I am curious about the product static grass by scenic express. Has anyone used this product? If so how is it applied and do you have any pictures to share. Another thing I am curious about is the tool that is used to make the grass static charged, could you use alternative methods to get this result, instead of using their 200 dollar tool?

There you go. I built this unit and use it with much success.

http://www.ztrains.com/pages/t...tor/grassinator.html

Bob

Thanks for the link Bob. Now that I've seen how that gizmo works I am going to build one and give it a try.

Paul

quote:

Originally posted by Serows1:
Thanks for the link Bob. Now that I've seen how that gizmo works I am going to build one and give it a try.

Paul

Hey, whats he mean by that!

Hey Paul, Here's a link to a good tutorial on the subject.And here's a video of on in action. Good luck

Gizzmo

quote:

Originally posted by Serows1:
Thanks for the link Bob. Now that I've seen how that gizmo works I am going to build one and give it a try.

Paul

Paul good luck with the build. This device turns out pretty good and after a little time spent in getting use to it, I feel it definitely adds a realistic touch. You can see the effect of the static grass I've blended into this scene for example. I shows up with a nice subtle stance.

Bob

Bob, your scene looks awesome!! What size flock did you use, 4mm? You blended the grass is very well, thats the look I want, not one technique overpowering the rest. Very nice!! I will post my progress once I get the "gizzmo" working. I had to order the 110vac model negative ion generator instead of the 12vdc model, they no longer carry it, and the output is lower at 7.5kv instead of 12.0kv, so I'm not sure how well it will work. I'm hoping it will be just as successful. We'll see

Paul

Serows1,

Please post back when you get yours working. I too planned on making that gadget -- the higher output generator no longer being available is a disappointment.

Paul...Thanks! I used 2 & 6 mm mixed together actually. I'm just trying various materials and techniques as I go along really. But I'm after scenesthat appear natural, and I sure didn't want a front lawn look either. I add the static grass treatment at the very end of a scenery session. I do this after applying all the rest of the scenic materials to a relatively small section of say maybe a square foot or even less. Then still soaking wet with matte medium I have the grassinator ready to use all filled up and plugged in so as not to be scrambling around looking for things while the glue soaks in and becomes less useful. Handled this way,it works fine for me so far. I consider it an accent rather than the main focus. Good luck with the new ion gen...hopefully it will do just as good as mine.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Gizzmo:

quote:

Originally posted by Serows1:
Thanks for the link Bob. Now that I've seen how that gizmo works I am going to build one and give it a try.

Paul

Hey, whats he mean by that!

Gizzmo

I'm sure it was a simple oversite, missing the second z in Gizzmo.

That was a great how to video! I was contemplating using static grass, but was unsure of the outcome, and price of the machine, was a deterrent...but now definately in the plans!

Kurt

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kpolak,

Well, I built the "gizzmo" thanks to Bob's link. I had to make a few changes in the design like I could not get the 12v dc negative ion generator I had to use the 110v ac unit which is nearly identical except the output is only 7.5kv instead of 12.0kv but I could not tell the difference. Also I could not fine 1 1/2" inspection plugs to cap the ends of the tube so I glued a regular cap on one end for the on/off switch and duct taped the other end to attach the static grass container.

It works really great but I need to get the taller and darker grass, the only static grass I could find locally was medium green and it is too light compared to the rest of the area I have already finished, I plan to use it like Bob did as a finisher. I'll post pictures once I get some darker grass down. Thanks again Bob for the inspiration and guidance. Total cost including shipping was $22.59!!

Paul

Hi Paul,

I'm very happy you actually build this unit and are having success with it too. I too had to search for a better selection of static grasses and eventually bought some from Scenic Express at Springfield. This is a nice additon to a scenery builders tool box, and I know you will enjoy adding that special effect ...yes pictures please.

Bob

SEROWS1,
Thanks for the update! I'm glad it worked out, even though the higher-output generator is no longer available.

Okay, I finally picked up some darker and longer grass to try again. It turned out so well I decided to lightly apply a combination of 2mm, 4mm, and 6mm grasses, with colors varing from spring, summer, and medium green all mixed together to all of the already finished grass areas of my mountain as a finisher and it turned out really well.


I took a few pictures of the "gizzmo", I did use duct tape to attach the bowl to the cylinder because I could not find any 1 1/2 inch inspection caps and made the negative lead much longer, 6 feet, than the instructions stated because it looked like it would be easier to maneuver around with some extra slack.







Here are a couple of shots of the mountain and some close ups of the standing grass. I only applied the static grass lightly to give it some depth, I already had a finished base of fine ground foam.












If your hesitant to try it, trust me, it is just as easy as the video stated and really adds realism to scenery.

Paul

I have to try that! It looks awesome.

That looks great. So you bought the 120VAC (7.5kV Output) Negative Ion Generator Item Number : G1783? I see it's on sale for only $3.95!

Here is a quick hook up in case anyone fears the 120V

http://www.swansontec.com/sionizer.htm

Dan, I did buy the 120VAC (7.5kV Output) Negative Ion Generator Item Number : G1783 and it was easy to hook up. The negative ion generator comes with 3 wires, white, black, and red with an ion emmiter attached. The red wire with the ion emitter goes to the screen that the grass falls through. The black wire is attached to one end on the power cord and to the tail wire with the alligator clip. The white wire is attached to the on/off switch, the other wire of the power cord is attached to the other connector on the on/off switch.

It looked scary but I realized it's not like I am grabbing both ends of the power cord, the generator is between you and the cord. I am not an electrican so I do not know how safe it is. I would not recommend grabbing the aligator clip and touching the screen at the same time, I don't know what would happen, it may be nothing but it also may hurt ALLOT. All I know is that I did use caution not to let the screen touch the wet areas that the alligator clip was plugged into and I had no problems. The unit did not get hot and seemed to act pretty harmless, I had it on for almost 45 minutes. It made no noises and when I turned it on I could not tell it was on other that the marks I put on the switch and when you wave it about an inch over the grass all of the grass stand up straighter and follow it. It also picks up the unglued grass too so clean up was easy.

Paul

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Serows1,

Threads like this one make me regret not having a permanent layout! Maybe some day.

Thanks Paul and your scene is equally as "awesome" as flangers'. Both are awesome!

walt

quote:

Originally posted by Serows1:
Dan, I did buy the 120VAC (7.5kV Output)
Paul

Thanks for the info. I need a $10 minimum order and with this on sale I'll have to see what else I need. The shipping is three times higher then the cost of the Generator

I was looking at the $150 READY-MADE NOCH VERSION in Micro-Mark (Spring 2009)

But thanks you guys for showing me the light.

I found a Clear Can for $2.00 (used for storing bolts etc.)at Home Depot that has a removable top. So I drilled a 2" hole in the non-removable end for the screen.

Once I get the other parts together I'll post.

thanks again for saving me $130.00

I originally built mine following the instructions precisely, but any number of variation can be applied if the exact items are not available...at least as far as the jar, and caps and even the metal screening can vary in hole size since the longer static grass seems to like a larger opening to filter through. Good luck to all who decide to build one, you will not regret it.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by railroad-guy:
Thanks for the info. I need a $10 minimum order and with this on sale I'll have to see what else I need. The shipping is three times higher then the cost of the Generator

Dan,

I know what you mean, my whole order was only $8.00 and shiping was $8.95 so I added some switches and things to get over the $10.00 mark.

Paul

"Paul good luck with the build. This device turns out pretty good and after a little time spent in getting use to it, I feel it definitely adds a realistic touch. You can see the effect of the static grass I've blended into this scene for example. I shows up with a nice subtle stance."

Bob

Bob

In addition to the realistic grass, I like the fence also. Now you need a few bits of white paper to dot the grass, like what we have on the tracks in NJ, a few cigarette butts also.... What about the dog and the trespasser? The train crew is going to cringe

Nice scenery!

Prairie

"STATIC ELECTRICITY" is this safe around our $1000 locos? Sounds scary! Any thoughts on this? Is it safe?

I don't think that anyone would leave any engines or other electronic-based equipment anywhere near the layout while using one of these grass zappers. Pacemaker alert also!

Excellent results, guys. Something else to check out and experiment with.

Jim

Jim, I use mine without any special preparations regarding my locomotives etc...but tell me what your referring too. If there is a concern I'd like to know more about it please.

Thanks

Bob

The static charge is only temporary, while the grass is being applied. No more of a concern than putting a glue/water mix on the track for ballast. You don't do it while your running trains.

If I'm not mistaken, there's electricity in the track, as well.


BTW, Paul, it does look great. But it reminds me I have mowing to do!

I'm not usually an alarmist. In fact, I usually get a kick out of the concerns that many on the forum express about the simplest things.

But, when it comes to static electricity and electronics, some precautions shouldn't be overlooked. We are always (and rightly) cautioned about touching a grounded object before working on circuit boards (computer and train varieties). It's SOP for technicians. In fact, grounding straps to be worn on the wrist are available. This is all to prevent damage from that slight charge that builds up walking across the carpet; you know, the one you had right before you used to touch the tip of your little sister's nose with your fingertip.

I would have to think that the charge produced here is at least in the same category. The high voltage, low current charge produced is nothing like normal track voltage.

But what do I know about static electricity! Whenever I got the Van DeGraff generator out for demonstations in my science classes, I could never get it to make the hair on the top of my head to stand up. Darn thing must have been broken! (The things I say just to give Vulcan an opening!)

Jim

Jim, I'd say, at least once you forgot the wrist grounding strap.

Ever singed a chicken?

While the gizmo to produce static electricity to make the static grass stand up is great... I use a simple, non-technical method.

Take a small piece of foam board (blue or orange insulation stuff), rub it against the hair on my head to create a static charge, and then hold it close to the static grass that I just put down. You know it works when you get some of the static grass to come up and land on the foam board. Works great and costs nothing!

That won't work for Jim or I. Any other body hair work?

So many things I could say.... but better not

CHESSIE said to"...rub it against the hair on my head ." Couldn' t resist . Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Vulcan:
That won't work for Jim or I.

It's why I have a golden retriever for a pet.

Jim

Sorry about making the assumption that everyone had hair on their head. I guess that is why they invented the static generating gizmo. lol

quote:

Originally posted by wsdimenna:
Paul,
Very nice build. If you make a few extra I'll buy one.

Bill D

I`d like to second that, if you make some put me down for one even with the shipping to the UK it would be cheaper than the shop made ones
James

Frankly I'm surprised that several people want one and are willing to buy it from someone whose build one. Why not make one yourself? The link I posted at the begining of this thread was what inspired Paul to build his, and I'm sure he will attest to it's relative ease of construction. It was for me as well and so I encourage anyone who wants one to follow those simple directions and build it yourself. Your a Model Railroader afterall, and building things is what we do...

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by flanger:
Frankly I'm surprised that several people want one and are willing to buy it from someone whose build one. Why not make one yourself? The link I posted at the beginning of this thread was what inspired Paul to build his, and I'm sure he will attest to it's relative ease of construction. It was for me as well and so I encourage anyone who wants one to follow those simple directions and build it yourself. Your a Model Railroader after all, and building things is what we do...

Bob

I have to agree with you Bob making this only took about ten minutes once I had all of the materials. The hardest thing for me was trying to find the 1 1/2 inch inspection caps which I found none. I already had a 1 1/2 inch plastic pipe from my basement remodel, metal screen and the plastic storage container. I purchased the negative ion generator, the on/off switch, the power cord, and an assortment of alligator clips on line from Electronic Goldmine.

It was super easy, I still can't believe they charge so much for these things, it cost less than $25.00 including $8.95 shipping to build. Even if I had to buy the things I already had on hand it would have cost maybe an additional $15.00.

I want to encourage anyone interested in building one to give it a try and if you have any questions please post here or drop me an email, it's listed in my profile.

Paul

quote:

Originally posted by flanger:
Frankly I'm surprised that several people want one and are willing to buy it from someone whose build one. Why not make one yourself? The link I posted at the begining of this thread was what inspired Paul to build his, and I'm sure he will attest to it's relative ease of construction. It was for me as well and so I encourage anyone who wants one to follow those simple directions and build it yourself. Your a Model Railroader afterall, and building things is what we do...

Bob

The reason I asked is the problem getting the bits over here in the UK, have tried to google them but came up zero.
James

Just to be on the safe side, could someone who is appropriately informed in matters electrical provide a wiring diagram indicating how the ground lead (aligator clip lead) should be attached when the 120V AC version of the negative ion generator is used to make the static grass applicator.

I ask because I'm confused by what appear to be contradictory descriptions/explanations offered in this thread.
.

In a May 15 post, railroad-guy directed readers to the following thread: :http://www.swansontec.com/sionizer.htm. It describes the red wire as the DC negative output (to be attached to the screen) and the 120 V white AC input wire as doubling as the positive DC output. He suggests, therefore, that the household ground wire (green or bare I presume) be used as the positive terminal (aligator clip lead)rather than the white wire.

The line diagram provided by Sawsontec appears to indicate the the 120 V input side is isolated (as with a transformer) from the DC output side. Immediately below the line diagram is a photo; it does not show the aligator clip Positive lead, although it does appear to show a fuse on the black AC input line.

So far so good, but Serows1 in a May 16 post offers a different explanation and set up. He states that the input 120
v AC black wire is the common and should be attached to the alligator clip. He also describes the red wire as 'hot.' I'm confused.

I have been taught that the black wire is the 'hot side' and white the neutral in typical house wiring. Thus, if one were to use the AC side as a route to earth ground, wouldn't it be through the white, not the black wire? In fact, the Swansontec page suggests that white, although it eventually goes to earth ground, could "electrocute" you if you use it as the positive terminal.

Thus, I seek clarification. Any help would be appreciated.

quote:

Originally posted by hookedontrains:
So far so good, but Serows1 in a May 16 post offers a different explanation and set up. He states that the input 120
v AC black wire is the common and should be attached to the alligator clip. He also describes the red wire as 'hot.' I'm confused.

I have been taught that the black wire is the 'hot side' and white the neutral in typical house wiring. Thus, if one were to use the AC side as a route to earth ground, wouldn't it be through the white, not the black wire? In fact, the Swansontec page suggests that white, although it eventually goes to earth ground, could "electrocute" you if you use it as the positive terminal.

Thus, I seek clarification. Any help would be appreciated.

Sorry if I confused you, I should not have used the terms neutral or hot. Instead, I should have used the wire colors. With that said I followed the directions exactly from the site that was posted above: http://www.ztrains.com/pages/t...tor/grassinator.html .

I connected the white wire from the negative ion generator to one side of an on/off switch, the other switch connection was connected to one lead of the power cord. The other lead of the power cord was connected to the black wire of the negative ion generator AND the lead with the alligator clip. The red wire, with the ion emitter attached to it, I cut off the emitter and crimped a spade connector so it will make contact with the screen on the end of the gizzmo. The power cord that I received from Electronic Goldmine website is a regular one, it can be plugged into the wall either way and it works every time no matter which way I have it plugged in. I hope this clears up any mistakes that I made in my previous post and I apologize for any confusion.

Paul

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Serows1,

In response to my question, Serows1 (Paul) wrote, " Sorry if I confused you...I should have used the wire colors."

I'm confused, not because of what Serows1 wrote, but because the suggestions he offered differed from those given on the Swansontech site.

In light of Serow1's response, it seems likely that at least some part of my confusion may arise from the fact that the colors of the wires attached to the generators that Serows1 and I have differ. The 120 V AC, 7.5kV ion generators (G1783) that I received from the Electronic Goldmine today, have 3 wires: i) a red wire that is attached to the generator output tip, ii) a white wire and iii) a short black wire. Both the white and black wires (which I assume are the AC input leads) enter the generator body at the same location; the red emitter wire leaves generator at its opposite end.

My generators appear to be identical to the version of the product that appears in the photo on the Swansontec site.

By the way, the 12 volt DC generator formerly sold by Electronic Goldmine but no longer available, a photo of which appears on the web page Serows1 referenced (racooke.com/images/HOW%20TO/Static/Making%20a%20Static%20Grass%20Applicator.pdf )has two red and one black wire. Evidently, the wiring on that 12 v DC generator has the same colored wires as the AC 120 v generator Serows1 received.


At this point, I'm still unsure what is the preferred way to go, but given the fact that Swanson's approach appears to isolate the user from the 120V AC input source, I'll build a unit using his strategy (i.e., fusing the hot side of the AC input and attaching the positive alligator wire to the house earth ground.

I'll update the board with my results, if any. In the meantime, if anyone knows more, please let me know.

quote:

Originally posted by hookedontrains

At this point, I'm still unsure what is the preferred way to go, but given the fact that Swanson's approach appears to isolate the user from the 120V AC input source, I'll build a unit using his strategy (i.e., fusing the hot side of the AC input and attaching the positive alligator wire to the house earth ground.

I'll update the board with my results, if any. In the meantime, if anyone knows more, please let me know.

I don't think it matters which side is which because my power cord is reversible, I can plug it in either way like the old cords, and it works no matter which way it is plugged in.

After taking mine apart partially and inspecting it I found that my wires are the same colors as yours, a red with the emitter on one end, and a black and a white wire on the other end. I connected the lead with the alligator clip on it to the black side and the white wire to the on/off switch. For this application I'm sure it does not matter which is which as it is an isolated unit. Please post your progress and sorry again for the confusion.

Paul

Serows1 wrote:
"I don't think it matters which side is which because my power cord is reversible, I can plug it in either way like the old cords, and it works no matter which way it is plugged in."

The issue for me is not whether the device "works," but the risk its use may pose to the user of a device which, depending upon the polarity of the line cord, could expose the user to the hot side of 120 volt AC house wiring power supply.

Attaching the alligator clip to a wire on the supply side, especially if the plug on the line cord is not polarized correctly, means that the alligator clip during operation of the device could be at the same voltage as the hot side of house wiring. If the user touches the alligator clip, the user could serve, under the right conditions, as a path to ground. I'm anything but an expert, but that possibility is scary.

Either find a polarized cord and wire the alligator clip to the wide prong or get a 3 prong plug and wire the alligator clip to the neutral prong. Even if you don't use the ground prong you can't plug it in the wrong way.

Gene Anstine

The input is 120V, the output is 12V, this will never change, no matter what the polarity of the cord. As long as you don't come in contact with bare wires on the input side you could never get more than a 12V tingle. This is true with any appliance that has a 120V input. The same with your train transformer.

quote:

Originally posted by hookedontrains:
The issue for me is not whether the device "works," but the risk its use may pose to the user of a device which, depending upon the polarity of the line cord, could expose the user to the hot side of 120 volt AC house wiring power supply.

Attaching the alligator clip to a wire on the supply side, especially if the plug on the line cord is not polarized correctly, means that the alligator clip during operation of the device could be at the same voltage as the hot side of house wiring. If the user touches the alligator clip, the user could serve, under the right conditions, as a path to ground. I'm anything but an expert, but that possibility is scary.

I understand your concern so I called a buddy of mine who is an electronics repair technician and described to him what I built and the concerns. He doubted that it's output was high enough to cause harm but because I don't know what the amps are he's not sure how dangerous it really is.

Just to be on the safe side he said do not touch the screen or the grounded alligator clip when it is turned on or let the screen and the grounded alligator clip touch each other and we should be fine while using it. Just exercise caution while using it.

Paul

Serows1 (Paul) wrote:
"I understand your concern so I called a buddy of mine who is an electronics repair technician and described to him what I built and the concerns. He doubted that it's output was high enough to cause harm but because I don't know what the amps are he's not sure how dangerous it really is."

It's not the output of the device that poses a threat, but the alligator clip wire that attaches directly to the input of the device. If the line cord plug is not polarized, or the wall outlet is miswired, the alligator clip wire can be at the same potential as the hot side of house wiring--120 volts AC. If you touch the alligator clip under these conditions, a current may pass through you to ground. That's not good!

quote:

Originally posted by hookedontrains:
It's not the output of the device that poses a threat, but the alligator clip wire that attaches directly to the input of the device. If the line cord plug is not polarized, or the wall outlet is miswired, the alligator clip wire can be at the same potential as the hot side of house wiring--120 volts AC. If you touch the alligator clip under these conditions, a current may pass through you to ground. That's not good!

After sitting and thinking about this for a while I finally realized what your concern is. If the plug is reversed incorrectly the lead with the alligator clip will become hot possibly causing a bad shock if touched wrong when grounded whether the unit is on or not because it would be like grabbing the bare wire. Finally I get it .

Later tonight I will plug it in and measure the output from the alligator clip and the screen with the plug plugged in both ways using my volt meter and mark my plug so I know how to plug it in correctly and report my findings. Sorry for being so dense, I guess I've been lucky so far.

Paul

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Serows1,