Do any RRs still run their units long hood foward?

If it is a local freight with only a single unit, sometimes you don't have much choice.

For an Sw1500 front _is_ the long end.

I assume that the NS still runs some units long end leading since they had so many units set up that way or with dual controls. They even had SD60's (or was it SD50's) that had the long hood designated as "F"ront and had the cab controls set up for that direction.

Wyhog

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I assume that the NS still runs some units long end leading since they had so many units set up that way or with dual controls.

This only happens if it is a single unit train such as a turn-around shifter or if the lead unit breaks down in such a way that a trailing unit needs to be switched to the head end. Otherwise, we are leaving the terminal short hood forward.

You can give the fine folks at GE probably 99% of the credit for making that happen as their units would litteraly make you sick from the fumes running long hood forward.

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You can give the fine folks at GE probably 99% of the credit for making that happen as their units would litteraly make you sick from the fumes running long hood forward.

Yes we found that out on the BN way back in the 1970s. We used to deadhead on trains by riding the trailing units. All coal and hopper trains back then used U30C's and C30-7's and we were getting sick riding the 2nd units (or the 3rd, 4th, or 5th). They were at their worse when in 4-6 throttle. EMDs didn't do that for some reason, or at least not as bad. I began riding the lead unit when deadheading even if I had to stand up most of the way. Finally the BN stopped DH'ing on trains account of this. I didn't know that the NS finally came tot heir senses over the long hood forward issue.

Wyhog

Well Wyhog, I'll tell you why the EMD units don't gas you out like ther GE units do. The EMD two-stroke cycle engine, whether roots blower or turbocharged, has a pressurized exhaust manifold due to the nature of the scavenging affect in the design of the two-stroke combustion cycle. The GE four-stroke cycle prime mover does NOT have any pressure to the exhaust, and thus, at lower throttle positions, the exhaust gases come out and "fall to earth" so to speak.

Hot Water,
I never ever got sick when running those good ol' EMD units long hood forward. I would rather run them that way. A GE would kill you going downhill in dynamic at 50 mph with the fumes rolling back into the cab. Remember, this was long before air conditioned cabs. One night I even got sick setting out in the yard the fumes were so bad.

Another night after the union rules about running short hood forward went into effect, I went out to get my engines off of the ready track. The lead unit was an EMD and was facing long hood lead. The ready track foreman happened to be there and said he had to turn the lead unit. This was going to take a while to do. I told him that I would much prefer to take it like is but, he wouldn't have any of that. So we waited around until they turned the unit.

The location of the exhaust stack differed on the GE and EMD also. EMD's was close to the cab so by the time the exhaust rolled down to cab level it was well past the lead cab. I had a C30-7 in local service for a week, most miserable week on that job. It didn't matter who's units were in the CONSIST when dead heading in the Feather River Canyon, all those tunnels made any unit other than the lead one a smoky mess. I often wonder now though, is it better to ride in a contract van with idiot drivers or second units?

Greg

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EMD's was close to the cab so by the time the exhaust rolled down to cab level it was well past the lead cab.

Well, not exactly true for the "blown" (not turbo) geeps.

It is my understanding on NS if a train arrives at a terminal with the lead unit long hood forward, the Yard Master, or the Dispatcher are to be notified in order to make arrangements to have the unit turned at the earliest convienence. Now, whether or not this (rule)is adhered to, I cannot say. I was told this several years ago by a brakeman on Norfolk Southerns' Pocahontas Division in Williamson, West Virginia.

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Originally posted by Big Jim:

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EMD's was close to the cab so by the time the exhaust rolled down to cab level it was well past the lead cab.

Well, not exactly true for the "blown" (not turbo) geeps.

How true Big Jim. I was thinking of my time on the locals using SD40-2's. For a long time we didn't see GP38-2's on our locals due to the fire conditions. Although when I was a brakeman and we used GP9's, smoke was seldom an issue.

Greg

UP, with some of their remote control (beltpack) units.

And then there was the well-known flame from the stack when the throttle was advanced, which plagued GE's for a few years. I was always glad it was behind me on the Santa Fe. What's your take, Big Jim? Did the flame warm up the air around the cab when running long hood forward? Still got both of your eyebrows?

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It is my understanding on NS if a train arrives at a terminal with the lead unit long hood forward, the Yard Master, or the Dispatcher are to be notified in order to make arrangements to have the unit turned at the earliest convienence. Now, whether or not this (rule)is adhered to, I cannot say. I was told this several years ago by a brakeman on Norfolk Southerns' Pocahontas Division in Williamson, West Virginia.

This is still true here on the Pokey.
Here lately I've really had a lot of unit troubles where I had to switch the units around,and the trailing unit almost always seems to be facing long hood foward .
But we aren't really suppose to run long hood foward,unless it's a local say out of Portsmouth (Ohio),or Kenova,(WVa),or sometimes a lite unit out of Williamson.
There's not always a wye around to turn power.So sometimes it just can't be helped.
Before all the big time lawsuits over grade crossing accidents and the frequent stop signal violations that seemed for awhile to be regular happenings,the railroads weren't as jumpy about the long-hood issue.
I had to call a Cheif Dispatcher back early summer to verify I would take one unit and 98 loads 18 miles from Williamson to Naugatuck,Wva to turn it.The cheif said he wouldn't order me to do it,but asked if I would care since the wye at Naugatuck was the closest to turn power.
In the past (last 10-14 years)I've asked to turn NS wide bodies long-hood lead from Williamson to Portsmouth,and got a flat out "I can't let you" from the dispatchers office .
Things have really changed since then.

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Did the flame warm up the air around the cab when running long hood forward? Still got both of your eyebrows?

Never had to run one long hood forward. One thing about the flamers though, they always put down a smoke screen like a WWII destroyer before things lit up. So, you had fair warning before the night sky became day.

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Originally posted by Number 90:
And then there was the well-known flame from the stack when the throttle was advanced, which plagued GE's for a few years. I was always glad it was behind me on the Santa Fe. What's your take, Big Jim? Did the flame warm up the air around the cab when running long hood forward? Still got both of your eyebrows?

I've lit the interior of some tunnels with GE's. A fellow engineer started a fire leaving a siding with a GE. He and the conductor emptied 3 or 4 fire extinguishers on it before it was put out. By then the fire department arrived and hosed it down good. Yes GE's put on some good fire shows up until UP figured out they needed to brush the stacks out in the summer time in Stockton CA.

I had heard that NS discontinued the long hood forward as practice after a serious accident in western Ohio at I believe Continental Ohio at a curve where a signal was missed at a diamond after a curve. I recall the accident, but do not know if it actually caused the end of long hood forward or that was speculation by someone.

Some of the Southern locomotive where set up for Long Hood forward operations and the control stands in the cab where flipped to prevent the engineer from running the locomotive from the fireman side of the cab. When operating a locomotive this way it could cause the engineer to miss a signal. As more standard cabs locomotive where being built NS started using the Southern units in the trailing position and not the lead. Even now if a train has a unit operating in LHF the Engineer can shuffle units in there train to place a standard or safety cab unit on the head end. Of course if you’re running a train with only one unit you have no choice unless there’s a wye or turntable in the area.

The story that I got about all this was that at some point in the 1990s, there was a (supposed) lawsuit involving either a conductor, or an engineer that developed lung disease, either emphysema or cancer, due to the diesel exhaust coming back into the cab when going through tunnels while heading upgrade on the Pokey. The story goes that this person also worked the line in the last days of steam. Whether this is true or not, I cannot say. As we all know, stories sometimes get "expanded" upon in the areas of whats fiction VS what is fact. I was also told that this "person" also smoked like a chimney, so I would guess to say that the years of puffing away very well played a part in all of it...but, you can't sue yourself very well now can you???? And big corporations usually equate to deep pockets..... Need I say more? After this, I was told the practice of long hoods forward was stopped.

I would think that with desktop controls on modern locomotives only offered in the short hood forward position that this might contribute more towards the end of the practice in lieu of any other issue.

How about running F-units long hood forward? The Southern Railroad of NJ had a few F7's on their roster and they were reputably quite difficult to use in switching service.

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Originally posted by GG1 4877:
I would think that with desktop controls on modern locomotives only offered in the short hood forward position that this might contribute more towards the end of the practice in lieu of any other issue.

I have read here that the manufacturers have stopped installing desk top controls and are now installing the NS style vertical control stand to ease reverse moves.

The LIRR added wing-like smoke lifters to their Alco C-420s inorder to try to keep the exhaust out of the cabs when running long hood forward. There is some debate over the effectiveness of them, but they were included with the second order in 1968.



Close-up:


Stuart

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Originally posted by Southern Railway Sean:
Some of the Southern locomotive where set up for Long Hood forward operations and the control stands in the cab where flipped to prevent the engineer from running the locomotive from the fireman side of the cab. When operating a locomotive this way it could cause the engineer to miss a signal.

Not some - almost all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_hood

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When Southern Railway received their first EMD GP7s, they were delivered with a high, short hood, and Southern Railway pointed the locomotive LHF for crew safety . After the first GP7s hit the Southern Railway System, subsequent locomotives were ordered with the high, short hood and the long hood designated (starting after the SD45 order) as the front. Here is a list of each locomotive Southern ordered with a high, short hood, and operated LHF.

General Motors Electro-Motive Division

* GP7,
* GP9,
* GP18,
* GP38,
* GP38-2,
* GP40X (SOU 7000-7002),
* GP49 (SOU 4600-4605),
* GP50 (SOU 7003-7092),
* SD7,
* SD9,
* SD35,
* SD40,
* SD40-2,
* SD45

(note: the SD50 and the GP59 are the first units ordered with the low, short hood, and pointed LHF)

General Electric Transportation Systems

* B30-7,
* U23B,
* B23-7,
* U30C,
* U30B,
* U33C

The Norfolk and Western Railway (NW) operated as Southern Railway did, with the long hood toward the front; the only difference between NW locomotives and the Southern Railway locomotives was the position of the bell. NW had the bell on the short hood while Southern had the bell on the long hood.

It should also be noted that many early diesel locomotive builders designated the long hood end of their road switchers as the front. Examples include models manufactured by the American Locomotive Company and Baldwin Locomotive Works

In addition, if I remember correctly some EMD models (SD35s, GP35s, maybe others) were set up with dual control stands, enabling 'right side' operation in either orientation.

I don't remember Southern's ALCOs, but the few ALCO cabs I've been in were set up for long hood forward operation.

When I was growing up along the Southern, standard practice on the Crescent Division was to run specific groupings. Six-axle power practically always featured a pair of SD45s (pointed long hood forward) sandwiching either an SD35 or SD24. GP38s would operate in groups of four. GP30s (which were set up to operate short hood forward) and GP35s tended to be mixed, two of each in a consist. It was extremely rare to see GP38s running with GP30s or 35s, or a mix of 4-axle and 6-axle power.

Not coincidentally, this produced a steady 8000HP (GP38s) or 10,000HP (GP30/GP35, SDs) groupings.

SRS designated which end of locomotives were 'F' but the manufactures built the locomotives with the short hood forwaqrd. Specifically; SD-45's were designated to run long end as forward. EMD however had a different idea when constructing these locomotives: when operating the Traction Motor Cut-Out Switch located on the Engine Conmtrol Panel one had to understand that the #6 Traction Motor was at the front of the locomotive & the #1 TM was at the rear.

Can speak from first hand experience while "Serving the South" on the middle district of the CNO&TP in the early 70's any units we saw did not have dual controls. Specifically SD-24, SD-35, SD-40, SD-45, & the rare U-33C all were arranged for LHF but Control Stands adn Brake Valves were placed parallel to center line of locomotive with two Safety Pedals (one forward one back) so operation in either direction was easily accomplished account controls were never behind you. Only difference was you ran from the left side short hood forward and then right side long hood forward.

Account there were some (very few) locations that a wayside signal was not visible from the engineers seat when operating long hood forward, we did not communicate the Indication of signals. Their Aspect was communicated as "Bottom Green" "Middle Yellow" or "Flashing Green". This way an engineer did not have to rely on a Trainmans knowledge of Signal Indcation Names. The Aspect was communicated and the Engineer knew exactly what that meant.

As I recall, Fairbanks-Morse units were notorious for "white smoke", which I've been told is the result of incomplete combustion. Anyone out there have experience with this?

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Originally posted by Kent Loudon:
As I recall, Fairbanks-Morse units were notorious for "white smoke", which I've been told is the result of incomplete combustion. Anyone out there have experience with this?

I thought they were electing a new pope?

Stuart

How much longer will emd two cycle engines be able to run before the polution laws get them. Also how can all the alcos like the ones running out of Monet Missouri be able to run with the black soot. The ge,s that come through here are so quiet you can hardly hear them and do not seem to emit smoke at any time even when accelerations after the hill and curve. The old emd sd40-2s are farily smoke free but sure noisy when pulling a long grain train up hill.

What do the "polution laws" have to to with the EMD two stroke cycle engine, and why do you ask such a question?

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What do the "polution laws" have to to with the EMD two stroke cycle engine, and why do you ask such a question?

It is because when most people think of 2-cycle engines they think of the smelly smokey polluting chainsaws, weedwhackers, and old lawnmowers that burn oil mixed with gasoline for their lubrication needs. But as we know, big 2-cycle diesels that are blown or turbocharged, have exhaust valves at the top of cylinders instead of exhaust ports in the sides, and have the same pressurized lubrication systems as 4 cycle engines, are not the same animal at all and are capable of meeting the new emissions standards.

Wyhog

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The ge,s that come through here are so quiet you can hardly hear them and do not seem to emit smoke at any time even when accelerations after the hill and curve.

Don't let him fool you folks. Those GE's are just as noisey as anything else and like anything else can smoke with the best of 'em.

Modern GE's and EMDs (C44s, EC44s, SD70ACe's, etc) are not nearly as loud as SD40 era locos. No comparison. Not even close.

3-5 SD40s accelerating a train from a stop or grinding uphill at 12 mph are LOUD. They will shake the walls of buildings and you feel the noise as much as you hear it. I used to lay in my bed in the crew complex at Laurel, Montana and wonder if the TV was going to fall off the wall or the windows were going to shatter. Later locos don't even come close to that.

I used to walk up on a high ridge adjacent to my train in the siding at Lariat, WY when it was a nice day (or night) and I had to meet 3 or 4 trains there (once had a train order to take siding and meet Eleven westbounds there). From way up on the ridge I could hear the SD40s-SD45s, even U30Cs, roaring 15 miles away. Yes 15 miles! If it was a single train you could follow its progress by listening to the crossing whistling and by the operation of its locos. You first heard it in number 8 roaring by Big Corral as they got a run for Kendrick Hill up out of the Clear Creek valley. Then you heard them throttle down as they crested the ridge at Kendrick. Sometimes you could hear them whining in dynamic brake down to the Powder River bridge at Arvada. You heard them winding up in power again as they crossed the river and began climbing out of the river valley up to Malley's crossing. Then you heard them notch off and up and down a few notches to hold the speed limit coming across the last 4 or 5 miles to Lariat. As an experiment several years ago I tried that with trains having C44s. You can't hear them at all (except for the horns) until they are perhaps 3 miles away. The coyotes were sure howling though.

Wyhog

Those 567B's in the E8's weren't exactly quiet either. On summer nights with the windows open on the Jersey Shore you could hear the E8 miles sooner than the GP40Ps. When the F40PH's arrived they weren't exactly quiet, but only because the prime mover ran at full HP all the time for HEP until they got rebuilt later. They were still quieter though than anything else on the line until the catenary extended south ....

I thought the E8 had two 12-567C prime movers.

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the prime mover ran at full HP all the time for HEP

Um, shouldn't that be full RPM?

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Originally posted by Hot Water:
I thought the E8 had two 12-567C prime movers.

And they produced a signature, soothing yet authoritative sound as the two 567's worked together, but not in perfect synchronization. Wyhog's posting about listening as SD40-powered coal trains approached from a distance reminded me of old days before CTC on Cajon Pass, when we sometimes had to head in at Alray for UP 704 (UP No. 104 ran as 704 on ATSF trackage rights). The train would have 5 or 6 E8's and E9's. With up to a dozen V12's in Run-8 on a 2.2% grade, the sound was loud and authoritative -- anything but soothing. You could hear them as they left Cajon and curved around Sullivan's Curve, then grew louder as they emerged from the cut at Pine Lodge, and then they were making the horseshoe approaching the rear of our train, really putting out the decibels and making the maximum speed allowed there, 30 MPH. They roared past our head end, and then things instantly got quiet as they entered the tunnel and stuffed it full of cars behind them.

The big difference in sound between the 567C's in the E-units and the GP40's is the turbocharger.

There were no turbos in the E-units, so you were hearing the full-throated roar of a normally-aspirated 567in what David P. Morgan (long-time editor of Trains magazine) called "The 567 chant." Adding to the raw sound of the exhaust from those E's was the "beat" set up when the two 567's ran at slightly different RPM.

All the 35, 40 and 45-series locomotives are turbo-charged. As the exhaust gasses go through the turbo it acts as a muffler, quieting down that loud, raw exhaust note to a somewhat more mellow rumble.

Another point to be made about "exhaust sound/noise" is the number of exhaust stacks. For example, the early E units (say E3 thru E7, and FT) had FOUR exhaust stacks PER ENGINE, no mater whether 12 cyl or 16 cyl, and they could really "bark" in full throttle. Turbocharged EMD engines got a bit of exhaust "bark noise" softened by the turbo exhaust defusser and verticle duct. However, as horsepower increased and the Dash-2 series was introduced (1972)with the "higher fuel economy" E3B series 645 engines, exhaust silencers (mufflers) where a requirement (along with re-designed cooling fan & dynamic brake fan blades) inorder to reduce noise.

The loudest single locomotive EMD ever produced, in the modern era, was the UP DDA40X, with twin 645E3A, 3500 GROSS HP, and NO EXHAUST SILENCERS!!! Man you should have heard the 6936 roar outside the Engineering Building in preperation for the 1989 50th anniversary open house for the FT Demo. She had arrived with dead batteries and a full tank of fuel, so we decided to charge the batteries for a few hours on self load test! Quite cool!

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so you were hearing the full-throated roar of a normally-aspirated 567in

I wouldn't exactly call them "normally aspirated". After all, they have those big blowers on them to pressurize the intake system, just like a top fuel dragster.

And a question for Hot Water;
Why are EMD's known for an engine vibration in the second notch?

Well, no matter what YOU call them, EMD and the rest of the medium sized diesel engine industry calls them "normally aspirated". Since a two stroke cycle diesel engine will not work without scavenging air for the intake as well as "scavenging the exhaust gasses" out of the cylinder, it is referred to "normally aspirated". By the way, NHRA Top Fuel & Funny Car 500 cubic engines are four stroke cycle and are truely supercharged!

Throttle two, on a 16 cylinder happens to be pretty close to a critical vibration frequency combination of RPM, fireing order, and counter ballencing of the crankshaft & camshafts.

Canadian National and CN subsidiaries run long hood forward all the time. They have ditch lights on both ends of the Loco frames to be seen on the tracks in either direction.

Andrew

Falcon Service

Go to YouTube and type in the words "long hood forward" to see recent videos of that subject.

Andrew

I did see 6936 in Houston at the Amtrak Station on a UP special. It did sound LOUD. Now I know why!

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Well, no matter what YOU call them, EMD and the rest of the medium sized diesel engine industry calls them "normally aspirated".

I guess EMD and the rest of the industry doesn't understand the small fact that pressures over one atmosphere cannot be attained by normal means.

quote:

Originally posted by falconservice:
Canadian National and CN subsidiaries run long hood forward all the time. They have ditch lights on both ends of the Loco frames to be seen on the tracks in either direction.

Andrew

Falcon Service

Ditch lights in US practice came from Canada via Europe originally didn't they?

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I wouldn't exactly call them "normally aspirated". After all, they have those big blowers on them to pressurize the intake system, just like a top fuel dragster.

Jim your correct on that.

NHRA/IHRA defines normally aspirated as an engine with an air intake carburetor without assitance.Meaning no power adder such as blower or turbo.

To add fuel injection also means not normally aspirated.

Two stroke cycle, compression ignition internal combustion engines are NOT NHRA/IHRA!!!

Fellas, an EMD diesel with NO TURBOCHARGER is considered to be "normally aspirated."

Yes, I know they all have a Roots Blower on them to pressurize the air box, but in large, 2-stroke diesels this is considered normally aspirated because the engine will not run without the blower!

This is NOT the same thing as a 4-cycle gasoline engine running a big blower, as in a top fuel or funny car. It is definitely an "apples and oranges" comparison.

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Fellas, an EMD diesel with NO TURBOCHARGER is considered to be "normally aspirated." but in large, 2-stroke diesels this is considered normally aspirated because the engine will not run without the blower!

Collin,
Sounds like the road foreman mentality to me.

So Rich,
If it won't run without it, it must be something other than "normally aspirated".

And just to clarify my analogy, the blowers on the EMD engines look much like the blowers/superchagers on a dragster. That's all I meant, but, I will repeat that anything over one atmosphere of air pressure cannot be achieved by "normal" means. Leave it to the rail industry to make up their own definitions.