Took me a while to see what he was talking about, as well. I see the potential for a problem. Had to go back through the thread and links more closely.

Glad you can take some readings.

Well, I was able to figure out which way the plug should be plugged in so that the negative, common or ground is correct, at the alligator clip lead. I tried to measure the output at the screen but all I get is static, slight amount of electrical current that jumps out to your finger and to the probe. It feels a little more than a 9 volt battery would, a slight tingle, so I think it is like Vulcan stated, only 12 volts.

The needle moved on my volt meter but it stayed in the same position no matter what the setting, I tried it with the plug either way and I got the same results. I was able to touch the alligator clip end with no results and the screen end with a very minor tingle, like static electricity either way the plug was plugged in.

I still believe under the right circumstances if not wired correctly bad things could happen but to me it seems that as long as the black wire is connected to the wide spade side of the plug there should be no problems.


Paul

Your correct that the black wire should be connected to the wide spade, but it's a weird color configuation. The hot wires in the wall are black. With this unit the black wire is the common. It could cause a problem to the casual electrician.

I took the gizzmo to work with me today and had one of my technicians take a look at it this morning, I work at a Chevy dealership in the service department. He was able to measure it with his Fluke and found it had an output of 25 volts A/C and 325 volts D/C. He is still trying to figure out how to measure the amps but he thinks they are way under 1. I will post later the results, if any.

On side note, I took a look at my receptacles around the house, on the advise of Paul Leber, to make sure they were wired correctly. I pulled the covers off and looked at each side to make sure that the white wire was connected to the receptacle side that had silver screws and the black wire was connected to the side with the brass colored screws, which they were. The wire colors of the negative ion generator are opposite of the standard black hot and white neural. So, now I have no fears that I will accidentally electrocute myself.

If you wanted you could use a grounded plug with three prongs and connect the pigtail with the alligator clip to the green ground wire instead of the black on on the generator taking out any possibility of getting shocked. Here is a copy of the link: Here is a copy of the link http://www.swansontec.com/sionizer.htm

Thank you for your time Paul!!

Mine works fine the way it is and since I'm not selling it or letting anyone else use it, I am going to leave it and use it the way it is.


Paul

When dealing with AC voltage, the dominant color is Hot. So Black (or Brown) is Hot and White (or Blue) is Neutral and Green (or Green/Yellow) is Protective Earth.

With DC voltage, black is often associated with ground (or common). High Voltage is often associated with Red or Orange. In the case of this Generator, the high voltage is DC, so it makes sense that the common-side is Black, and the High Voltage wire is Red.

BTW, instead of opening-up your outlets to check your house wiring, I would recommend investing in an Receptacle Tester (AKA "Outlet Checker"). They're only a few dollars, and they indicate wiring issues instantly.

After thinking about it further you could probably disconnect the lead with the alligator clip from the unit all together and connect it to a metal water pipe in the house and use it as a ground instead. It will be grounded the same way as the rest of the house and separate yourself from the circuit completely. That would be the safest way to use the gizzmo powered by A/C. I will try it later tonight and post my findings.

Thanks again Paul.

Paul

quote:

The wire colors of the negative ion generator are opposite of the standard black hot and white neural.

I'm not sure that the statement is correct. My doubts arise because the picture provided at http://www.swansontec.com/sionizer.htm shows that the black AC input wire is fused and is connected to the black lead of the device. Since it is only safe to put a fuse on the hot side of a circuit, if Swansontec is following correct practice, I'd conclude that Swansontec believes the black is the hot lead.

quote:

Originally posted by hookedontrains:

quote:

The wire colors of the negative ion generator are opposite of the standard black hot and white neural.

I'm not sure that the statement is correct. My doubts arise because the picture provided at http://www.swansontec.com/sionizer.htm shows that the black AC input wire is fused and is connected to the black lead of the device. Since it is only safe to put a fuse on the hot side of a circuit, if Swansontec is following correct practice, I'd conclude that Swansontec believes the black is the hot lead.

The way that the video and building instructions at the beginning of the thread show the device with a red and a black input wires and using the black wire as the common wire is misleading because it is a D/C unit, that is what I was referencing as opposite. Sorry for the confusion.

If you do not connect the alligator clipped lead to the unit and use the wiring illustration in the link I provided above, ground your work it to a water pipe in the house instead, this should remove the potential of getting shocked while using the device.

Paul

quote:

If you do not connect the alligator clipped lead to the unit and use the wiring illustration in the link I provided above, ground your work it to a water pipe in the house instead, this should remove the potential of getting shocked while using the device.

This is precisely what http://www.swansontec.com/sionizer.htm recommended early on. See my May 27 7:48 PM post and those following.

The lessons to be learned here, if there are any, is that 1) it's best to avoid messing directly with household line AC voltages if you can and 2)just because something works, doesn't mean it's safe.

Hooked has a valid point. He wasn't talking about the output he was talking about the input. If you wire the alligator clip to the line cord and plug it in so that the alligator clip is now on the hot line and say touched a water pipe you would get shocked. With the AC model I like the idea of running a 3 wire cord from the plug to the unit. Hook the alligator clip to the ground prong.

This looks like a good tool and I gotta get working on it.

Gene Anstine

quote:

Originally posted by hookedontrains:
The lessons to be learned here, if there are any, is that 1) it's best to avoid messing directly with household line AC voltages if you can and 2)just because something works, doesn't mean it's safe.

I agree, well said.

Paul

Well, I built mine, but the 4 oz container is a flimsy Glad brand. I am having a lot of trouble finding a Rubbermaid round 4 oz container. all I see are square ones. Anyone have a clue how to get round ones.

BTW, I put an on-off switch on it with an "on" light indicator just for safety's sake. yOU DO HAVE TO WIRE THE COMMON (WHITE) WIRE TO THE SWITCH TO MAKE THE LIGHT WORK.(Darn that cap button)!) The 120 volt one comes with the inputs in black and white so there's no confusion about polarity. THE WIRE TO THE SCREEN IS RED. It's pretty heavy and wants to push the screen out.

quote:

Originally posted by ajzend:
Well, I built mine, but the 4 oz container is a flimsy Glad brand. I am having a lot of trouble finding a Rubbermaid round 4 oz container. all I see are square ones. Anyone have a clue how to get round ones.

I'm pretty sure they carry them at Walmart, you may have to buy a pack of 4 to get them though. Have you tried it yet and if so what do you think of it?

Paul

quote:

Originally posted by Serows1:

quote:

Originally posted by ajzend:
Well, I built mine, but the 4 oz container is a flimsy Glad brand. I am having a lot of trouble finding a Rubbermaid round 4 oz container. all I see are square ones. Anyone have a clue how to get round ones.

I'm pretty sure they carry them at Walmart, you may have to buy a pack of 4 to get them though. Have you tried it yet and if so what do you think of it?

Paul

Only square ones at Chinamart. I'm going to try and reduce my 1 1/2" pipe down to 1' TO TRY AND MAKE IT FIT THE SQUARE ONE. (Darn caps button again)

Well, I actually got the square one to accept the round 1 1/2" test cap. It wasn't hard at all. I'm having some head scratching, though, on how to get the screen attached to the Rubbermaid container cap. I thought of sewing it on with a carpet needle. Any thoughts? Thanks.

I think that I'm starting to talk to myself here. I did sew the screen to a hole in the Rubbermaind container cap. I used Dacron fishing line. I then hot glued around the edges of the screen to stop the aluminum screen from unraveling.

Are you using metal screen? A small amount of hot glue should hold the screen in place. Have you tested it yet?

Paul

quote:

Originally posted by Serows1:
Are you using metal screen? A small amount of hot glue should hold the screen in place. Have you tested it yet?

Paul

I did use an aluminum screen. I haven't tested it on static grass yet, but the alligator clip and screen generate a spark between them. I liked the sewing option because the spaded wire wants to push the screen outwards. The screen is now taut and firmly in place. Maybe the spade wire is stiffer on the 120 V generator as opposed to the 12V one. It does come with a plastic sheath around the wire which really stiffens it. I did slip this off of the wire so that it wouldn't push out so hard. If someone can tell me why that plastic sheath is needed I'd put it back on. I figure that it came that way for a reason, but the wire itself is well insulated.

quote:

Originally posted by ajzend:
If someone can tell me why that plastic sheath is needed I'd put it back on. I figure that it came that way for a reason, but the wire itself is well insulated.

I left mine on, I'm not sure why it's there either. Maybe when it was manufactured the intended device required it to be there for a fan or heating element.


Paul

I just completed my Grassinator. Home Depot has a 2" diameter "clear can" used for storing bolts and screws that has an unscrew cap that I used for the housing.

I have the 120V volt unit. I use shrink tubing to insulate all the connections points.

When using the unit I noticed that some of the taller grass is now inside the unit. Have I reversed something? The grass on the glued surface looks fine.

quote:

Originally posted by AlanRail:
When using the unit I noticed that some of the taller grass is now inside the unit. Have I reversed something? The grass on the glued surface looks fine.

My unit acts like a magnet and picks up unglued grass, I usually wave it over the area to pick up the unglued blades after the glue is set up.

I did notice that there is a small amount that managed to get into the unit tube and are hanging around but I think it's because when the unit is shut off the plastic tube may still have a static charge to it that draws them in.

Did you seal the tube off from the grass chamber?

Paul

Paul

Grass Chamber??

quote:

Originally posted by AlanRail:
Paul

Grass Chamber??

I hope I am not making this more difficult than it should be....

The tube connects to the chamber or container, I cut a hole in the bottom of the container and used duct tape to connect it. The directions called for gluing an inspection cap on both ends of the tube and drilling a small hole in the container end to feed the wire though that makes contact with the screen on the cap. I could not find any inspection caps so I used duct tape to close off the tube.

Are you getting grass in the tube?

Paul

Paul

I appreciate your help I will try to submit some photos but the weather here in Chicago is abysmal and I am babysitting three sump pumps: Moe, Larry and Curly.

So give me a chance to do this

Alan

My grassinator using a Home Depot Clear Can that is about 2" in diameter.

I drilled out the one fixed end for the mesh and epoxied that back into the hole; the button end is removable.









CLOSE UP SHOWING GRASS IN CHAMBER??

I think I'll try the styrofoam board method, I still have a lot of hair-and two cats.

John

Alan, I see from your design that you do not have a separate grass chamber or container but it should work just fine regardless. I also have some grass that remains in the chamber afterwards, I think it's because of the static charge the plastic has but it really isn't enough to worry about. When it builds up I just vacuum it all out. Have fun with it, I know it makes a big difference with my scenery.

Paul

Paul

Thanks. So the orientation of the plug in the outlet doesn't change the polarity of the mesh to the alligator clip end at the grass medium. I'm not causing the grass to go upward due to a polarity reversal.

After turning off, the static charge remains in the wire unless you discharge (short-out) the mesh with the alligator clip. Correct?

quote:

Originally posted by AlanRail:
Paul

Thanks. So the orientation of the plug in the outlet doesn't change the polarity of the mesh to the alligator clip end at the grass medium. I'm not causing the grass to go upward due to a polarity reversal.

Be careful with the orientation of the plug, you don't want it plugged in the wrong way creating a hazard by making the ground, alligator clip, hot.

quote:

After turning off, the static charge remains in the wire unless you discharge (short-out) the mesh with the alligator clip. Correct?

I have not tried that but it sounds like it should work.

Paul

It Works! It Works!
Due to this forum I was able to successfully built the negative ionic generator for a fraction of its retail price. And now that I got the materials it actually works just like to demo video. I used the 120 volt 7.5 KV generator. I don't know if the 12V 15KV would have worked better, but I'm pretty darn happy with my results.
I did leave off the plastic tubing going to the spaded lead with no appearant problems.
Is there a cheap way to make matte medium or should I just shut up and use the concentrate that I bought. It really wasn't that expensive.

quote:

Originally posted by ajzend:
It Works! It Works!
Due to this forum I was able to successfully built the negative ionic generator for a fraction of its retail price. And now that I got the materials it actually works just like to demo video. I used the 120 volt 7.5 KV generator. I don't know if the 12V 15KV would have worked better, but I'm pretty darn happy with my results.
I did leave off the plastic tubing going to the spaded lead with no appearant problems.
Is there a cheap way to make matte medium or should I just shut up and use the concentrate that I bought. It really wasn't that expensive.

I buy Liquitex brand Matte Medium in pint size jars from Michaels and cut it 3 to 1 with plain water...works just like the concentrates and is a somewhat less expensive.

Bob

quote:

I buy Liquitex brand Matte Medium in pint size jars from Michaels and cut it 3 to 1 with plain water...works just like the concentrates and is a somewhat less expensive.

Bob

Thanks, Bob.
Alan

quote:

Originally posted by ajzend:
Is there a cheap way to make matte medium or should I just shut up and use the concentrate that I bought. It really wasn't that expensive.

I use a 50/50 mix of Elmer's glue and water. I bought a gallon bottle of Elmer's glue at Office Max a few months ago for around $15.00, that should last me a long time.

Congratulations on successfully building your grassinator, they really make a huge difference with scenery.

Paul

quote:

Originally posted by Serows1:

quote:

Originally posted by ajzend:
Is there a cheap way to make matte medium or should I just shut up and use the concentrate that I bought. It really wasn't that expensive.

I use a 50/50 mix of Elmer's glue and water. I bought a gallon bottle of Elmer's glue at Office Max a few months ago for around $15.00, that should last me a long time.

Congratulations on successfully building your grassinator, they really make a huge difference with scenery.

Paul

Paul,
I really have to thank you for getting this thread started and getting me going.
Alan

quote:

Originally posted by ajzend:
Paul,
I really have to thank you for getting this thread started and getting me going.
Alan

Alan,
I did not start this thread but I had an interest in it because I was at the stage in contruction where a grassinator would make a huge difference. After I built it I was so happy with the results and it was so easy I wanted to express to everyone my experiences.

I have taken allot from the forum, so many members have helped me over the last year that I wanted to give a little back. I am not an expert by any means, I feel I am a common man with limited resources and limited knowledge of the hobby, so whenever I can give I want to help.

Paul

Actually the guys behind the nifty website which provided instructions to us all to build the successful knockoff deserve a tip of our collective hats. But Pauls right, sharing is what we do best, growing a population of happy model railraoders.

Bob

Just to make things even easier there is a you tube video showing how to make one of these using an electric fly swatter that could be purchased at wallmart. I think it is alittle weaker than the one made from the instructions at the beginning of the thread.

I finally built my grassinator tonight. I just tried it out and I could tell already that this is going to add a whole other dimension to my scenery. I will be sure to post my pictures once I get some scenery done with it. Just in time as im working on an area that has alot of flat ground too. I built 2 of them so I have an extra in case anyone is interested.

ya stevie how much? bobby

I would be interested in one . Address in profile . Thanks , Bob

I'm curious about the ion generator discussion throughout this thread...

The original Grassinator info through Ztrains speaks of an alternate source of the DC ion generator...Oatley Electronics of Australia. Yet, no one has referenced its use throughout the thread.

I went to Oatley's website. They have both style A and B in stock...each at $10.40 USD, about $23.00 with international shipping. Seems like it would be the logical SAFE choice. Do we have something against buying electronics from our Australian friends? I was all set to order from them...thought I'd check this thread first.

So, what's your thoughts??

KD

This message has been edited. Last edited by: dkdkrd,

KD, I never looked elsewhere when I was building mine, I just figured the AC unit would work just as well as the DC unit. Your right, if I were to build these things to sell, I would use the DC units available from Oatley Electronics and use 2 D cell batteries to power the unit. Good luck.

Paul

Im not positive but I think I heard that the dc version wouldn't be as strong. There is a video on you tube of a guy making one out of an electric fly swatter and he mentions it not working as well as the ac version if I remember correctly.
Since using and experimenting with it. I want to try some variations that I think would make the process of adding static grass easier. I was thinking of extending the wire that touches the screen so that the grass holding cup could be held sperately from the actual base with the ion generator in it. Then I could make different size cups that could be used to work in tight areas like close to structures. What do you think?

As long as you don't start licking the screen or using it for amoral purposes, when plugged in you will be Okay.

That sounds like a great idea Stevin. That would make getting into tight area's allot easier. If you install a plug in jack on the bottom of the containers you could exchange containers in a snap. That would make it so much easier to change colors and lengths of the static grass along with sizes of containers. You could also use the containers as storage too by just replacing the lids.

Paul

I like that Paul, I wasn't even thinking about that. I was just going to unhook the wire from the screen and slide it through the bottom everytime I wanted to switch containers. Thanks for the idea. I can't believe what these things are going for. I just seen one today in the other magazine for 250 dollars!!!!

I just tried building it like I was talking about and it's not working. The grass is just falling flat on the glue. I put a meter one lead to the screen at the end of the jar and the other lead to the alligator clip that gets the nail. Im not getting a reading. Is it possible I have a faulty ion generator?

Has anyone ever used the NOCH GRAS-MASTER STATIC GRASS APPLICATOR? The have it at Micromart for 159.00. I was thinking of ordering it.

This is a link to it if anyone is interested.

http://www.micromark.com/NOCH-...APPLICATOR,9293.html

Thanks

Gary

GM, your question is what started this thread (see top of page 1)

I was just reading a Lou Sassi book on scenery. In it he refers to scenic flock used to mimic grass (as these static applicators are designed to do). But rather than using the Grassinator or the DIY version, the flock manufacturer suggested wrapping magnetic material around the plastic container, shaking the container vigorously to generate a static charge, and then shaking it out onto the glue. Has anyone tried this method?