Never posted on the real train forum before so not sure if this has ever been discussed. Been planning a trip to California and was trying to decide between flying out or taking Amtrak. I was alittle taken aback by the disparities:

Flying:
Air Itinerary
Trip Date Day Stops Routing Flight Routing Details
Depart Sep 01 Mon 1 BWI-MDW-LAX 27 Depart Baltimore (BWI) at 7:20 AM
Arrive in Chicago (MDW) at 8:15 AM
1799 Change planes in Chicago (MDW) departing at 9:35 AM
Arrive in Los Angeles (LAX) at 12:05 PM
Return Sep 15 Mon 1 LAX-MCI-BWI 436 Depart Los Angeles (LAX) at 6:40 AM
Arrive in Kansas City (MCI) at 11:50 AM
847 Change planes in Kansas City (MCI) departing at 12:40 PM
Arrive in Baltimore (BWI) at 4:05 PM

Pricing
Passenger
Type Trip Routing Type of Fare Base Fare U.S.
Taxes PFC Security
Fee1 Passenger(s) Total
Adult Depart BWI-MDW-LAX Wanna Get Away $223.26 $23.74 $9.00 $5.00 2 $522.00
Return LAX-MCI-BWI Wanna Get Away $187.91 $21.09 $9.00 $5.00 2 $446.00

Total $411.17 $44.83 $18.00 $10.00 $968.00
1 Security Fee is the government-imposed September 11th Security Fee.

Amtrak:

2 Passengers:
Passenger 1: Adult
Passenger 2: Adult

Rail Fare: $870.00
Accommodations Price: $1,426.00

Total: $2,296.00



Departing: Baltimore - Penn Station, MD (BAL) To Los Angeles - Union Station, CA (LAX)
Service
Departs
Arrives Duration Amenities Seats/
Rooms
195 Northeast Regional Baltimore, MD
- Penn Station
(BAL)
1:40 pm
01-SEP-08 Washington, DC
- Union Station
(WAS)
2:25 pm
01-SEP-08 0h 45m Snack car 2 Reserved Coach Seats

29 Capitol Limited Washington, DC
- Union Station
(WAS)
4:05 pm
01-SEP-08 Chicago, IL
- Union Station
(CHI)
8:40 am
02-SEP-08 17h 35m Dining car, Lounge, Checked baggage, Onboard wheelchair ramp 1 Superliner Roomette

3 Southwest Chief Chicago, IL
- Union Station
(CHI)
3:15 pm
02-SEP-08 Los Angeles, CA
- Union Station
(LAX)
8:15 am
04-SEP-08 43h 0m Dining car, Lounge, Checked baggage, Onboard wheelchair ramp 1 Superliner Roomette


Returning: Los Angeles - Union Station, CA (LAX) To Baltimore - Penn Station, MD (BAL)
Service
Departs
Arrives Duration Amenities Seats/
Rooms
4 Southwest Chief Los Angeles, CA
- Union Station
(LAX)
6:45 pm
15-SEP-08 Chicago, IL
- Union Station
(CHI)
3:20 pm
17-SEP-08 42h 35m Dining car, Lounge, Checked baggage, Onboard wheelchair ramp 1 Superliner Roomette

30 Capitol Limited Chicago, IL
- Union Station
(CHI)
7:05 pm
17-SEP-08 Washington, DC
- Union Station
(WAS)
1:30 pm
18-SEP-08 17h 25m Dining car, Lounge, Checked baggage, Onboard wheelchair ramp 2 Lower Level Coach Seats

148 Northeast Regional Washington, DC
- Union Station
(WAS)
3:02 pm
18-SEP-08 Baltimore, MD
- Penn Station
(BAL)
3:44 pm
18-SEP-08 0h 42m Snack car 2 Reserved Coach Seats

$968.00 for less than 8 hours as opposed to $2296.00 for almost 3 days???
I realize that includes sleeping accomodations but GOOD LORD! No wonder people don't take the train for trips anymore. Yes I understand about the allure of train travel I've taken a few in the past but there isn't really enough layover time to do anything like shopping or site seeing so that doesn't even figure into the allure aspect, plus 2 days of staring out the windows has to get monotonous no matter what the scenery.
Well that's my rant for today, if I just wanted to ride in a train for fun for $2300 I'd at least like some free food.

.

......Train trip?...........priceless

That's why I say long distance rail is dead as heck.
Facts are proven that city to city high speed rail is where it's at. All you gotta do is look at what rail has done between New York and Washington DC..even beats airtime!

Ed

Long, long ago, you could you ride the Amtrak, as they called it, from Jacksonville FL all the way through Louisianna and Texas and arrive at L.A. Union Station two and a half days later.


Now, to complete the same trip you have to go JAX-D.C.-Chicago-L.A. and it takes four days.

I can drive there quicker!

I too looked at taking the train cross country instead of flying. I just don't see it as a viable alternative. The only way I would do it would be to make the trip a vacation. I'd love to go from Cleveland to Seattle and back, but I don't know if I ever will.

It's all about perspective. You really need to compare the equivalent accomodations to get a fair assessment. If you take the time portion out (as if you are considering the train), you are still getting a cheaper price for coach then you are for the plane.

Riding with accomodations of course will cost more, but it is considered first class and includes meals. You can't find much by way of food on airlines anymore.

Granted, 5 days by coach on a train can be quite the adventure, but that is what makes it interesting. Having done the Chicago to Arizona trip on three occassions and the Chicago to Trenton trip nearly a dozen times, I found Amtrak to be quite rewarding and relaxing. I spent most of my time in the lounge car during the day anyway.

When riding sleeper, it was much more comfortable but of course that comes at a price.

My theory is that it is not the destination that matters, it is the journey. Having said that, there are times when you just have to get there and then the plane makes the most sense, but if time is not the factor, the intangibles of the train make for memorable journeys.

The train(s) to take for sight seeing is the Western Orient Express. There are several packages taking you from the East Coast to various sight seeing routes: for instance, there's one that takes a northern route that stops at Yellowstone Park and other attractions along the way and ends up in San Francisco. Then you would presumably fly back home. Another one takes a southern route thru Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and ends up in LA.

It's been three or four years since I checked this out, so I don't know if it's still in operation.

At the time, the average price was around $10k. Since I'm retired and on a fixed annuity, it ain't gonna happen for me unless I win a lottery.

Some may remember this was featured on one of the cable channels a few years ago. If funds were unlimited, I'd take them all.

Bill

This is a very interesting topic for me. First, I have always wanted to take the train from Chicago to both northern and southern CA. And the trip down the west coast of CA looks pretty awesome as well.

So, three years ago my son and his two boys and I planned to take the CA Zephyr from Naperville, IL to Sacramento, CA. The idea was that our wives weren't sure that they wanted to go that far on the train so us "train nuts" should go instead. Since my son didn't feel he could afford a bedroom, the plan was to rough it in coach. We had the tickets bought and were all set until I had a triple bypass that screwed up my going. My son and two grandsons went without me and had a ball. Sleeping in their seats was the only negative and they said they wouldn't go that way again but would instead wait until they could afford sleeping accomodations.

My son is dying to take the Empire Builder. My wife isn't sure she wants to be "trapped" on a train for 3 days going to CA. I have agreed if we take the CA Zephyr we will get a bedroom, but she says do we have to take the train both ways? But here's the kicker, she hates to fly. She wants to drive. So, should we take the CA Zephyr out, take the train down the coast to LA and rent a car and rive back on Route 66? Or maybe go the reverse? I wonder what it costs to rent a car in CA, pay for the gas and drop off fees in Chicago?



Art

Flying is cheaper most of the time but on trips less than 1000 miles ( and only one overnight) I still prefer the low stress and comfortable atmosphere of the "hotel on rails" and lets us not forget that the Autotrain to Florida is price competitive as you have your automobile onboard traveling with you.
Our summer trip on the Autotrain was one of the most comfortable trips that we've ever taken. You check in an hour or two beforehand, board at 4PM, go for wine and cheese hour, dine at 5, 7 or 9PM in the dining car, relax in the bar/lounge and retire to your room for a good nights rest. In the morning you wake up around 7:30, shower, go to breakfast and by 9:30AM you arrive in Sanford pleasantly rested to begin your day. You've got to sleep anywhere you are so why not do it on the train?

We did a cross-country train trip in 1998. It was more expensive than flying direct though Amtrak All Aboard America pass included excursions to Chicago, Grand Canyon, San Francisco, and Seattle along the way. A truly comparable trip by air would have been much, much more: money and hassle.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by baltimoretrainworks:

$968.00 for less than 8 hours as opposed to $2296.00 for almost 3 days???
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You get what you pay for." (Sometimes not even that.)

quote:

$968.00 for less than 8 hours as opposed to $2296.00 for almost 3 days???
I realize that includes sleeping accomodations but GOOD LORD! No wonder people don't take the train for trips anymore. Yes I understand about the allure of train travel I've taken a few in the past but there isn't really enough layover time to do anything like shopping or site seeing so that doesn't even figure into the allure aspect, plus 2 days of staring out the windows has to get monotonous no matter what the scenery.
Well that's my rant for today, if I just wanted to ride in a train for fun for $2300 I'd at least like some free food.

You are missing a big point. The airlines are in deep ****, hemorrhaging money like there's no tomorrow and there might not be. With that said you have a work force with low moral doing maintenance these airlines can't afford. As one that works in the aviation industry this sounds like a recipe for disaster.


Good luck flying.

In October 05 or 06, I took the train to LAX from
Washington, DC. The Washington to Chicago portion was on
the Capitol and went to B&O route for the most part. The
trip took 16 hours via Amtrak compared to 12 hours that the
B&O used to take.The part from Chicago to LAX was on the
Southwest Chief and went thru Alberquerke(sp?). The entire
trip DC to LAX took about 3 days. Cost was $150. The return trip from LAX to trip was on Southwest Airlines LAX to BWI. It took 3hrs 55
minutes and cost $150.

Al W.

Concerning train travel vs. airline travel there are a few distinctions that need to be made. IMO train travel is only practical for trips 1000 miles or less. This way you can travel overnite and arrive the next morning at your destination, taking time that you would otherwise be sleeping for the trip.
No time is lost this way.
As for cost: coach train travel is inexpensive and usually priced less than airline coach travel. First class train travel w. accomodations is also less expensive than first class airline travel is.
Point is that when we say "its cheaper to fly" the class of travel needs to be considered. Also for trips 300 miles or less train travel has always proved faster for me, especially so on the Acela, but on long trips of course an airline flight can be quicker.
Perhaps the choice depends on how well one can tolerate the filthy, crowded, cramped, unhealthy confines of air travel, (and the dehumanizing process of boarding) for the convenience of a shorter trip if you enjoy a comfortable, scenic and relaxing overnight journey as we do.

quote:

Originally posted by TrainsRMe:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by baltimoretrainworks:

$968.00 for less than 8 hours as opposed to $2296.00 for almost 3 days???
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You get what you pay for." (Sometimes not even that.)

$968.00/8 hours = $121.00 per hr.
$2,296.00/72 hours = $31.89 per hr.

Then you have to factor in the "human variable", i.e., for $968.00 I get treated no better, and sometimes worse, than a piece of luggage, if flying coach. If flying first class, you are guaranteed to be treated like a piece of luggage. Then you MIGHT receive a complimentary snack, consisting of two Keebler Club crackers and water (ice may be extra). Meanwhile, while paying significantly more for the train, the treatment is more civilized for rail-coach than air-coach; the treatment for rail-first class is DEFINITELY more civilized than air-first class, as meals and sleeping accommodations are included, and whether coach or first class on a train, you don't feel like a sardine.

Granted, flying is more convenient, but it is the second or third option for me, while rail travel is first (as applicable), and auto weighed against flying for second.

Bottom line: Expense aside, trains are the only CIVILIZED way to travel on land.

Bill & Dennis have both made good points.

Another thing to consider when comparing the cost of train vs air travel is discounts that might be available. Do airlines offer discount fares for senior citizens? Amtrak does.

Amtrak Superliner coaches are, imo, "the only way to fly." (Slogan courtesy of long-defunct Western Airlines.) These cars offer far more legroom than on most airplanes. The backs of the seats in front have pockets & fold-down trays, similar to airline seats. They also have multi-position footrests. The seats recline to several positions and are comfortable enough to sleep in. These seats also have leg rests. The car attendants provide small pillows at night for no extra charge.

Passengers can get up & walk around, go to the lounge car with large side windows and curved upper windows partway into the roof. Not quite as good as a dome car perhaps as you cannot see forward--but then Superliners are taller than standard cars and a higher-level dome would not be practical. The diners have good food. The plates are "plasticized paper" to save money but utensiles are non-disposable flatware and the tables have traditional white tablecloths.

Yes, a long-distance trip takes time, but so what? If one has the time, think of a train ride as a "land cruise." And with gas prices well above $4 per gallon in some areas of the country just a month ago, I think the cost of a train trip might well be less than the cost of driving in some, if not many, situations.

And, even though late, the train usually takes passengers to the scheduled destination city. How often do airplanes get diverted to other airports because of bad weather conditions or other problems?

Before the advent of jet aircraft and the Interstate Highway System, the railroads offered many passenger trains connecting most places in the USA, and many of the long-distance trains in that era had faster schedules than are offered today (not Amtrak's fault). Look at an OFFICIAL GUIDE or old RR timetable prior to about 1955, during the post-WW2 period or ca 1940, or go back to 1929 & see what was available to the traveling public.

With the exception of the Northeast Corridor (Boston-Washington DC where Amtrak owns the tracks), we still have a long way to go in the USA before we get back to what we used to have, let alone trying to achieve the services available in Europe or Japan.

That should actually make you angry for a different reason. The government hardly subsidises Amtrak. Their budget may sound large, but when you compare it to what the airlines and trucking industries are getting it's a drop in the bucket. If everything were subsidised evenly, you'd have a very competative rate for all.

Further, to go from Philly to Chicago for example should take a day and a rider should be able to go straight across the states of Pennsylvania, and Ohio to get there. Not the case, the rider must go from Philly, down to DC, a complete waste of time and resources, then go back up to Pittsburgh, then across Ohio to Chicago Ill. It takes two days to do it too. They make the routes so stupid that its an inconvenience.

As you said, no wonder no one takes the train anymore. But the Dem's in congress will scream bloody murder about cutting back on driving and doing without. Maybe they should level out the subsidies, and give tax break for businesses that ship by rail. I know, that makes too much sense.

PRRDave

Doesn't the Broadway Linited go NYC to Philadelphia then
to Harrisburg and then west to Chicago. Without the need to go toDC?

Al

Al,

The Broadway hasn't run in around a decade. To go Philly to Chicago one needs to either go to DC and change to the Capitol Limited or Cardinal, or go to NY and board The Lakeshore.

There is a daily coach-only train from Philly to Pittsburgh, but I can't imagine what the wait in the 'burgh would be for the Capitol Limited connection!

Jon

PRRDave makes some good points. I wonder how the prices would change if subsidies are changed. I used to read Trains magazine and recall (it was years ago) just what crumbs Amtrak received as compared to the airline industry - I think it was less than 5%.

I always thought how neat it would be to take a high speed train cross the country. It would cost billions to build (much of it would have to be elevated) but the efficiencies of rail transport are much greater than air transport, so potentially people, mail, etc. could be moved at a savings.

Paul

Al,Jon et al--

Amtrak's website includes a section of schedules listing all their passenger trains. The "Pennsylvanian" runs from New York City down to Philly & then across PA. It gets to Pittsburgh in the evening. The "Capitol Limited" westbound leaves Pgh about midnite & arrives Chicago the next morning via Alliance OH to Cleveland and then west thru Indiana on the old NYC mainline, so there is a 5-hr or so wait in Pittsburgh changing trains.

Thus the westbound trip takes a day & a nite. This is admittedly slower than the old days of the "Broadway" or "20th Century" but is a viable trip for those who like to travel by train.

Eastbound, the connection time at Pgh is more critical. The "Capitol" leaves Chicago 7:05 PM and is supposed to arrive in Pgh approx 5:30 AM. The eastbound "Pennsylvanian" leaves Pgh about 7:20 AM which allows daytime viewing across all of PA into New York City.

The routing of the "Capitol" changed from Amtrak's early operation, which I think used the original B&O lines west of Pgh, just as the "Broadway" used the original PRR tracks. I don't recall the exact year, but sometime during the 1980s or '90s a new connector track was built in Pgh a couple miles east of Penn Station from the original PRR mainline to the original B&O line (used mainly for freight trains after the B&O through passenger trains used the P&LE "water level" route between Pgh & Youngstowbn OH).

The old B&O line ran north from the Monongahela River thru Panther Hollow, tunneling under Neville St in Pittsburgh's Oakland neighborhood & then crossing over the PRR passenger mainline. I don't recall if the B&O line went under or over the Pennsy but know they did not intersect at grade. The B&O then made a westerly S-curve to head north over the Allegheny River towards Butler & then west to Newcastle.

The Pgh connector track was built specifically for Amtrak, to allow the "Capitol" to operate on the original B&O tracks over Sand Patch thru Cumberland MD and along the Potomac to Washington DC. That is the most scenic part of that ride & most of it is traversed in daylight; but eastbound more than westbound. The connector track is arranged so that no backing move is required of the "Capitol" in either direction.

I am taking two of my grandsons to trainfest in nov.The roundtrip air fare was 794.00.We are going Amtrak roundtrip fare is 185.00 and counting airport check in time the train is 3 hours longer.