Videos of the F3 in action.

Getting under way.
http://s230.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/GlennFresch/OG...current=MVI_2810.flv

Making transition.
http://s230.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/GlennFresch/OG...current=MVI_2811.flv


For those of you still considering buying these engines or those who just want to see the Lackawanna paint scheme here are some photos.

Of course, I know there will be a debate about the truck height, so feel free to compare these photos to the real thing.








In these it looks like the engine sits a bit high.


These next two demonstrate the close coupling between the units.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Glenn Fresch,

Absolutely gorgeous. I can't wait until they make them in the C&O paint scheme.

Thanks for posting these great photos Glenn. I've never seen the Atlas F-3's from this perspective so it really helps. They are real beauties but they do look like they sit about an 1/8"+ high like all other Atlas locos.

After seeing the Atlas locos up close I'm even happier with my Lionel scale F-3's. The Atlas come in two rail so they don't need to be converted like the Lionel but the Lionel actually look a little nicer to me.

Butch

This message has been edited. Last edited by: up148,

I have measured the height of the carbody lower sill from the railhead and compared it to plans in both MR and MM. It is correct at 4 scale feet. So, while it may look too high, it's not. There must be some other reason it doesn't look right. I'm still investigating.

Joe G.
OST Magazine

Nice photos! I am waiting for the B&O F7 version to be produced.

What I see that I don't care for, is that the headlight lens (see 4th image down in 1st post) protrudes out beyond the headlight "sheet metal". The lens is actually set back in in the real world. Also, the headlight appears to be vertically oriented in a "plumb" position. If you look at drawings for EMD F's, the top edge of the headlight (and surrounding sheet metal) appears to be slightly tilted back toward the rear. It pretty much follows the SAME angle of the nose sheet metal as it descends toward the pilot.

I recall reading somewhere that Pat Mucci of P&D Hobby shop mentioned that the engines were designed to match up with the original Atlas Roco F9's. The Roco unit shells were HARDLY a paragon of accuracy.

As for height of the engine, I would have to measure it before I would comment.

I don't think ANY of the plastic versions out there are right dead on. I'd say the original P&D was as good as any. That and $1 will get you a coffee.

SW

PS: If you want to see what I think looks right for that Bulldog nose, look at Wasatch Models ads with the IC E8 pictured.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Simon_Winter,

quote:

Originally posted by O_Mag_Publisher:
I have measured the height of the carbody lower sill from the railhead and compared it to plans in both MR and MM. It is correct at 4 scale feet. So, while it may look too high, it's not. There must be some other reason it doesn't look right. I'm still investigating.

Joe G.
OST Magazine

Could it be that because of previous problems with other engines, folks just ***-SUME this one will be the same? Do I detect some of the "box color" mentality?

SW

Now, if we could do something about those lousy Atlas Couplers

Simon,

Unless there really isn't about a scale foot+ of daylight showing between the top of the truck and the bottom of the shell sill in the photos then it might just be an asumption on my part. I don't have the model in my hand (to measure) so I can't give you a difinitive answer, but it doesn't look like an assumption to my eye.

It looks like this space should be about half what it is to match the prototype locomotive. My OMI F units don't have this much space. The KEY F units I once owned didn't have this much space. I own the "EMD F Unit" book, whose author I can't remember at this time, and none of those prototype "F" unit photos in the book have this much daylight showing.

And, I don't think I/we have a "box color" mentality thing going here. 2R'ers don't have a "Box Color" thing to my knowledge. We've had to learn to take any product we like from any manufacturer and make it right if we want it on our layout. I think "Box Color" might be a 3R thing. Unless your talking about OMI Green, Oriental Gold, Sunset Black/Gold, USH Purple, Westside and KEY Red, etc.

I believe Atlas might require this extra space above the truck for clearance of the 3R cookie cutter type wheels and because the 3R models run on smaller radius curves. This is an "assumption" on my part because Atlas denies the extra space exists so they don't tell us why its there.

Butch

Butch,

Yep, I would agree its the cookie cutter wheels that they have to account for. PSC also comes in Gold.

quote:

Originally posted by up148:
I think "Box Color" might be a 3R thing. Unless your talking about OMI Green, Oriental Gold, Sunset Black/Gold, USH Purple, Westside and KEY Red, etc.

I believe Atlas might require this extra space above the truck for clearance of the 3R cookie cutter type wheels and because the 3R models run on smaller radius curves. This is an "assumption" on my part because Atlas denies the extra space exists so they don't tell us why its there.

Butch

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Glenn Fresch:
Videos of the F3 in action.


In these it looks like the engine sits a bit high.

[QUOTE]

IMO the engine sits just fine. What is missing is the frame and bolster on the frame that sits on the truck.


It is the same thing with the MTH engines, missing frame componets that allow the airy look.

Greg

This view is the rear of an F7 but you can see how the frame and truck sit.

Greg

Hi Butch,

With those last three images (the model and the real WP engine) I can finally see what you are talking about and I agree that there does appear to be a tad bit of extra space. No way would I hazard a guess how much, but it sure appears to be there!

One other thing that is made clear in those shots (specifically the one of the WP nose) is my point about the angle of the upper headlight. Look at the lower headlight in the nose door and compare it to the upper one. The nose door light is oriented pretty much vertically, while the upper is tilted rearwards at it's top. I think Atlas, Lionel, MTH and P&D all suffer this flaw.

From what I've seen over the years, I think the late great Samhongsa did the best job capturing the bulldog facade, but then beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

SW

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Simon_Winter,

quote:

Now, if we could do something about those lousy Atlas Couplers

I wish they would too. I guess we'll just have to keep on changing them out.

quote:

And, I don't think I/we have a "box color" mentality thing going here. 2R'ers don't have a "Box Color" thing to my knowledge. We've had to learn to take any product we like from any manufacturer and make it right if we want it on our layout. I think "Box Color" might be a 3R thing. Unless your talking about OMI Green, Oriental Gold, Sunset Black/Gold, USH Purple, Westside and KEY Red, etc.

I believe Atlas might require this extra space above the truck for clearance of the 3R cookie cutter type wheels and because the 3R models run on smaller radius curves. This is an "assumption" on my part because Atlas denies the extra space exists so they don't tell us why its there.

Butch

Butch,
Well said. I agree with that. I'll buy any color box so long as I like the way it looks and it fits my budget.

You guys know my position on the Atlas Fs. I don't like all that air in between there. Problem is these engines are selling good so I doubt Atlas will change anything. If indeed as Joe says the hieght is correct, which I cannot see how that could be true, but if it is true then perhaps some sort of a view block would help so you can't see so much air in there. The air gap is not there on HO models.

John Dunn had a Lionel PRR AB F units down at the club last night. They were converted to 2 rail by Joe F and John also had someone install DCC/Sound. These engines looked great. Judging by eye the gap is less on the Lionel Fs than the Atlas Fs. Problem is when factoring in conversion costs and electronic costs I cannot afford the Lionel versions. Wow! $$$$$$$$

Greg, thanks for the shots of the real F3. I made your image into a transparency and superimposed it on my photo. When viewing this it becomes apparent that the trucks do sit close to the correct height. When viewing this image please keep in mind that my photos are taken with an extreme wide angle lens and this creates a distortion in the scale between the two photos. Thus, the failure of the photos to match directly is a result of this and not inaccuracies in the scale of the Atlas engine.

quote:

Originally posted by up148:
I think "Box Color" might be a 3R thing. Unless your talking about OMI Green, Oriental Gold, Sunset Black/Gold, USH Purple, Westside and KEY Red, etc.

Butch

Butch,

Dawns on me that maybe it IS a box thing after all! Maybe we are expecting BRASS quality at plastic prices!

Actually the nose problem would bother me more than the spacing thing, but as I said earlier, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. As for buying stuff that isn't "right", I'll pass and do without before taking something I don't like. This is a hobby and I really do not NEED any of it. Very little of this stuff is perfect if you look at it REALLY hard, but there is still quite a lot of it that pleases me. I wish you well in finding that which pleases you!

Best regards,
SW

quote:

Originally posted by pitogo:
Butch,

Yep, I would agree its the cookie cutter wheels that they have to account for. PSC also comes in Gold.

quote:

Originally posted by up148:
I think "Box Color" might be a 3R thing. Unless your talking about OMI Green, Oriental Gold, Sunset Black/Gold, USH Purple, Westside and KEY Red, etc.

I believe Atlas might require this extra space above the truck for clearance of the 3R cookie cutter type wheels and because the 3R models run on smaller radius curves. This is an "assumption" on my part because Atlas denies the extra space exists so they don't tell us why its there.

Butch

There's one minor correction. Three-rail flanges are not cookie cutters...they're pizza cutters.

That said, I'm really impressed by the looks, low-speed running and sound of those F-units.

It amazes me that people would complain as they do. Why not just contact Atlas and gripe. Funny, I don't see this griping so much and the Atlas web site. Atlas does a supreme job of bringing us SCALE locos that no one else has in plastic. sokwitrbellaching.

Dick

It is my understanding that the P&D units were tooled from EMD drawings and not a copy of a ROCO part. Mal Harvey, now deceased, did the tooling for Pat. They are generally accurate with some glaring errors in the slope of the nose (not sloped enough or at all) and the headlight opening is not pitched back at the right angle. It is a darn site better than most.
The real prize for accuracy is the Lionel China-built F-units. The apparently copied the CAD design for the Athearn/Highliner HO parts. If I didn't own a bunch of P&D units I would vote for Lionel unpowered units with P&D trucks/NWSL ball bearing gearboxes with P48 wheels and the right journals (not like the Atlas model).

Gene D

Gene,

Thanks for this information. As I said above and in previous threads the Lionel China built F units just appeared to be a better looking locomotive to me than anything I'd seen in plastic in O Scale so I bought an ABA set and had Joe F convert them to 2R. I couldn't really put my finger on what made them look so good except the model just seemed right as far as overall shape and the dimensions checked out favorably with my calipers. But, now I know why. As a clone to the Athearn Genesis models it was destined to be a winner.

I owned some of the Athearn Genesis HO F units when they 1st came out even though I hadn't modeled in HO for a long time. These locomotives were just so remarkable and the nicest looking models of an EMD F unit that I had to buy them. I sold them after displaying them a few months but they are still the high water mark for F units in any scale IMHO.

So, I thank you again for educating me as to the history behind the Lionel scale F units.

Butch

quote:

Originally posted by Gene D:
It is my understanding that the P&D units were tooled from EMD drawings and not a copy of a ROCO part. Mal Harvey, now deceased, did the tooling for Pat. They are generally accurate with some glaring errors in the slope of the nose (not sloped enough or at all) and the headlight opening is not pitched back at the right angle. Gene D

Hello Gene,

The problem is (as I mentioned earlier above) that the shells were made to be "compatible in appearance with former Atlas (as in Roco) and Atlas/P&D A units"

The Atlas/P&D unit mentioned in the above quote was a P&D knockoff of the Roco shell.

The quote above is taken DIRECTLY from the P&D add announcing the "NEW" locos. (See OSN #129 p. 4)

Mr Harvey may have used EMD drawings, but the nose appears to have been intentionally altered to match the Roco engine. I guess they figured folks wouldn't notice the lack of rearward slant in the headlight. A BIG mistake in my opinion.

As for the Lionel, IF it is an ACCURATE copy of the Athearn Genesis, it is right on.

Cheers,
SW

Hi All,
Weaver also builds diesels for both the 2 rail and 3 rail markets. How do they compare to the Atlas diesels and the prototype in height above the rails, gaps above the trucks, etc?
How does Weaver compare with their steam offerings as to wheel width, gauge of wheels, etc?
Regards,
Ed Kelly

Glenn, nice videos. Thanks for sharing.

From what I have seen of Weaver steam they are very nice models. I have seen some down at my club. I have a few of the older Weaver diesels with the chain drive and these have their advantages and disadvantages. They have much soother slow speed operation than the China drives but also sometimes require more maintenance. They also weigh less due to plastic frames and therefore usually cannot pull as many cars as the China drives. Weaver now only produces the China drives. Overall I think Weaver produces a great product especially their stem locomotives which from what I have seen run very well.

As for the F3 if it is at the correct height it still appears to my eye to be sitting too high and model railroading is nothing if it isn't all about illusion.

Glenn,

I've failed to ask and I'm very curious as to the camera you used for the still shots. They are super! The more I look at them the more impressed I am with the clarity, depth of field and color rendition. A lot of this can be attributed to the photographer but it also takes a great camera to take photos this good. Nice job!


Butch