I don't want to start a controversy here but I have been realistically considering a possible 2-rail layout. It will have to be small by 2-rail standards (I don't have a lot of room). Also, I'm a confirmed steam guy and have no interest in doing any diesels.

I have been lurking and very rarely posting on this side of the fence. I've noticed that there have been very many postings which discuss various brass makes from several years back. Lobaugh, KMT, Max Gray, All Nation, etc. As these are sometimes reasonably priced, I've looked at offerings on ebay and seen a few in person.

But what strikes me is that unless you are willing to put in a lot of work yourself and a top-notch paint job, the older models simply aren't up to the detail of the new stuff and as beginner, I'd be better off just buying something current.

This makes me wonder about the older freight cars. Is this also the case with them? Is the modern rolling stock also better "out of the box"? As someone who has not developed any level of sophistication regarding craftsmanship, should I instead look at the newer stuff?

If I'm wrong here, please guide me, I wouldn't mind saving a few hundred dollars, but I also consider my time to have some value too - I don't see any savings if I pay $800 for an old engine, have to remotor it, buy detail parts, paint it (and spend 100 hours on it!), etc. Or are there models out there with good detail and are ready to go and I'm just not familiar with them?

Especially as I want to be a runner more than a model-builder and I'm interested in doing DCC.

Dave,

Lots of questions that you are asking here.....

quote:

Originally posted by Dave0462:
I don't want to start a controversy here but I have been realistically considering a possible 2-rail layout. It will have to be small by 2-rail standards (I don't have a lot of room). Also, I'm a confirmed steam guy and have no interest in doing any diesels.

I have been lurking and very rarely posting on this side of the fence. I've noticed that there have been very many postings which discuss various brass makes from several years back. Lobaugh, KMT, Max Gray, All Nation, etc. As these are sometimes reasonably priced, I've looked at offerings on ebay and seen a few in person.

Yes, there are a few old models from Lobaugh, KTM, All Nation and others, and they are quite often in brass color and will require considerable amount of time to either remotor them, re-paint them or super detail them to the modern standards.

quote:

But what strikes me is that unless you are willing to put in a lot of work yourself and a top-notch paint job, the older models simply aren't up to the detail of the new stuff and as beginner, I'd be better off just buying something current.

What you just wrote is so true. Unless you have a lot of skills and patience, which apparently you don't have or do not wish to develop and foster, then you will have to either find excellent condition KTM engines (+$1000 easily), or buy new and modern engines from Sunset or 3rd Rail (the new company). These will be reliable, moderately priced (sometimes less than the old junk) and will come painted and very detailed.

quote:

This makes me wonder about the older freight cars. Is this also the case with them? Is the modern rolling stock also better "out of the box"? As someone who has not developed any level of sophistication regarding craftsmanship, should I instead look at the newer stuff?

Same here. Modern stuff is so neat that it will take a lot of craftsmanship and time and money to come even close. Only drawback, modern rolling stock is made of plastic, not brass, unless you are willing to pay $200 plus for a car.

quote:

If I'm wrong here, please guide me, I wouldn't mind saving a few hundred dollars, but I also consider my time to have some value too - I don't see any savings if I pay $800 for an old engine, have to remotor it, buy detail parts, paint it (and spend 100 hours on it!), etc. Or are there models out there with good detail and are ready to go and I'm just not familiar with them?

Especially as I want to be a runner more than a model-builder and I'm interested in doing DCC.

You are not wrong. Buy ready to run cars from MTH (2 Rails), K-Line, Atlas, maybe even some already assembled kits from Intermountain and put in the front of your consist a Sunset engine. You will have saved a lot of money, time, griefs and will enjoy the running side of the hobby.

Yves

quote:

Originally posted by Dave0462:
what strikes me is that unless you are willing to put in a lot of work yourself and a top-notch paint job, the older models simply aren't up to the detail of the new stuff and as beginner, I'd be better off just buying something current.

I'd approach it from the viewpoint of what do you want to model? If you can buy what you want ready to run from a current production then it's a lot easier but if you want something not produced now your only choice will be to find an old one. The old stuff can be made to run fine if you want the model bad enough and for a small layout there won't be a ton of locos to acquire new or used so fixing up one or two is no big deal if it gets you what you really want.
Same thing for freight cars, plastic cars are made in many styles nowdays but there's many more old wooden and metal cars banging around that have a classic railroady feel so I wouldn't overlook them.
I think most experienced modelers take a mix and match approach and end up with a variety similar to what is found on real railroads, new shiny cars mixed in with old beat up cars ...dave

I think Dave makes a good point about picking a railroad. I like just about every railroad and when I was in 3 rail I had examples from many. I had too many trains. If you don't have a focus then you'll have no limits in the number of models you can buy, painted, lettered and ready to go. You can easily stick to current production this way.

When I switched over I focused on 1 railroad and this thankfully limited offerings so I don't have boxes stacked to the ceiling but more than enough anyway. I look for anything, old or new for that 1 railroad. I'd rather not have to mess with fiddling or tinkering with the trains, but if necessary I'd do it, but I haven't had to do much of that. Most of my purchases have been more recent offerings and they've run great, painted nice and ready to go out of the box. I've bought older items that were at shows and off the internet that are well detailed, pro painted and lettered, and ready to run for prices of current production. Of all that I've bought only 1 is a poor runner, and it is notorious, so I bought it already knowing that it would be a basketcase. But it does run, but it is a loud meatgrinder.

If necessary, if an item was not made in 2 rail and has been made in 3 rail that I wanted, I would not hesitate to buy it and have it converted. This has not happened yet for the railroad I model and generally I've found more variety in 2 rail for the N&W specifically.

dear dave,as a owner of new and old brass locos,imho,nothing beats a us hobbies/max grey/toby/ktm for running qualities and overall great looks.since you plan on operating your steamers and not concerned if the sand domes have operating hatches,they are a best bet.also i have found a painter who does work for my friends and i at a cost of 175. to 225.per loco,dcc installation with decoder and sound is about 200. to 225.also,i see you live in south jersey,please feel free to email me or call me at 609-432-2871.i am also a member of the cherry valley club(dc/dcc) in merchantville and some of us meet on tuesday nights-regular club night is thursday-which some of us cannot attend due to commitments on thursday.you are welcome anytime.when you come to the club be prepared for us to put you to work. thank you. john p. dunn sr.

Both Dave and Christopher make a very good point - much depends on what it is that you want to model and what you want to achieve.

Like Christopher, I have a rather narrow focus on both RR and time period that sets limits on both types and sizes of engines. Unfortunately (or not...) almost nothing appropriate has been produced that I could use, so I'm using some older imports some of which are re-worked and some scratchbuilt engines - all steam. Fortunately, just enough variety of engines within my budget have been reasonably available (there is one yet that I'd like to add to the roster, but it's going to push the envelope a bit...), and since re-working & adding detail as needed to things is part of the fun for me, this works out just fine for me.

As for rolling stock, I find the periodic bargains, build whatever myself (frequently...), splurge (rarely, ), or just do without...

Dave,

I think Christopher has hit the nail on the head, Pick out a railroad(s) you like and start there. Then figure out what size minimum radius your layout space will handle (the larger the better for more loco choice options).

As for older brass, there's quite a bit of it out there, and you can find it in all conditions and states of finish. I'd check out some of the local clubs and 2 rail meets (Eastern O Scalers for one) and look around and see what you like. There's no time limit and getting there is half the fun. My main advice is be sure you like what you are doing. The more 2 rail stuff you can get out and see, the better you will be able to decide your preference. If you start NOT enjoying what you are doing, then it's time to change your direction. Only YOU can decide your preference.

Good Luck
SW

A perhaps different approach to consider...

Think about building the railroad and stocking it with modern offerings that appeal.

Then, once you're up and running, John Dunn and the boys will have you interested in learning some re-detailing, painting, mechanism, and kitbuilding skills. Putter on one of those lovely ol' USH engines, take a break and run some trains; not a bad life.

Your long-term interest will grow as you explore. You have a lifetime of satisfaction to seize here, so don't feel you have to learn and enjoy all these new aspects and skills before you go to bed tonight.

Savor it.

Let me clarify a bit, as I appreciate the comments and would like to focus a little tighter.

I figure the absolute widest curve I can have is 36". Otherwise, the room isn't big enough for anything except a circle. In the center I was figuring on a yard with some switching opportunities. I'm also thinking of adding a 0n30 logging branch as a dog-bone on a hill.

I'd like to do an eastern road that would have some lumber business - maybe on the order of Rutland or MEC? Get a mogul or a consolidation to pull short freights? Circa 1910-1930? Any recommendations on models for these roads? Can those types of engines handle anything tighter than 36"?

As far as joining a club, I appreciate the offer, but I'm just not a joiner because my life schedule is not easily fitted to regular meetings, etc. This is especially true as I plan to move out of NJ in less than a year (another reason I don't want complex rebuild projects) and I'd like to experiment with this layout, learn DCC and eventually do something more advanced in the new location.

Hopefully the anvil of the gods won't frown on me for taking this position but I don't think I'd look back any further than US Hobbies for a brass locomotive. The Lobaughs, Max Grays, All Nations and other mfgs locomotives from the 40's,50's and 60's had not evolved to the point of the US Hobbies locos. Nothing wrong with the earlier locos and they can be made to be fine runners and well detailed models but not right out of the box. Even the detail and castings on the US Hobbies locos can be a little sparse and oversize but these engines run great right out of the box and even better with a can motor upgrade which is a fairly simple project and they are built like tanks so they'll be running long after we're gone. Some of the toughest locos ever built IMHO.

They are generally very affordable as well. I see a US Hobbies USRA 0-8-0 on e--- that is repowered by Cockerham and has a starting bid of $500 which is a steal. It not only will pull the wallpaper off the wall but will run like a swiss watch for decades. So, there are buys to be had if you keep your eyes open.

I think the plastic cars being offered by Atlas, Weaver some scale Lionel and MTH cars with a few kits by RC or IM are all you will ever need for your railroad. The plastic models of today are equal to or superior to most brass models of only a few years ago. Technology has really leveled the playing field in the rolling stock department and even in the plastic diesels being offered by the mfgs listed above. The only locos you need to buy in brass these days are steam engines and the mfgs are trying to change that too.

Butch H.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave0462:
Get a mogul or a consolidation to pull short freights? Circa 1910-1930? Any recommendations on models for these roads? Can those types of engines handle anything tighter than 36"?

Sounds like you have space constraints not unlike my own as well as have an interest in an era not all that much later than mine, too.

My curves are a good bit tighter than than and I run 2-6-0 moguls and a couple of 2-8-0's - the consol's have blinded center drivers.

What you're looking at certainly can be done, but will take a bit of effort.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave0462:
As far as joining a club, I appreciate the offer, but I'm just not a joiner because my life schedule is not easily fitted to regular meetings, etc. This is especially true as I plan to move out of NJ in less than a year (another reason I don't want complex rebuild projects) and I'd like to experiment with this layout, learn DCC and eventually do something more advanced in the new location.

Dave,

I meant VISIT for ideas and inspiration. At clubs you will see all types of equipment and meet people who can tell you about it. Same thing with shows, such as the EOS meets.....they are a great place to see things and get ideas!

SW

Atlas O is releasing their 0-6-0 steam switcher for around 600.00 I saw the 3 rail offerings some time ago and they were beautiful and I am sure that they can take a tight radius.

Dick

Brass engines are nice IF YOU GET A GOOD ONE. I have been in the hobby for over fifty years and have owned many brass engines. They are nice to look at but unless you get them professionally painted and tweaked they can be a bit rough. I prefer diecast engines as being adequately detailed yet sturdy enough for putting in the miles in daily use. I own at least three brass three rail O scale brass engines. Only one can operate as reliably as my diecast engines. Also there are smaller prototypes available in diecast. I have one scale 4-4-0, one scale 2-6-0, three scale 2-8-0s, two 0-4-0s and one two truck Shay all in diecast and all nicely detailed and good runners......and they are cheaper than brass engines. Don't limit yourself. Odd-d

Regarding the two rail Atlas 0-6-0, I have been told by two different folks that own them that their drivers are not in gage ( they are tight) and their tires are wider than the maximum NMRA standard (0.172"). The fellow who contacted me from Canada tried to run one at the Toronto club and it derailed a couple of times going through switches. When he sent it back to Atlas he was told by them that they were all made this way and that there was nothing to be done. A friend here in Maryland has one and is quite pleased with it and has had no derailing problems but confirmed to me that the gage is tight and the wheel treads are extra wide. So, if you are considering this model just be aware of this.

Joe

I seems rather sad major current manufactuers of O scale/gauge trains are ignoring the NMRA standards for wheels and track. These standards assure interchangability and uniformity so that wheels and track made by anyone should all work together.

However it seems of late that each maker is setting up their own proprietary system for track and wheels. This is to assure a 'captive' clientele and market I think, and is not in the over-all best interest of the hobby.

Joe tells us of the tight gauge and wide drivers on the Atlas 0-6-0. My guess is that this may relate somehow to the overly wide gauge of track used on Atlas bridges. While I cannot speak about Atlas switches (I build my own to NMRA standards), I understand there may be some issues about them, with repsect to the trucks and wheels by other makers passing through.

Over on the three rail side it seems the same. I recently read of problems when mixing other makers' trains and track. It was issues like these in the 1930's that brought about the NMRA and the standards it promotes.

Ed Bommer

quote:

Originally posted by Dave0462:

I figure the absolute widest curve I can have is 36". Otherwise, the room isn't big enough for anything except a circle.

36 inch radius will limit you to small locos unless you go with 3 rail which might be the best option if you want to put a lot of track in a small space.Another option would be to build in S scale instead, the slight size reduction allows a lot more scenery.
A circle around the outside of the room always gives the maximum curve radius. Twice around the room often works fine in a small room, using some of the center space for a peninsula yard or industrial area. What is your room dimension? Someone on here has probably built a layout in a similar space and can tell you what fit and how it worked......dave

Thanks for the continuing good advice.

I have been thinking about diecast. In fact, I was considering a Weaver 2-8-0. I've seen comments on the 3-rail side about the engine, but can anyone tell me about it from the 2-rail point of view? Also, this observation regarding the Atlas 0-6-0 is of some concern, can any one confirm this?

As far as small brass is concerned, I've seen several models which would probably be fine - I think that the look of brass, the thinness of the parts gives it a more realistic look over the best diecast. That's why I started this thread, because I am inclined to brass and am seeking advice...

Regarding suggestions of 3-rail, I know about space considerations and 3-rail. In fact I've been in 3-rail since childhood. My most recent 3-rail layout had 0-42 and 0-54 curves.

The fact is that it has been due to space that I've not taken the leap into 2-rail earlier.

But I think its time. Like I said, I believe I can do a small layout and make it more interesting by having both small steam and 0n30. I really like those Bachmann models and I want to try DCC. I was figuring to start with their "EZ-DCC".

I just added DCC and Sound to my two Weavers. Running wise, once broken in, they are fine. Since I model my own road I was not worried about the specific look of the unit. There is a lot that could be added.

Here are some pix of the DCC conversion http://rdsrr.com/Photos/DCC/

And here is a quick video with the sound around a 64" curve.

quote:

And here is a quick video with the sound around a 64" curve.

Let's try this again...


And here is a quick video with the sound around a 64" curve.

http://rdsrr.com/Photos/Video/rdsrr_2214.flv.php

quote:

Originally posted by Dave0462:
Thanks for the continuing good advice.

I have been thinking about diecast. In fact, I was considering a Weaver 2-8-0. I've seen comments on the 3-rail side about the engine, but can anyone tell me about it from the 2-rail point of view? Also, this observation regarding the Atlas 0-6-0 is of some concern, can any one confirm this?

Dave,

Have you considered 2-railing a Lionel scale 2-6-0? I've got the Wabash model and she's a beaut...Baldwin Forge (?) offers this service...

I've also got a Weaver 2 Rail undecorated 2-8-0 still sealed that I'd part with...I'm not trying to turn this thread into the buy/sell board, but if you're interested in the Consol, let me know...

Brian

quote:

Originally posted by rrjjf:
Regarding the two rail Atlas 0-6-0, I have been told by two different folks that own them that their drivers are not in gage ( they are tight) and their tires are wider than the maximum NMRA standard (0.172"). The fellow who contacted me from Canada tried to run one at the Toronto club and it derailed a couple of times going through switches. When he sent it back to Atlas he was told by them that they were all made this way and that there was nothing to be done. A friend here in Maryland has one and is quite pleased with it and has had no derailing problems but confirmed to me that the gage is tight and the wheel treads are extra wide. So, if you are considering this model just be aware of this.

Joe

I guess we should petition NWSL for replacement drivers (& P:48 drivers) real fast before they go out of business!

IMHO older brass freight cars really aren't bad. They usually lack the multi-dimensional details of the newer cars since the early processes were usually stamped or single layer etching. And they often lack full underbody detail such as piping and rodding.

If you are willing to learn the art of unsoldering and soldering details (and it IS an art and a difficult one if you want to be neat) there are some bargains to be had in the Max Gray/USH line of cars in particular. Ditto for detailing locos, some times redetailing and re-drivelining an older Max Gray/USH piece (or an even older mfr) is the only way to go.

A craftsman at the soldering iron with brass details and wire (and a riveter to make some brass details) is an art to behold.

But in answer to your original question, an R-T-R Atlas X-29 box car/H21a hopper car, a Lionel #170## offset side hopper car or those oh so gorgeous Lionel 1738# PFE reefers are light years ahead of older brass or older 30's to 60's era model kits such as Athearn. The new releases are museum pieces compared to the old stuff.

IMHO it is possible to have a nice small steam-era pike and well-detailed and accurate car collection without going broke. Atlas master series and Lionel standard O make this possible. Sprinkle in a few nice plastic kits from Intermountain/Red Caboose/San Juan Car Company and you'll be set.

Very few well detailed RTR steam engines and even fewer beautiful affordable superdetailed cabeese other than brass. Hopefully Lionel will be doing the standard northeastern caboose in the superdetailed version, since the current versions (Weaver,etc.) are not up to the current level of quality that we have come to expect in the year 2008.

PS, soon San Juan will be offering the "Gramps" tank car in RTR. With enough petitioning I am sure they would do the standard gauge version of this beautiful steam era car.

If the Atlas 0-6-0 driver tires are separate from the center castings, this should be an easy problem to correct with a little machine work. No need for driver castings. I have machined hundreds of 3 rail drivers into two rail drivers. I use 0.160" as a total tire width with a 0.045" flange. A little smaller than the NMRA max.

Joe