quote:

Originally posted by ny:
Hi
More features are on the way. You've heard them mentioned and even seen them in some advertisements. We are focusing on them now with our great team at the new Lionel.
ny

Neil, are there any plans to resurrect TimeLine command and incorporate it into the Legacy package? Will the + - data stream of the former IC Controls hardware ever be utilized?
I understand "TRain" interaction and play value will increase with the TrainLink function, but are there plans to incorporate layout operation, other than using "ACC" and "SW"?
I guess the ultimate question (and top prize) is "Can future Legacy features stop a train at a red block signal and then automatically resume speed?".

quote:

"Can future Legacy features stop a train at a red block signal and then automatically resume speed?"

This is possible, but not probable in the next few releases. It will require some additional products, but no engine modifications for backwards compatibility.

I am sure it can be done and Legacy is designed to support that operation. I personally am hoping for this to be done in the future because it would be the absolute coolest for Legacy engines. I don't see it for TMCC though.

ny

So somewhere in the future, it might be possible to eliminate the bulk of under the layout wiring most use?

I think you would have to have the electronics built into the track to be possible, but if this is anything that the future brings,
This is way cool!!!

okay food for thought tas had a computer software developed and started to sell then stopped. now Mike Reagan is with lionel and legacy shows an accessory for handhelds to be on either side of a monitor screen hmmmm possibly a lionel version of tas computer software to run trains with triggers to stop a train at a signal and start when its clear green ahead or crossing signals are activated and turned off after train has cleared and is down track just like the class 1 roads. Let The Legacy Enter Your Endless Possibilities. sweet dreams of things to come. $oo

Why not make your own TMCC automated block control system?




http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve/forums?a=albumtopic&TOPI...21078474&f=453102703

Yog-Sothoth,

Now THAT'S pretty darn cool! Thanks for sharing!

quote:

Originally posted by Yog-Sothoth:
Why not make your own TMCC automated block control system?

Yog, can you describe what we are looking at? Maybe break down the basics or details. WOW! I got a million questions.. don't know where to start....

I guess a picture is not really worth 1000 words....

This is a system I have been tinkering with for a couple of years. It started as a system based on a Basic Stamp microcontroller controlling two predetermined trains on a simple carpet loop, and has evolved to a system capable of identifying and controlling (in theory, anyway) hundreds of trains on an arbitrary layout structure.

Hardware:

The first step is to generate a clean logic signal from the noisy AC signal voltage generated by a track sensor such as an isolated rail or a DZ infrared sensor. I built custom boards for this. Each of the two boards at the top has 16 inputs for track sensors. Signals are processed by 16 of the following circuits:



The AC track voltage switches an AC optocoupler on or off, generating a 0-5V DC signal. Because the signal from an isolated rail is very noisy, the capacitor/resistor circuit "debounces" the signal to produce a smoothly varying DC signal. A Schmitt trigger then yields a clean on/off 5V logic signal.

Not shown on the above picture, the 16 signals are then bundled together by a shift register so the microcontroller can read the 16 inputs with a single synchronous serial input. The optocouplers, Schmitt triggers, and shift registers are the ICs you see on the boards.


The 'brain' of the system is an industrial microcontroller called a Cubloc, sort of like a Basic Stamp on steroids. That is on the lower board. In addition to reading the track sensors, the microcontroller has an RS-232 port that is connected to the TMCC Command Base and to TMCC peripherals like a TPC-300 and a DZ-2001 data wire to control DZ-2500 switches. Because I also wanted to read the signals generated by DZ-2500 switches on the data wire, I had to connect the data wire to the serial input via on optocoupler, because the data wire uses track common as a ground and connecting that to the ground used for the serial ports would short out the TMCC signal.

I also wanted to connect an RFID reader to be able to identify trains on the layout. The RFID reader is about the size of a matchbook and is concealed in a trackside building. Since the RFID reader communicates via a serial port and all the serial ports were in use to communicate with the TMCC equipment, I needed to add a serial port to the microcontroller with a UART and associated clock circuitry.

I will describe the system operation in the next post.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Yog-Sothoth,

Software and Operation:

The Cubloc microontroller reads track sensors, keeps track internally of the state of the layout and trains, and issues TMCC commands to engines and switches. The microcontroller has about 80k of program memory plus 2k of RAM, and 49 I/O lines. It costs around $40 and is programmed in BASIC.

The layout is represented in the microcontroller as a series of blocks, generally between switches. Each track block has a physical sensor at both ends. The layout configuration is stored in the EEPROM of the microcontroller. Internally, each block has one or two "signals" at each end, that regulate exit from that block and entry into the next. Each signal can be R/Y/G depending on the occupancy of the block. I am now in the process of connecting some actual signals to the system, so the status of the blocks actually appears on the layout!


For automated train control, trains begin in a yard. Each train has associated with it an RFID tag - in the shell for a diesel, or in an associated boxcar for a steam engine.

Exiting the yard, a train passes the RFID reader on the layout. When the RFID reader detects a tag, it informs the microcontroller. Stored in EEPROM is a table that provides the TMCC id of the engine associated with that RFID tag; that is the only way the system knows which train is triggering the sensors.


Software then takes care of routing trains along the track, detecting trains as they trigger the sensors at each end of a track block. Train speed is regulated by the virtual signals associated with each block. A block's entry signals are green if the block is empty, red if the block is occupied, and yellow if the next block along that direction is red. When a sensor is triggered or becomes vacant, the system determines (based on the prior block occupancies) whether that represents an entry or exit from the block, and updates the signals accordingly. Each train then checks the signal it is currently controlled by, and the system issues TMCC speed commands to seed, slow, or stop the train.

A neat feature is the use of switches. When a train approaches a divergent switch, the system checks the status of the two possible exit blocks. If one block is freer than the other, the system throws the switch to route the train into the clearer block. If both blocks are equally clear, the system reads the status of the switch via the DZ-2001 data wire, and routes the train along the path the switch is currently set to. (This allows some operator intervention!)

One recent feature is the ability to divide a long straight block into multiple straight blocks. When a train enters such a block, the system prohibits entry into all straight blocks ahead of the train to avoid head-on collisions! However, after the train passes through the straight block, blocks BEHIND it become open for entry of additional trains.


So far, I have run the system with three trains automatically running on the layout at once. Operation is GENERALLY reliable... that being said, occasionally the switches or the engines seem to miss a TMCC command with potentially dangerous consequences. The system does a fair bit of checking for error conditions, but not all faults can be recognized with simple occupancy sensors so it pays to keep a finger near the emergency halt button.


In the future, I want to modify the system so the operator can control a train manually (this could be a conventional or DCS engine) and the system routes the automatic trains to avoid it. One can also imagine assigning different "priorities" to trains (e.g., passenger gets priority over freight [unless you're Amtrak]) instead of the "first come, first serve" priority currently embodied.

Still farther in the future, it would be cool to have a computer interface that would display a picture of the layout, signals, and current trains, and maybe even a touch-screen for controlling switches, signals, or trains!

Two concluding thoughts:

1) This is why TMCC rocks. You can control your layout via a simple serial port.

2) I knew absolutely nothing about electronics two years ago! It's amazing what you can learn on the net these days.

Yog

Wow, Yog!
Fabulous design!

I'm at the beginning of a similar project. Using AMX microcontrollers from EBAY because I'm familiar with their programming. The AMX product line includes controllers with lots of serial ports, and lots of relay contact outputs and contact-closure / TTL inputs. Thanks for the input conditioning circuit; I'll need it for the AMX inputs for the same reasons you mentioned.
I only have one TMCC engine and four Legacy engines, plus one Electric RR TMCC conversion. Was disappointed to find that the Legacy base (at least with 1.0 firmware) won't let you use the serial port to input Legacy commands for Legacy devices. It essentially swallows the leading Legacy command string HEX character (F8 I think it was). Doesn't even flash the Data light when it sees that prefix. It reports Legacy "F8" commands out of the serial port just fine, so you can at least respond to Legacy-related commands and events from the CAB-2. But, alas, not the reverse. I think that was one of those make-it-difficult-for-MTH-DCS decisions. You can still send all original TMCC commands via the Legacy base serial port as you are doing now with the TMCC base, TMCC command structures in Legacy appear to be identical.

Question: What RFID reader did you use, if I may ask?
Thanks!
//Mark

Hi Delorean, thanks & welcome to the forum!

I don't have Legacy yet so I haven't tried any experiments with it. I think there was some discussion a few months back about Lionel's decision to not accept Legacy commands through the serial port - no doubt as you say to prevent DCS from accessing Legacy features. Seems foolish to me - if I have DCS, then a DCS-enabled Legacy base is more desirable to me than a non-enabled base. (Likewise, one reason I don't have DCS is the inability to control it via the port).

I used a small 125khz RFID reader now available from Sparkfun electronics. There may be better ones out there now.

Originally I thought to mount the RFID reader under the track, but attaching tags to the underside of trucks was problematic (hard to read because of the metal, and clearance issues). So I mount the tags along the side shell of a car or diesel and have the reader in a trackside building. In retrospect this is probably much better, because the RFID reader is easily accessible.

Yog

Thanks, Yog! I'll take a look at the RFID device. I'm still designing the benchwork; track and some buildings are laid out on the floor right now. Programming the control environment is the fun part for now. AMX environment includes touch panels so one looming task is to draw the final layout on it and write code to display train and position.

I have a slew of optical sensors identical to the ones at the link below that I was considering strategically locating and disguising somehow. These are excellent sensors, highly adjustable and wonderfully reliable, but I like the RFID idea better, can identify actual engine, etc.

http://www.bgmicro.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=12783&HS=1

Thanks!

//Mark

Great thread! I'm learning a lot from you guys. Thank you very much.

Nice Job, Jog.

Ernie

Great job and the knowlege I am getting is great.

wmwalker - Welcome to the forum!

Hi all,

Yog and Mark, you guys may be interested in this software package: RailRoad & Co. TrainController

I've been working with this software for my current layout project. The software has a lot of the control logic built in for controlling routing of up to 10 trains simultaneously. It's primarily intended for DCC users in the HO world, but it is ported for TMCC. They list TMCC as a "partially supported" system, but so far I haven't come across any missing commands.

The system has a nice GUI, and the "getting started" tutorial is well written. I had a very basic test track up and running under computer control in an afternoon.

The package isn't cheap, but there is a full featured free demo version if you want play around.

quote:

Originally posted by Yog-Sothoth:

In the future, I want to modify the system so the operator can control a train manually (this could be a conventional or DCS engine) and the system routes the automatic trains to avoid it. One can also imagine assigning different "priorities" to trains (e.g., passenger gets priority over freight [unless you're Amtrak]) instead of the "first come, first serve" priority currently embodied.

Yog

I'm actually reading this thread on an Amtrak train (the Wolverine between Chicago and Ann Arbor), and can personally attest that this is true .

Very cool system.

Matt

Gents-
Great thread! I love to see trains run, and to see ‘kids’ watch them run.

After several HO layouts and the frustration of showing them to friends while attempting to concurrently run three or four trains, I designed and built programmable controllers. The first one in 1975-77, totally built from discrete IC’s and other electronic components, and the second in 1986-90, which was PC-based (Compaq 8086), programmed in QuickBasic and assembly language.

The later, the K&NK RR (Keyboard and No Knobs) could be controlled manually via the keyboard, or ‘spoken to’ (used a voice interface board called the ‘Little Dictator’) or programmed for practically unlimited operations of up to four trains. The layout used 48 hall-effect sensors on the track to detect trains, and each car had a small magnet glued underneath to trigger the sensors. It was a dream.

Fast forward to 2008, and after some 18 years in hiatus, I returned to my childhood favorite hobby: O-gauge trains. I also discovered MTH, DCS, and its record-playback feature. Wow! But I also have been somewhat frustrated with the inability to edit and to download/upload the sessions.

Wouldn’t it be nice to be able to interface with DCS (and Legacy?) with the PC and use the keyboard and monitor as the remote?! I am confident that if MTH and Lionel made the protocols for control known, that there would many who would develop great software with very friendly GUIs, which would allow all sort of additional operational features to both systems.

Dave:
Any future for DCS from the “RR&Co TC” software?

Alex

Hi Alex,

quote:

Dave:
Any future for DCS from the “RR&Co TC” software?

I don't have any real inside info, but I doubt it. Someone who was dedicated to the project could probably run DCS from a PC after reading the serial port and charting the commands. From what Mark (Delorean 2790) said above that same process would be far more difficult to impossible with Legacy. The real problem is that even if someone did do the work to interface with DCS or Legacy they'd receive a nastygram from MTH or Lionel's legal department as soon as they tried to share their findings. It already happened when one forum member tried to start an open source project a few years ago.

quote:

I am confident that if MTH and Lionel made the protocols for control known, that there would many who would develop great software with very friendly GUIs, which would allow all sort of additional operational features to both systems.

The TMCC protocol was published by Lionel over a dozen years ago. This led to some notable hardware developments but not much in the way of software. With the computer operators being a subset of command control people being a subset of train operators it is pretty much a niche.

Also keep in mind that Legacy builds on the TMCC core so a great deal of the Legacy command set is known, just not the Legacy extensions. So there is still plenty there to build a software package around. It would have to be a labor of love however - I don't think this is killer app territory. Perhaps an offering from Lionel would be an exception.

As for MTH: ha!

Ingenierio No1 posted:

quote:

Wouldn’t it be nice to be able to interface with DCS (and Legacy?) with the PC and use the keyboard and monitor as the remote?!

Alex,
At last April's York gathering of DCS Users I asked the MTH folks if they are considering this sort of PC interface. The answer was they did look into it but did not find enough user interest to justify the effort.
Tom

I do like that Legacy command set is essentially a superset of TMCC. I haven't found any TMCC serial port commands that don't also work via the Legacy base, both input and output. That means MTH DCS should work fine with a Legacy base, too.
The even better news is that the Legacy base DOES report any Legacy commands from the handheld to the PC, it just doesn't respond to them. So if you have a PC program that you want to control from the Legacy remote, you can. I can start up a Legacy engine via the remote, adjust speed, sound horns and whistles, boost, brake, etc...and the Legacy base cheerfully reports every keystroke to the PC. So you can have the PC keep up with what you do to interact with Legacy engines....you just can't have the PC send commands back to the Legacy base.

I use an AMX controller to control Fastrack switches and layout lights and accessories via the Legacy remote, and it also interacts with my AMX home automation system. I have a Legacy Accesssory name called "Lighting", and I can then press numeral keys to control layout lights, room lights, even the ceiling fan. Working on interpreting the Lionel speed graph to correspond to room light level, for example.

Not sure I should say this here (may discourage Lionel from unlocking Legacy input someday)...but I also use the Legacy control as a remote to my TV via AMX. Big red knob makes a pretty good volume control, Boost/Brake changes channels, and press it for Mute. Punching in the channel number via the Numeric keypad is handy. Now if I could just decode the Legacy module data structure so I can load my own icons...maybe later :-)