment.

Jon told me that Legacy is fully 50Hz compliant.
2009 model CW-80 transformers have I understand been made 50Hz compliant, though I have yet to here of one being seen in the "wild" so to speak. Maybe if Jon sees this post he could tell us if there are any new markings on new model CW-80's to tell if it's a 50Hz compliant version?

Will soon find out at Christmas as the Lionel Collectors Club UK start getting phone calls and emails from all those with Polar Express sets with CW-80's that don't operate correctly

I think Neil's concern is that he cannot run the AF Big Boy in conventional mode on 50Hz. If it shares the same electronics as the
Lionel Lionmaster Big Boy who's manual he is qouting.
If this is the case he will need to buy a Legacy/TMCC set to run it on 50Hz.

I hope to pick up a new updated Legacy set while I am over in the States at the end of the month.

Regards
Nick H

Thanks Nick,

I will drop him an email. In the meantime I just remembered that did get a
12 VDC to 115 60 hz pure sinewave inverter last year. I never got around to getting the 12V source and using it as I have only used MTH engines until I now.
So I ordered a 12V Source yesterday to be in the safe side.
I checked the current used and the 300W of the inverter be enough for a long time.


Looking forward to the Legacy set and legacy diesel, it seems to be loaded with fun stuff and thats what its all about.

Berra,
The people I know that have Legacy here in the UK run on 60Hz using the pure sine inverter set up.
Knowbody want's to be the first to put $0000's of equipment at risk.
I understand Albrecht runs on 50hz in Germany with no problems. However from my personal experience I would be quiet cautious.

I think I'll stick to running on 60Hz as I have other older TMCC locos and TrainSounds equiped stuff that malfuntions on 50Hz.

I have the Legacy Lionmaster Big Boy and it's great! Looking forward to getting
a Legacy Set to try the whistle slider thingy.

Regards

Nick

Just a quick note that 60Hz is up and running
Still waiting for the Legacy set and Legacy loco though.
But DCS works fine

So today I finally got my Legacy GP7 and Legacy set.
And it was up to expectations with one exception, the 60 hz inverter makes the headlights on the GP7 flicker, I made a fast test with 50Hz from the mains and the headlights did not flicker.
Its only the Headlights, marker lights and cab light on the legacy engine that flickers.
The numberboard lights do not flicker.

No flicker whatsoever on MTH engines.

But playing with the horn was nice

Hello if you contact Tom Smith at Fern Creek Electronics in Orlando Florida he has the 50hz problem solved , no flicker of headlights , he has several already in Europe working , great guy , former aerospace electrical engineer his phone number is 407 859 1422 he also has many other TMCC related items including the ability to run TMCC off of Batteries , I have seen it demoed at 2 train shows , this is for real.

Bernie

Hi all,

to make a kind of status report about Legacy operation in 50Hz on my layout.


We operate now Legacy since more than one year with two Legacy remotes. In addition we use 2 cab1 handhelds , TMCC base connected to the Legacy base.

In operation: 2 Legacy steamers, 9 Legacy diesels without any problem( no
lurching, no sound problems), for the moment smoke switched off,
as the AC regulator for the smoke in 50Hz operation has to be
changed( a new one compatible for 50Hz is available at
Lionel Customer service)
Some Lionel TMCC engines from on 2004 without any problem
(receiver version 13),
older LionelTMCC and converted engines might have sometimes
a signal receiving problem in the starting up process, can be
remedied by pressing AUX1 and '0'
2 cranes with boom sound cars
2 station sound cars,
2 trainsound cars

Trainsound in TMCC: You can exchange the chips in the receivers, to make the
trainsound compatible for 50Hz in TMCC(and Legacy) operation
(chips available at Lionel Customer service)
In one case I applied a minicommander ENG to trigger the
trainsound in TMCC(available in ERR, you must indicate 50Hz).

Crane and soundcar: The Southern crane that I bought this year had already 50Hz
compatibilty and works without problems; older crane( I don't
know production dates) and sound cars have to be converted by
exchange of the receiver chip(same as in trainsound cars and
available at Lionel).

Waht we appreciate with Legacy operation apart from the sound effects is the operational behavior of all Legacy engines(slow motion, etc. and especially the possibility to build more lash ups .

So start with Legacy and enjoy it.

Regards

Albrecht

Hi Albrecht,
Good news.
Am I correct in saying that Lionel have created a 50Hz compatible TrainSounds circuit board?(rather than RailSounds)

It would be great to have a official update from Jon on the status of 50Hz updates to Lionel equipment.
And contact details, part numbers etc.
I can then post this on the Lionel Collectors Club UK forum and we can get the information in the next club magazine.
It would be good to get this information out there before Christmas as a lot of Lionel starter sets have TrainSounds.

Regards

Nick

P.S.
Hi Berra,
What transformer are you using with your inverter? I use a Post war 275 ZW and have no light flicker problems
when running on inverter power. One of my inverters causes light flicker when running a CW-80. The other inverter runs the CW-80 with no flicker. Strange.

Regards
Nick

Nick,

quote:

Am I correct in saying that Lionel have created a 50Hz compatible TrainSounds circuit board?(rather than RailSounds)

Concerning this question, from my point of view, I can't answer that correctly. I would say cautiously 'no', as I have made my conversions on my own risk some times ago, when I had the minicommander ENG /the chip available to convert the crane ava. What I saw , was that the receiver board for the crane is the same as for trainsound applicable for TMCC and so I tried it. Concerning the minicommander application the idea behind it was that a serial data wire connects the receiver board wird the sound board comparable to the connection of a minicommander to a railsound board or sound commander.The transmitted signal must have been the same and so it was(good luck).

There are some conventional trainsound devices around, there I didn't work with that, so my reflections are only concerning TMCC application as already mentioned.

Maybe Jon will contribute some thing about recent development concerning 50Hz.

Regards

Albrecht

Thanks Albrecht,
Hope Jon does contribute some info.
It would be good to know the status
of the following although they are not TMCC/Legacy items.

1)Status of 50Hz compatible CW-80 transformer

2)50Hz compatible Conventional Trainsounds circuit board

Regards

Nick

quote:

Hi Berra,
What transformer are you using with your inverter? I use a Post war 275 ZW and have no light flicker problems
when running on inverter power. One of my inverters causes light flicker when running a CW-80. The other inverter runs the CW-80 with no flicker. Strange.

Regards
Nick

I use a MTH Brick and run it trough the MTH TIU. But I also tried the brick directly to the track and the flicker was still present. I have not checked
voltage level or the shape of the sine wave.

I used to work at Skil Corporation, which became a joint venture between Emerson and Bosch, and then completely owned by Bosch (with a name change to Robert Bosch Power Tool Company). Soon after taking over, the German owners said no more SAE (English), everything will be done in metric, and that's it. The door is over there if you don't like it.

It would seem to me, with advent of Legacy, that someone would put their foot down and say, "We have an opportunity, lets not screw it up, Legacy shall work with 50 or 60 Hertz or DC, just like DCS."

Just made som tests,
Without the Legacy Geep the waveform is a perfect sinewave, with the Geep on the track there is a noticeable disortion of the curve. Is this due to the inverter or the Geep ? Interesting question ?
I will test with only the GEEP and no other load later this evening
But now it's dinner time in this part of the world.

quote:

It would seem to me, with advent of Legacy, that someone would put their foot down and say, "We have an opportunity, lets not screw it up, Legacy shall work with 50 or 60 Hertz or DC, just like DCS."

Right you are, and I think it was the intention but there where some glitches in the implementation. In August I got this message from Joe at ERR.

====
Lionel's Legacy system is designed to work with 50 or 60Hz. Our
products are also designed to work with 50Hz as well. As a side note,
all of Lionel's Legacy engines and Vision engines are designed to work
on 50 or 60Hz.

====

But as it seems this is not 100% true or is it ? And it's not tempting to experiment as if I have to send something to back to the US for repair shipping will cost approx 100 US$ each way.

I did never get the 60 Hz set up to work properly. The flickering headlights was very anoying.I switched off the smokeunit and now run on 50 Hz. Lionel will send me a new 50Hz compatible smoke unit for replacement.

I just made a call to Tech Services regarding the 'S' gauge BB and Tony there confirmed for me that this engine will run and smoke on 50 Hz.

He said that it was the early Legacy engines that had a problem as the smoke regulator was not compatible with 50Hz and would overheat and fail. He didn't know when the changeover was to the latest version regulator being used.

I guess if you have a Legacy engine that fails to smoke because of the regulator problem on 50Hz, then Lionel will send out a new upgraded replacement.

Regards,

Neil

Got the 50Hz Compatible voltage regulator yesterday. Changed it this evening.
And now we are smoking
I have to compliment Lionel on their servicelevel.