I've heard that hand fired locomotives lasted longer than stoker fed locomotives is this true? Or is this a old wives tale.?

Old wives tale...

The Fireman probably lasted longer on a stoker-fired engine.

I COULD SEE THERE BEING MORE PROBLEMS WITH THE STOKER ITSELF HAND FED EATS UP THE FIREMEN

Well Joe, maybe for a Fireman that doesn't know what He's doing!

when the PRR mikados L1s were returned to service during WWII, they were assigned 2 firemaen.

Hot Water LOL Knowing what you are doing does not make shoveling a few tons of coal any easier. When Steamtown was in Bellos Falls I fired for two seasons with engineer Andy a retired Erie
Lackawanna engineer. He was a great friend, cook and Railroader. Steamtown tried to always use a stoker fired loco so the firemen would not quit. It is hard work and you still have to shovel and rake a stoker filled fire. The glamor is on the engineers side of the cab...

I've said it before, wave to the Engineer if you wish, but tip your hat to the Fireman.

I'll toss one in there.

Anyone can run the **** thing, brakes off, reverser forward, and pull the thottle 'til it is right over your head.... but firing.... not THE hardest thing to do, but it certainly is testing to learn, and a proud thing to acomplish.

I'm a young guy, only 19. Still wet behind the ears. I decided I was going to volunteer on a small operation that uses a steam locomotive. A tiny little thing, and currently the last operating PRR steam locomotive anywhere... PRR 643.

So, after paying my dues the first week of volunteering by cleaning the engine inside and out, I was going to get to run it. It was alot of fun, getting to feel how each operating mechanism reacts, and feeling the exhaust firing, all the way up your kidneys. But really what I've been doing is firing.

I like firing. All in all, I like it because it's alittle more "behind the scenes". Everyone watches the engineer. Only true railroaders watch the fireman... or as they call me, "fireboy", or "shovelboy" I like it because I'm using muscles I normally don't use. I like it because without me, the engine couldn't move. I do my best to make sure whoever is in the right hand seat has got enough steam for what they want to do.

Now, I've been having to fight some odds. Not terrible, but no helpful things either. We are now using this neat stuff called "unburnable coal" which just turns to bone in the firebox without any heat generation. The stuff just makes MOUNDs of clinker. Hard clink. Nasty clink. I shake the grates, but it just turns straight to hard bone. Rake. I rake. I rake, and shake. Shake the grates. Try and get some draft with the blower.


Before this lovely junk, we had coal you had to mine yourself. The coal was really good.... just the right size, and it burned well too. BUT.... you had to sift it.... sift it hard. It was all dust. ALL DUST. Nasty, flying, itchy, sneezing dust. Cough-cough dust.


So, my first trip firing I was thrust into an exciting world. Total immersion.


Give the engine a drink.
Sitting, running the blower.
Need to shovel a layer all around.


But with what coal? All I see is dust?

That's what the big screen propped up in the tender bunker is for.

I was busy sifting each scoop full. I had to. If I didn't sift, I'd have just a few lumps and all dust. The dust just clogs the grates terribly.

Cabriders. Tiny cab,.... it just got smaller. Two cabriders.
I have to climb in the one person's lap to run the injector. I have to watch the other person on the deck when I'm sifting....and then tossing in the scoop. Moving, jostling, sifting, running, opening/closing, working.

But at least the engineer had plently of steam. I was very proud to lift the first safety valve. My first safety valve.


Then came this coal which dosen't burn/. We ran into trouble with pushing the engine on such low steam, and alot of people tried firing. No one could get it to work right.

Now, this coal isn't coal you have to sift. Oh no, this is coal you have to pick. It comes in 40 lb chunks as big as your midsection. Huge.


So now I'm picking my coal on the moving deck, trying hard not to pick the cabriders.... or get flying bits of coal in their face. Hey, I'm sorry but I have a job to do.

Picking.

Scooping.

No holes.

Running the blower, no draft.

Losing steam.


Needless to say, it can seem like a cruel world when you're trying to give the man on the right more steam, while picking your own coal, nothing seems to work, and your cabriders are magnifying your ever growing inadequecy.

But in the end, it's fun. It's hard work. I know not everyone can do this.
And I'll learn....****, I've only been doing it two months or so.


Ya see, there are young people trying to learn. It's not big like 734, or 844, or anything with a steam powered stoker. I'm enjoying myself. It's small, and hot, and stinky.

Hand firing anything isn't for the faint of heart.

-Jeffrey (keeping steam alive)

"Anyone can run the **** thing..."

Spoken like a true 19 year old with VERY limited experience handling trains, either steam or diesel-electric powered.

Try dropping off a long 2.6% grade with several thousand tons following you with nothing but air to control the train. Or, drop off that same grade with several passenger cars behind you filled with men, women, children, elderly, etc... with only air to control and maintain a SMOOTH and SLACK FREE trip in the process.

I do the above as needed for the current railroad I work for. In addition, many (MANY) years ago when employed by a tourist railroad I also hand-fired wood burners, coal burners, and oil burners, in addition to running them pulling passengers coaches and taking care to watch for wayward spectators and/or (oh my God) children.

Yes, firing requires different "skill sets". Yes, you can blow the **** thing up if you're really lousy at it, thus killing you and the engineer. However, the engineer has your butt in his hands at all times, as well as rest of the crew, and the responsibility of the enitire lading, be it a million dollars worth of freight or priceless cargo (passengers), riding on his shoulders.

Glad you enjoy your "job". Get a good grasp of how to do it, learn all you can about it, and as you do, try to get over yourself. You know, if you try to eventually hire out on a freight railroad, you'll have a rough row to hoe if you bring this attitude into an engine and the veteran engineer suspects you to be one of those "Mr. Conductor" types.

Andre Ming
Eastern OK

Well said, Andre!

This is a good time to point out something I always try to instill in our newer volunteers:

First - You don't know anything.

Second - You learn JUST enough that, you THINK you know everything!

Third - You have learned so much, that you then realize how little you REALLY DO know!

It is best to get through step two VERY, VERY fast!!!

This also works very well in life.

quote:

"Anyone can run the **** thing..."

Heh, heh, heh.

Andre, I got a charge out of that one, too. I'm sure Jeffrey means well, but when you're 19...well...you know everything.

Try handling a 34-car passenger train on a twisting route in the New River Gorge with folks 30+ cars back in the train, wearing their finest clothes, enjoying their steak dinner in the diner and sipping their coffee (or other adult beverage)...all at 60 mph.

If I make ONE mistake, someone is going to wear their dinner and I'm going to catch you-know-what when we get in at the end of the run. Thankfully, that has never happened.

Jeffrey, I'm just razzin' you a little bit. You should be proud of what you are doing and what you're learning. It's fellas like you that will keep steam alive after old farts like me are long gone.

Rich said:

"Jeffrey, I'm just razzin' you a little bit. You should be proud of what you are doing and what you're learning. It's fellas like you that will keep steam alive after old farts like me are long gone."

Thanks for injecting that into this thread, Rich. In my pompous indignation ( ), I forgot to add that, I too, think it's great that a young man of 19 has taken an interest in preserving steam and historical railroading. For that I say "Atta'boy".

Young Jeffrey: I respectfully suggest taking a more humble approach until your experience has had time to catch up and far surpass your enthusiasm.


Another Old Fart In An Engine Cab,

Andre Ming

YOU ON THE PENNSY 0-6-0 SWITCHER THAT DOSE "YOUR HAND ON THE THROTTLE" TOURS .
(SAW A YOUTUBE VIDEO ) Really neat switcher
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t3gTg0A8B0

Hand firings a ball. I fired 40 at new hope for 6 months, and loved it. I even got to fire for ross rowland (lets just say ide rather have a stoker for him). I Hired on full time and filled in around days in the cab with trackwork and shop work. And hey, I'm only 19 too . Im going back soon this year as student engineer until my NORAC runs out

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Garden State Steam Hobbies,

Whoa there, that didn't go over how I had planned.

I feel like I've been tried, found guilty, and sentenced without ever being able to defend myself!

quote:

Spoken like a true 19 year old with VERY limited experience handling trains, either steam or diesel-electric powered.

Jeeze Andre, I've watched you a few forums for a couple of years...even PM you ages ago on the trainsim.com forums about some topic I don't remeber. Yet that statement feels like a cheapshot coming from someone who's life experiences I respect. Did it ever cross anyones mind that I was talking about the 643 where I volunteer? Seemed very eager to jump down my throat. Maybe I should have been more clear...... I was talking about 643, where we have a ridege range of engineers.... from the regular crew, to "engineers for an hour" who some have no experience whatsover. And yes, ANYONE can run it!

quote:

First - You don't know anything.

I don't pretend that I do. And yes, there are other volunteers that belive this. The one was so full of himself, he put out the fire dumping so much coal on it.

quote:

You know, if you try to eventually hire out on a freight railroad, you'll have a rough row to hoe if you bring this attitude

All I have to say to that is too late




As for the intent of my posting... I was thinking more along the lines of lamenting the duties of fireman. If I didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't do it. Likewise, if they didn't like me, they wouldn't talk to me. They must love me since I get such a hard time (not being sarcastic) Sometimes my job objectives are actually spoken to me, but I know to expect them in the form of negative refinforcement.

I figured I'd share what limited experience I've had for the others on the forum who've never done it. I had not one iota of intent to impress, or to try showing off.-Jeffrey

Not mine!

"Whoa there, that didn't go over how I had planned."

We can only go by what you stated, Jeffrey.

Whether intended or not, the tone of your post sounded very derogatory toward those that occupy the right seat of a locomotive. Doesn't matter if you were only talking about some engine many of us are not familiar with.

"Yet that statement feels like a cheapshot coming from someone who's life experiences I respect."

Not a cheap shot, just stating a cold hard fact: Many young rail enthusiasts often have too much forum/book/railfan knowledge with zip experience, or minimal exposure at best. Unfortunately, when those types enter railroading, IF they don't learn their lesson before hand, they soon get a reputation for being a "know-it-all".

Case in point: One seasoned railroader I know refered to such a type we worked with at the time as a "smart a** know it all punk". Needless to say, the young greenhand didn't receive any input from the seasoned vet. Which is a shame, for he could have learned volumes of good experience and knowledge. Thus, those with such an attitude can find their association with fellow workers on the railroad can get mighty tough.

Hopefully, you are NOT how you sounded. If not, that's great. If so, then take my above post as it was intended: An admonition to drop such an attitude.

If none of the above applies to you, then we'll need to chalk it up to the shortcoming of the typed communication forum medium.

Good luck with the CSX.

Andre Ming
Eastern OK

Jeffrey,

Nice post. I enjoyed it thoroughly. I have no experience operating a real locomotive of any type, but as a young professional in my own line of work, I too get the 'age discrimination' comments from the older, but not necessarilly, more experienced folk in my field.

While I do not pretend to be a know it all in any field, I do know that we can ALL learn something from someone else whether younger or older! I regularly consult with individuals twice my age and earn their respect from my knowledge, while in turn learning from individuals half my age who have a new way of looking at an old question.

I liked your writing style, it was one of the more entertaining bits of writing on the forum. Keep it up and don't let the fossils get you down!

I, too, felt Jeffrey was dealt with pretty harshly by laming for a well-thought-out and nicely-written post by an enthusiastic young railroader. I in no way came away with the feeling that he was trying to disparage engineers. In no way did I see a "know it all" attitude come through--only one of excitement.

Jeffrey penned 3,155 well-written words that aptly describe some of the trials and tribulations of coal firing. He admitted he was young, inexperienced and "wet behind the ears."

Laming didn't get past the second sentence.

To turn the tables, in my experience it's "holier than thou" attitudes expressed by laming and others that is probably responsible for keeping far more young folks outside the ranks of railroading.

In my humble opinion.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: smd4,

I think Jeffery can decide for himself the ifs and buts and so forth of his letter. What we will ask him to do is copy it, put it away, and read it after he gets a few year's time in the right hand seat, which I expect is the true ambition of many firemen, or as they are called today, conductors.

As an outside observer, I can tell you this. A leadman in maintenance shop for many years, I worked with a number of helpers. One man stood out. He was the guy who was handing me the right wrench before I asked for it, always a feel for the work we were doing. Had another fella who always expressed his doubts about what we were doing, and how I was doing it. I gave him "easy to not screw up" jobs to do.. by himself.
Here's the point. Teamwork. The good guy and I got more done when just he was helping than any two of the others.

Here's the deal, as I would like it, if I was a fireman or engineer. The fireman's job is to get steam up, as much as the engineer needs. Engineer, handle the train well, and do not waste the steam that guy in the left seat is giving you.
One more little piece of advice, and I've found this true in any work or job I've done. Just do your job, don't complain, and NEVER, EVER, disparage those whom you work with to others on the job.

Ed

Jeffery said " Anyone can run the **** thing, brakes off, reverser forward, and pull the thottle 'til it is right over your head.... but firing.... not THE hardest thing to do, but it certainly is testing to learn, and a proud thing to acomplish." He never said anyone can do it well. I thought it was a well written story. Almost made me feel like I was there. And with 20 some years of seatbox experience it is true. Almost anyone can run a locomotive. Now train handling is a complete different story. Don't be to hard on him.

Perhaps the perspective that needs to be pointed out is that on a steam locomotive the syncronicity of fireman AND engineer allow for movement in the most wonderful form of reciprocating machinery. Without one, the other could not exist.

It is easy to get caught up in egos and forget that it takes a team to get the work done and their is no 'I' in team.

I know that sounds a bit PC in this "can't we all just get along" society, but there was once a time in this country where people worked together and put their differences aside when it was time to work.

The excellent book "Set Up Running" has much info on how one PRR engineman liked to fire his loco. In particular, he had a technique that he recommended on even stoker equipped locomotives. As I recall, it was to hand load up the sides, front and back. (lot of work) Then sit back for the next 2-3 hours as the motion of the loco would redistribute the coal.

smd4 said:

> I, too, felt Jeffrey was dealt with pretty harshly by
> laming for a well-thought-out and nicely-written post
> by an enthusiastic young railroader.

Enthusiasm is great. Glad to see a young man interested in railroading that is enthusiastic.

> Laming didn't get past the second sentence.

Thank you for helping me to more properly understand written english. For what it's worth, yes, I did read his post. In your haste to find fault with my original post, you must have failed to read my follow-up post time stamped 7/14 at 11:40 PM. In that I acknowledged that it was very possible I mis-interpreted his intent, as well as commending him for his enthusiasm.

You are correct in noting that the opening statement does catch one's attention and, unfortunately, detracts take from quality of the rest of it. Apparently, I wasn't the only one to take note of it, for some other railroading "fossils" noticed it too.

> To turn the tables, in my experience it's "holier than thou"
> attitudes expressed by laming...

Still smarting from the last time we crossed paths in a thread, smd4?

If by a "holier than thou" attitude you refer to sharing from experience with the inexperienced, then yes, I have tried to do that at times in the past. However, it typically proves to be rejected, so in the future I'll do my best to refrain from sharing with this forum life's experiences gained during railroading.

>... and others... that is probably responsible for keeping far
> more young folks outside the ranks of railroading.

Well, smd4, if an American male is that sensitive and thin skinned, with such a fragile se