I find it unbelievable that two pilots for an hour and 18 minutes did not pay attention to ANYTHING in the cockpit...radio communications, audible warning alerts, etc. They have lost their license to fly and rightly so.

Imagine an Amtrak passenger train cab crew doing the same thing for that period of time, ignoring signals, whistles at crossings, speed control, dynamic brakes, and the list could go on. And what is the pay difference between an airline pilot and a train cab crew?

Good point, Mike. I was thinking the same thing.

Ed

Maybe they need a "Crew Call" that they have to flip every minute or so to keep the plane flying!

quote:

Originally posted by Big Jim:
Maybe they need a "Crew Call" that they have to flip every minute or so to keep the plane flying!

Now there's an incentive.

Keep hitting that alerter reset button...aka "Snooze alarm".

With all the technology in a modern commercial aircraft, the pilots are just there for show anyway. That Airbus could be programmed to fly itself and in most cases really does even on take off and landing. The pilot's just there in case the computer screws up.

Still 27,000 flight hours for the pilot and this? That I don't understand at all.

quote:

Still 27,000 flight hours for the pilot and this? That I don't understand at all.
Jonathan Peiffer
Modeling the NY&LB in Arizona

I do! It's called "Getting Cocky" on the job or Sedimetary employee. He really should have looked for another airline to fly for first. NOW he is screwed.. at least for the US.

How about a CREW CAM

What incident is in reference in this thread?

Andre Ming

They need a deadman whistle.

Come on, How many drivers on the road are asleep at the wheel?
They just got caught. They should have set an alarm.
Maybe it was carbondioxide that did it?
Who knows what goes on behind those doors.
Maybe they need a seat in the cockpit for kids to ride, They could repeat Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?

quote:

Originally posted by GG1 4877:
With all the technology in a modern commercial aircraft, the pilots are just there for show anyway. That Airbus could be programmed to fly itself and in most cases really does even on take off and landing. The pilot's just there in case the computer screws up.

As a high time commercial pilot myself, I can tell you that nothing could be further from the truth. There is NO WAY that a computer can make the moment-by-moment decisions that a human pilot has to make when flying an aircraft...even the latest state-of-the-art aircraft.

Take the most modern Airbus or Boeing, set them up for an autoland and tell the pilots to do nothing. What happens when a small aircraft pulls on to the runway just before the big plane lands? Someone has to recognize that and FLY the big airplane and do a go-around. That is just one of MANY decisions that absolutely require a human pilot. How about deviating around scattered thunderstorms? They don't all appear on radar or a stormscope, but all of them WILL beat you up pretty badly if you fly through them.

Regardless of what these pilots say after the fact...the real fact is that THEY WERE ASLEEP! If you actually believe they were engaged in a discussion about computer software or company policies or whatever, I have some ocean-front property in Kansas I want to sell you.

quote:

Maybe they need a "Crew Call" that they have to flip every minute or so to keep the plane flying!

Just so they don't malfunction in mid-air like the crew alerter I had last night did

I had 188 loads going to Portsmouth,Ohio,was in single track mp NA.15,when the (lead) unit's crew alerter set-up a penalty brake and brought me to a stop

I guess after talking to Mechanical Operations Center or M.O.C. ,that this sometimes happens when the alerter doesn't cycle correct,which is every 45 seconds when not in speed control.

So I placed the auto brake handle in suppression for about 20 seconds and reset the penalty.

Imagine if that would happen in mid-air at 33,000 feet !

quote:

What happens when a small aircraft pulls on to the runway just before the big plane lands? Someone has to recognize that and FLY the big airplane and do a go-around.

Amen! I actually had this happen to a flight I was on this summer. Landing into Newark in a 767 from Berlin, we were over the runway and about 50 feet off the ground when the engines spooled up and we did some evasive maneuvering. Of course the official line was "conflicting traffic", but whatever it was the pilot's quick thinking is what got us out of trouble.

As a controls engineer I'm all about automation, but completely removing the human element is almost always a recipe for disaster.

Have you ever heard the panic alarm in a Walmart? Hook that baby up to an alerter, if the sound had to have a human stop it, there would be some reaction.

I'd rig it so it sounded for a few minutes after it was hit, just to make sure everybody was awake. With the proper volume, there would be no one sleeping in the cockpit for sure.

Both pilots on computers for 91 minutes? I don't think so..there was no WFii up there! I'm with Rich..asleep!

Ed

Train crews do fall asleep too. Dan Ranger has written about it in trains if you want to read some scary stories.

About 15 years ago a BN crew headed eastbound through the Cascade tunnel took a little snooze. They woke up when they ran through the steel door at the East portal that keeps the fresh air blow into the tunnel from flowing right back out. The automatic mechanism that raises the door railed and they weren't awake to notice.

Fortunately someone working for the GN back in 1956 when the ventilation system was put in was smart enough to order a spare door and it was sitting in storage until it was needed.

Now there is a redundant door installed in front of the 1956 door.

I'm with Rich on airline pilots. Here is an Air Bus engineered disaster.

I never advocated removing the human element. When riding co-pilot position in the State of AZ aircraft many years ago, I saw what the pilot corrected for and what was done by automation. As with anything else, both are essential in this day and age.

While these pilots certainly acted improperly and deserve to loose their licenses, I would simply hold judgment until the FAA does their report.

78 minutes WITHOUT communication with the controllers, and NO military jets actually off the ground to check this out? The FAA and Homeland Security both have some explaining to do as well!

A military jet could have gotten close enough to see if the pilots were disabled OR sleeping!

quote:

Imagine if that would happen in mid-air at 33,000 feet !

I always thought that if Bugs Bunny could do it, anybody can.

I flew back into Pittsburgh on one of my western trips with a spare pilot in the seat next to me. He was very friendly and explain a lot of those weird noises that you hear as a passenger. Surprisingly, optimum efficient speed of one of these large birds is .8 mach (?? the speed of sound) So it's not like car or train speed is somewhere in terms of 400 to 500 miles per hour. So if they missed the airport by 150 miles, that's maybe 15 min. to 1/2 hr and then double back. Assuming that they should have contacted the airport 1/2 hr. on approach before landing may account for the time.

At Jackson Hole, WY there is a large screen TV showing commercial airplanes approach the airport and ETA for those waiting to pick someone up.

I would agree with Rich. On one approach into Denver a few trips back I saw thunder storms off to the left and it was choppy/bouncy. We did two large drops and then powered out, did a loop and landed west to east instead of from the east to west. I'm not sure how a computer would make that decision. I took it all in stride the lady in front of me was in a panic.

Gee, I always thought airplane pilots were looking out the window for birds, planes, UFOs and stuff that might get into the way.

I think I'll quit flying and take the train. At lease if we crash we'll be close to the ground, or relatively so.

Were they more than a mile high? If so, maybe they were joining the club....

Didn't a commercial Russian crew say there plane could fly itself and they let it land on it's own? The plane slammed into the ground killing everyone. The pilot had blindfolded himself. (or was this a wisetail I heard)

Personaly with the rule the RR's follow, you would think the Airlines would be just as tuff if not worse. I guess they then a pilot could swerve if he had to miss something. Look at how many people almost got killed.

Jamie

I must admit that I am surprised that the airline industry allows pilots to use laptop computers while flying. Heaven forbid a train crew getting caught using a laptop or a cell phone while the train is in motion.